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Diploid
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The Definitive Chi Test
#14273849 - 04/11/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Chi practitioners make a big show of knocking down groups of people from a distance with their chi.
So why can't any of them knock over something like a lamp from a distance with their chi?
A quick YouTube search finds almost a half million chi videos, but NOT ONE SINGLE VIDEO of someone knocking over an inanimate object that doesn't possess group psychology and herd behavior. Like a lamp.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14273975 - 04/11/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lamps have amazing amounts of S-Rays.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14274971 - 04/11/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think you have to know what Qi actually is before you ridicule it. Westerners tend to exaggerate generalizations anyways, so i don't blame you for your ignorance.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14275324 - 04/11/11 10:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who would tell you the same thing on hearing YOUR definition.
That's one of the problems with the whole concept. Ask 100 people, and get 100 different definitions for the same thing.
This also happens with definitions for "soul", "god", "heaven", "hell", "purgatory" and pretty much all the other mystic-head words.
Everyone knows it's real, but no one can even agree on what it is.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
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Lamps have amazing amounts of S-Rays.
Nah, I think it's that lamps can cross their toes and their tongue to nullify chi. I have this on expert authority. 
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14275489 - 04/11/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who would tell you the same thing on hearing YOUR definition.
That's one of the problems with the whole concept. Ask 100 people, and get 100 different definitions for the same thing.
This also happens with definitions for "soul", "god", "heaven", "hell", "purgatory" and pretty much all the other mystic-head words.
Everyone knows it's real, but no one can even agree on what it is.
well maybe you're asking the wrong people. 100 idiots won't give you the same answers as 100 experts.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14275788 - 04/11/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ask 100 people and they'll all claim to be experts. Like you, eh?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Noteworthy
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14275910 - 04/12/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am thoroughly aggrivated with the lack of good qi demonstrations in martial arts. Ive seen so many videos of 'masters' pushing people over with ease. However the volunteers are always cooperative people and the videos never show failed attempts. There seems no reason such techniques could not be used in an actual fight, so I can't see why a qi-warrior wouldnt display their moves in an actual combat. This has never been shown.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14275915 - 04/12/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Ask 100 people and they'll all claim to be experts. Like you, eh?
never claimed to be an expert. for all you know, i'm just an idiot.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Noteworthy]
#14275921 - 04/12/11 12:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: I am thoroughly aggrivated with the lack of good qi demonstrations in martial arts. Ive seen so many videos of 'masters' pushing people over with ease. However the volunteers are always cooperative people and the videos never show failed attempts. There seems no reason such techniques could not be used in an actual fight, so I can't see why a qi-warrior wouldnt display their moves in an actual combat. This has never been shown.
well, good luck, monks are forbidden to fight. doubt you'll ever find a good demonstration...
best bet: go to china yourself. fight a shaolin monk. see if your qi can match his.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14276009 - 04/12/11 12:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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He might just beat me with non-qi methods
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Mufungo
Coming at ya


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14276519 - 04/12/11 04:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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And here's a vid of a "non-believer" being able to knock a guy down.. and then helps the guy recover from the "blow" by saying "It's all in your mind"..
If a someone can replicate the results without believing in chi, then...??? 
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14276554 - 04/12/11 04:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'm pretty sure there are lots of people who would tell you the same thing on hearing YOUR definition.
That's one of the problems with the whole concept. Ask 100 people, and get 100 different definitions for the same thing.
This also happens with definitions for "soul", "god", "heaven", "hell", "purgatory" and pretty much all the other mystic-head words.
Everyone knows it's real, but no one can even agree on what it is.
Hmm, just like quantum theories...
But I would not bring Derren Brown into argument, because he is a well known faker.
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Edited by Simms (04/12/11 04:57 AM)
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14276863 - 04/12/11 08:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Chi practitioners make a big show of knocking down groups of people from a distance with their chi.
So why can't any of them knock over something like a lamp from a distance with their chi?
A quick YouTube search finds almost a half million chi videos, but NOT ONE SINGLE VIDEO of someone knocking over an inanimate object that doesn't possess group psychology and herd behavior. Like a lamp.
absolutely not a definitive chi test.
Quote:
Chi, the naturally circulating energy of the Universe. Chi permeates all things, including the human body, and you can feel it as a charge, an actual electrical warmth even between your two hands. Our movement in dance, alone or with an equally charged partner, benefits from important principles for the proper flow of Chi as developed in T’ai Chi, and spread through salsa space as Clave carves the time.
Just as we flow through the changes of life (or not), our Chi flows through us (or not), and through our dance (or not). To dance with Chi means to move in a relaxed, mindful, flowing fashion to the music, with the poise of joyful presence, without stress or blocked energies. T'ai Chi points in the direction of harmony and flow, balance and counter balance, continuity, and mindful delight.
chi permeates all things...like magic. Magic permeates all things, but that still does not make david blaine anything more than a showman, and if I believe that I can throw chicken bone under your house and you will be cursed, then that is my own superstition. I always thought Chi was less of a thing to be performed, and more just a word to describe subtle energies all around us and within us.
but, since I (or you) may be wrong about that, I'm certainly not going to say what is the "DEFINITIVE" chi anything
conflict of definitions? or are threads titled like this for ego games?
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14276920 - 04/12/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmm, just like quantum theories...
You've been misinformed. There is complete agreement on what quantum physics is and how it works. All the equations are well-known and understood and there is consensus. It is the most successful theory in the history of science.
It is precisely because engineers and physicists all agree that quantum physics can give us the hard drive, CPU and memory chips in your computer, the MRI machines that save lives in hospitals, and the lasers that carry this message to your eyes right now.
you can feel it as a charge
I don't feel shit. And neither do instruments that can detect charge.
I always thought Chi was less of a thing to be performed, and more just a word to describe subtle energies all around us and within us.
So much for all the practitioners PERFORMING it by knocking down gullible people on YouTube. But not a single one knocking down the non-gullible skeptic in the video I linked... or a lamp. 
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14277402 - 04/12/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
So much for all the practitioners PERFORMING it by knocking down gullible people on YouTube. But not a single one knocking down the non-gullible skeptic in the video I linked... or a lamp.
"chi" does not = "knocking down a man from a distance"
i don't see anybody trying to knock anybody down from a distance in acupuncture, which also deals with chi
again, you're criticizing the david blaines but that doesnt mean jimi hendrix's music isn't magic. I guess that's just my take on it, but again, most traditional "chi" involves energy that permeates all things. Perhaps Jesus (if there ever was one) was proverbial when he said "I" or "God", and chi "masters" are like popes of catholic churches.

con artists? insane cult leaders? who knows. I don't believe these acts can be performed until I see them and such, but I don't see how if this knocking-over act is false, then no interpretation or application of "chi" throughout history has ever been valid
but then again most of today's concept of "chi" involves lasers and hadoukens, so carry on
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
Edited by the bizzle (04/12/11 11:07 AM)
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: the bizzle]
#14277540 - 04/12/11 11:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"chi" does not = "knocking down a man from a distance"
An internationally recognized "chi master" does it in the link I provided ^^^ up there and goes on to expound on what chi is at length.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14277639 - 04/12/11 12:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
and goes on to expound on what chi is at length.
historically, different sects, traditions, and "masters" have had their own ideas of just exactly what "chi" is.
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: the bizzle]
#14277655 - 04/12/11 12:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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historically, different sects, traditions, and "masters" have had their own ideas of just exactly what "chi" is.
Thanks for making one of my points. When acknowledge masters can't even agree on what it is, then it's some self-contradicting made up mish-mash that doesn't exist except in the head of the each person.
Otherwise, everyone would be able to see the same thing and agree on its definition.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14277669 - 04/12/11 12:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Zero-point energy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Zero-point energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical physical system may have; it is the energy of its ground state. All quantum mechanical systems undergo fluctuations even in their ground state and have an associated zero-point energy, a consequence of their wave-like interaction. Because of the uncertainty principle, every physical system (even at absolute zero temperature) has a zero-point energy that is greater than the minimum of its potential well. Liquid helium-4 (4He) remains liquid—it does not freeze—under atmospheric pressure no matter how low its temperature is, because of its zero-point energy. The concept of zero-point energy was developed in Germany by Albert Einstein and Otto Stern in 1913, using a formula developed by Max Planck in 1900.[1][2] The term zero-point energy originates from the German Nullpunktsenergie.[1][2] The German name is also spelled Nullpunktenergie (without the "s") Vacuum energy is the zero-point energy of all the fields in space, which in the Standard Model includes the electromagnetic field, other gauge fields, fermionic fields, and the Higgs field. It is the energy of the vacuum, which in quantum field theory is defined not as empty space but as the ground state of the fields. In cosmology, the vacuum energy is one possible explanation for the cosmological constant.[3] The variation in zero-point energy as the boundaries of a region of vacuum move leads to the Casimir effect, which is observable in nanoscale devices. A related term is zero-point field, which is the lowest energy state of a particular field.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14277682 - 04/12/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14277799 - 04/12/11 12:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Zero-point energy
Are you talking to me? Cuz I have no idea what you're on about.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14277862 - 04/12/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes Diploid. Quantum Mechanics proves that there is even energy in the ground states.
You, are imposing your own definition of Chi on others.
Quote:
Diploid said: Hmm, just like quantum theories...
You've been misinformed. There is complete agreement on what quantum physics is and how it works. All the equations are well-known and understood and there is consensus. It is the most successful theory in the history of science.
It is precisely because engineers and physicists all agree that quantum physics can give us the hard drive, CPU and memory chips in your computer, the MRI machines that save lives in hospitals, and the lasers that carry this message to your eyes right now.
you can feel it as a charge
I don't feel shit. And neither do instruments that can detect charge.
I always thought Chi was less of a thing to be performed, and more just a word to describe subtle energies all around us and within us.
So much for all the practitioners PERFORMING it by knocking down gullible people on YouTube. But not a single one knocking down the non-gullible skeptic in the video I linked... or a lamp. 
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14277922 - 04/12/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quantum Mechanics proves that there is even energy in the ground states.
So what? What does that have to do with chi?
You, are imposing your own definition of Chi on others.
No, I'm using the definition given by an internationally recognized chi master (George Dillman). Are you reading the same thread I am?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14277928 - 04/12/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: historically, different sects, traditions, and "masters" have had their own ideas of just exactly what "chi" is.
Thanks for making one of my points. When acknowledge masters can't even agree on what it is, then it's some self-contradicting made up mish-mash that doesn't exist except in the head of the each person.
Otherwise, everyone would be able to see the same thing and agree on its definition.
yes, and no.
your first line is somewhat correct but your second line is making a bold assumption. Throughout history we have all seen the sun and the moon and agree that they are there but not necessarily agreed upon just exactly what it is or what it does. But this is even more difficult because what we are talking about are subtle energies that are invisible to the eye. Your eye doesn't see infrared, or sound waves does it? Sounds common today but not too long ago it was beyond realistic imagination
i really don't care about chi anymore, but your "everyone would be able to see the same thing and agree on its definition" comment doesn't hold up. We don't agree on exactly what the moon is and we don't all see the same thing when we read these forum posts.
I just hope that as a scientist, you would like to be more of a pioneer than merely a skeptic. To be a pioneer, at some point you will have to go beyond what is agreed upon.
"The only real valuable thing is intuition." --Albert Einstein. I find that people's minds get more twisted by definitions. They are more abstract and require more complex patterns of approaching any issue. Like a child being told what God is. "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
it's not that our position on chi is in conflict, its just that something about your attitude leaves me skeptical
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14277984 - 04/12/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Quantum Mechanics proves that there is even energy in the ground states. So what? What does that have to do with chi?
Your definition of Chi is confused.
Quote:
Diploid said: You, are imposing your own definition of Chi on others.
No, I'm using the definition given by an internationally recognized chi master (George Dillman). Are you reading the same thread I am?
Then please define Chi.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: the bizzle]
#14278021 - 04/12/11 01:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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its just that something about your attitude leaves me skeptical
This is the most sophomoric of all the fallacies.
What does my attitude have to do with the validity of my statements? That's right, nothing at all. If I say that the sky is blue with a bad attitude, does that make me wrong?
It's usually when people bring out the ad hominem instead of debating the issue on the table that I can tell their position doesn't hold water, and they know it. So in frustration, they lash out at me instead of my argument.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14278035 - 04/12/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Then please define Chi.
Please read what I type. I am not defining chi. I'm using the definition given by a chi master.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14278084 - 04/12/11 01:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Umm yeah . . . You never explained or stated the definition of Chi in it's broadness.
Your entire argument is worthless to argue without a definitive basis.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14278109 - 04/12/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Your entire argument is worthless to argue without a definitive basis.
That's why I linked a video early on where the chi master demonstrates chi and discusses it at length.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14278122 - 04/12/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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This isn't post a video as evidence debate?
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14278126 - 04/12/11 01:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Jesus, you can't be pleased. I'm not posting the video to debate. I'm posting it to establish the definition of what we're debating. That's what you keep whining about right? A lack of definition (even though I provided it... twice)?
Here, I'll make it easy. Here's the link again. What is in that video is the definition of chi given by an internationally recognized chi master and the working definition for this thread:
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14278169 - 04/12/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Jesus, you can't be pleased. I'm not posting the video to debate. I'm posting it to establish the definition of what we're debating. That's what you keep whining about right? A lack of definition (even though I provided it... twice)?
Here, I'll make it easy. Here's the link again. What is in that video is the definition of chi given by an internationally recognized chi master and the working definition for this thread:
No definition.
I've heard the word Chi, but I still haven't heard it defined, by the person you claimed is thier definition, and you don't appear to even know what that definition is?
They give credit to Chi for thier power, so?
Edited by teknix (04/12/11 01:59 PM)
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14278188 - 04/12/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Lamps have amazing amounts of S-Rays.
Nah, I think it's that lamps can cross their toes and their tongue to nullify chi. I have this on expert authority. 
Does not define Chi.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14278191 - 04/12/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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He states clearly what it is and demonstrates it repeatedly by knocking down people but strangely never by knocking down a lamp or similar object.
I'm not going to spoon feed you a transcript. If you can't figure out the definition when the guy tells it right to the camera, there's nothing I can do to help.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14278195 - 04/12/11 02:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Your argument is invalid without a basis.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14278312 - 04/12/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alright, seems I DO have to spoon feed you: 
Transcribed direct from the chi master, chi is a "radio wave" that:
"is the basis of the power of practitioners of the martial arts... it flows throughout the body, without it you don't function. It can put the largest person in the world on the floor without having to touching them. Chi is like electrical circuitry. It is warmer than the environment. It can be dangerous and can 'flatline' people. It can move walls of people from 10 feet away. It can knock people out without touching any part of their body."
Satisfied?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14278390 - 04/12/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Alright, seems I DO have to spoon feed you: 
Transcribed direct from the chi master, chi is a "radio wave" that:
"is the basis of the power of practitioners of the martial arts... it flows throughout the body, without it you don't function. It can put the largest person in the world on the floor without having to touching them. Chi is like electrical circuitry. It is warmer than the environment. It can be dangerous and can 'flatline' people. It can move walls of people from 10 feet away. It can knock people out without touching any part of their body."
Satisfied?
No, that's an improper quote. Doesn't even include the author!
What he is initially refering to is the zero-point. The source of everything and nothing.
In the bolded part he goes on and talks about it being warmer than the environment, which is a specific type of chi. The knocking out part is too a specific type of chi (or lack of).
If one has no chi flow, limiting it (or removing it) will do nothing.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14278430 - 04/12/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alright man. I've bent over backward giving you what you want.
I'm not doing the neener neener debate with you any more.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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akira_akuma
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14288294 - 04/14/11 02:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Ask 100 people and they'll all claim to be experts. Like you, eh?
nice personalizing.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: akira_akuma]
#14288741 - 04/14/11 07:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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You mean he's NOT an expert?
Then why is he correcting my definition of chi if he's no more qualified in the topic than I am?
Also, you would do well to read the Fallacies of Philosophical Debate sticky where you'll learn that questioning someone's status as an expert when it goes to the validity of their argument is not a personalism or ad hominem in that narrow case.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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g00ru
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14288930 - 04/14/11 08:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Chi practitioners make a big show of knocking down groups of people from a distance with their chi.
So why can't any of them knock over something like a lamp from a distance with their chi?
A quick YouTube search finds almost a half million chi videos, but NOT ONE SINGLE VIDEO of someone knocking over an inanimate object that doesn't possess group psychology and herd behavior. Like a lamp.
thats not really the most important thing to understand about chi
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: g00ru]
#14289039 - 04/14/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Uh what? The fact that chi completely fails to do what recognized chi masters claim it can do is not the most important thing about it?
If a pharmaceutical company develops a new cancer drug that fails 100% of its trials, wouldn't that be the most important thing about it?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Simms
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14289298 - 04/14/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I feel the need to quote myself from Randis Prize thread, since neither Samurai Drifter nor anyone else has given me reasonable explanation about the fakeness of the claim these videos are trying to make:
Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Diploid said: If anyone can prove to me that this is fake, or what I experienced was fake or can provide me with a resource that shows how it is done, I'm all ears and open to it.
Ever notice that these people ALWAYS use some sort of props and that they set them up themselves, not a neutral observer.
The guy who appears to light newspaper on fire with his chi is shown in the video as the same person who tears the paper and balls it up before holding his hand over it and it bursts into flames. Coincidence? Nope. How else to use slight of hand to add a hypergolic chemical (read: it burns on contact with air) to the newspaper as he balls it up.
The guy in your video wraps some aluminum foil in paper towel and a few minutes later it's up to 200F. He doesn't do it to a thermometer laying in plain view on a table. He doesn't have one of the film makers do it. He does it himself. Coincidence? of course not.
Not an actual proof that it is fake, just a hypothesis.
I keep my mouth shut now, just post some more interesting videos:
Click to watch all 5 parts and to see subtitles.
More:
I posted this a year ago in some other thread, but I could not find the original video, so you'd have to see it crappier and without sound until me or someone else manages to find it again:
Actually a suitable material for Chi thread. Although Spetsnaz guys call it Ether, which scientific term is Aether, which has been thoroughly studied by Lorenz and Einstein after him. Nikola Tesla supposedly did experiments with aether. Einstein claimed that Aether is kind of immobile "energy", to put it simple, so I really do not know how this applies here. But the description of "immobile" doesn't mean that it can not influence stuff around it, which Einstein agrees with. Then again science can always be wrong, even the term itself keeps changing over time, as it did from middle ages, through 18 century until today. Maybe we are all just blinded like people were in the Middle Ages, we will not know until we are somehow out of it. Einsteins Theory of Relativity proves to be right, but there are actually so many variations of it and all of them prove true in some levels.
Russian mix of fighting styles, called Systema, which uses suggestive combat psychology and body pressure points amongst other things. Russia is a big country and there are many forms of Systema fighting, some of it is applied in Spetznas, which mastery also varies from region to region.
Now, there, we actually see this thing called "chi" applied to static enviornment, nonanimated things we call them. I propose that chi, whatever it actually is, affects humans the same way it affects other things, through heat in various points, humans react to it, their nervous system reacts and they pull away, eg fall or retreat and get distracted.
I have called an explanation for these videos before in these forums, and not gotten any, so I call again. This applies to both chi believers and non-believers. If you think there is chi involved in these videos, would you please elaborate and describe the processes involved. As right now, a year and a half later, I am still not sure enough to pick certain sides as these videos leave me baffled.
--------------------
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14289327 - 04/14/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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As right now, a year and a half later, I am still not sure enough to pick certain sides as these videos leave me baffled.
Can you explain how David Coperfield makes elephants vanish on stage before a live audience?
Does that leave you undecided about whether it was an illusion or actual magic?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Simms
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14289340 - 04/14/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: As right now, a year and a half later, I am still not sure enough to pick certain sides as these videos leave me baffled.
Can you explain how David Coperfield makes elephants vanish on stage before a live audience?
Does that leave you undecided about whether it was an illusion or actual magic?
David Copperfield never claimed it was magic. You make claim that is completely irrelevant to this topic, as this is not about turning me into a believer or non-believer. This is a discussion of Chi. If you think these videos are illusion, a trick, explain and give some proof if possible.
--------------------
Edited by Simms (04/14/11 10:54 AM)
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14289521 - 04/14/11 11:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The title says it all. He is using a narrow term to try to disprove the broader term. He obviously has no Idea what he is talking about.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14289755 - 04/14/11 12:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Once again, it's not me talking. It's an acknowledge chi master. Why is this so difficult to grasp?
All I'm doing is pointing out that the chi master can't do what he says he can do (apply a force from a distance) except with biased participants (his students).
Point of fact, when he tried to push a skeptic without touching as shown in the video, he failed miserably and blamed his failure on the skeptic's tongue.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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g00ru
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14290080 - 04/14/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Uh what? The fact that chi completely fails to do what recognized chi masters claim it can do is not the most important thing about it?
If a pharmaceutical company develops a new cancer drug that fails 100% of its trials, wouldn't that be the most important thing about it?
that's all fanciful poo. I think in theory it is possible to blast somebody with chi DBZ style but not something you're gonna encounter in everyday life, and probably not on this planet. My understanding of chi really has more to do with the habits of my day to day life, how choices i make effect my energy and disposition, and how some actions give me more energy, allow me to sleep less and move more fluidly through my day, accomplish more, etc.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: g00ru]
#14290274 - 04/14/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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My understanding of chi really has more to do with
Your understanding of chi is in direct contradiction to an internationally acknowledged chi master.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14293571 - 04/15/11 12:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, you win diploid! You are the greatest debater to step foot at the shroomery!
How about positing a premise that we might debate. Rather than cherry picking an instance where the master's chi did not work. I see way more examples of it working than not.
Your proof is nothing.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14293595 - 04/15/11 12:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I see way more examples of it working than not.
Of it working on something other than people who are susceptible to all sorts of group psychology and herd behavior, like the chi master's students?
Show me the link.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14293599 - 04/15/11 12:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The burden is not on me, it's obvious cherry picking.
Prove that the students were manipulated.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14293602 - 04/15/11 12:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I already explained why it wouldn't workon someone who had no chi flow.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14293617 - 04/15/11 12:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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You throw that out that you see lots of examples, and when I ask for one, you back out. That's par for the course here.
The burden is not on me... Prove that the students were manipulated.
I did that already.
In the video, the students of the chi master fall on command, but when a neutral skeptic who is not a student stands up against the chi master, nothing happens.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14293622 - 04/15/11 12:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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What you have is a video of it working and not working, which is inconclusive evidence and only says that more experiments must be done. It is not decisive by any means.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14293625 - 04/15/11 12:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The fact that of the half million chi videos on YouTube, not ONE SINGLE VIDEO shows it working on a skeptic or inanimate object is inconclusive?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14293645 - 04/15/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I posted a video of it working in both manners, innanimate objects with spectators and critics, as well as your own post of it working more thn not working.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14293680 - 04/15/11 12:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anyways, I'm going to pass out now. I'll post a rebuttal to your actual premise (if you have one) later.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14293793 - 04/15/11 01:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I posted a video of it working in both manners
No, you posted a video of a guy physically TOUCHING, TEARING, and BALLING UP a newspaper which then caught fire. Try again.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14293812 - 04/15/11 01:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Look brah, hundreds of really crappy videos = one great video. Remember that the plural of anecdote is data.
--------------------
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Simms
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14294078 - 04/15/11 03:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: The fact that of the half million chi videos on YouTube, not ONE SINGLE VIDEO shows it working on a skeptic or inanimate object is inconclusive? 
Uhm?
I can see your denial, but this denial arises from fundamental beliefs. This is not about facts any more but pure rejection of wanting to look further, as I did post videos that make use of the chi and unanimate object.
--------------------
Edited by Simms (04/15/11 03:55 AM)
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295353 - 04/15/11 12:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Check at 5:25.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295511 - 04/15/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dude, that's the oldest stage trick in history. He's blowing on it. Put something light, like feathers on the table, and he won't be able to do it any more.
Here, watch this guy do that same trick. He's MUCH better at it:
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Fronnis



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295516 - 04/15/11 12:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I find the video's by someone called Shirakomegax on youtube very interesting. He shows a number of ways he supposedly uses his chi/psi energy do to move and control things, trying to keep his environment free from factors that would falsely determine his "ability". Here's an example of one of his videos with a "psi" wheel, but he has many many more, one of which I think he moves a ball with his "psi".
I can't really say for myself whether he is legit or just very good at falsifying his "ability", in an environment that seems to represent a fair test.
--------------------
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meatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14295580 - 04/15/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Dude, that's the oldest stage trick in history. He's blowing on it. Put something light, like feathers on the table, and he won't be able to do it any more.
Here, watch this guy do that same trick. He's MUCH better at it:
that doesn't explain anything at all...
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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the bizzle
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14295628 - 04/15/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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LOL@ youtube videos being able to prove or disprove "chi"
for all i care diploid can be right and these guys are frauds, and there is a large herd mentality formed around chi, but it still seems like diploid refuses to accept that there is much more to "chi" than this stuff. He only accepts the possibility where he is right. I thought a most necessary quality for a good scientist is being willing to accept being wrong about something.
Quote:
Within the framework of Chinese thought, no notion may attain such a degree of abstraction from empirical data as to correspond perfectly to one of our modern universal concepts. Nevertheless, the term qi comes as close as possible to constituting a generic designation equivalent to our word "energy"
Quote:
The ancient Chinese described it as "life-force". They believed qi permeated everything and linked the their surroundings together. They likened it to the flow of energy around and through the body, forming a cohesive and functioning unit. By understanding its rhythm and flow they believed they could guide exercises and treatments to provide stability and longevity.
sensible enough, especially from before scientific breakthroughs that prove that proper balancing of thangs is essential to health
-------------------- MY HAIR IS A BIRD YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
  
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14295758 - 04/15/11 01:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Dude, that's the oldest stage trick in history. He's blowing on it. Put something light, like feathers on the table, and he won't be able to do it any more.
Here, watch this guy do that same trick. He's MUCH better at it:
Yeah, he's blowing a dagger . . . Way to heavy.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295795 - 04/15/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, he's blowing a dagger . . . Way to heavy.
Not if it's balanced on a curved part of the knife, thus forming a nearly frictionless bearing.
This is a simple stage trick. I'm amazed you guys are actually falling for it. That says it all. 
And the bottom line here is that he's making YouTube videos but not winning the JREF million dollars.
Why? Because he can't cheat at the JREF.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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meatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14295815 - 04/15/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i'm not really falling for any of it. Qi isn't about doing super human feats, lighting an LED bulb, or shoving a chopstick through a wooden table.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: the bizzle]
#14295817 - 04/15/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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diploid refuses to accept
Show me the guy doing in front of a trained observer who can't be tricked, like at the JREF million dollar challenge, and I'll not only accept it, I'll jump for joy at the opening of a new chapter in scientific exploration.
I'll also become the guy's first groupie.
Keep showing me simple stage tricks and I'll just keep laughing that you guys actually fall for this stuff.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14295826 - 04/15/11 02:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i'm not really falling for any of it. Qi isn't about doing super human feats
Explain that to the chi master who makes videos of his "super human feats", since you seem to know more about it than he does.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14295835 - 04/15/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Tricked about what? It has already been explained that your narrow term of super-human powers is not = to chi in its broadness.
Regardless if these guys are cons or not.
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295844 - 04/15/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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It has already been explained that your narrow term of super-human powers is not = to chi in its broadness.
One again, it's not MY narrow term, it's the narrow term of an ACKNOWLEDGE CHI MASTER.
Get it straight. It's getting old explaining this to you over and over again. I don't make this up. I get my information from the master.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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meatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14295849 - 04/15/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: i'm not really falling for any of it. Qi isn't about doing super human feats
Explain that to the chi master who makes videos of his "super human feats", since you seem to know more about it than he does.
Real traditional Qi practitioners aren't allowed to show off their abilities in public, nor are they allowed to fight. So, any youtube video submission of some "Grand Master" Qi performance should be presumed to be false, imo.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14295855 - 04/15/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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A term that you cherry picked to suite your own purpose.
Send him an email and ask him what Chi is, as a student. Not to sum it up in 10 seconds.
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NetDiver
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295870 - 04/15/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.
If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14295874 - 04/15/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said:
Quote:
Diploid said: Alright, seems I DO have to spoon feed you: 
Transcribed direct from the chi master, chi is a "radio wave" that:
"is the basis of the power of practitioners of the martial arts... it flows throughout the body, without it you don't function. It can put the largest person in the world on the floor without having to touching them. Chi is like electrical circuitry. It is warmer than the environment. It can be dangerous and can 'flatline' people. It can move walls of people from 10 feet away. It can knock people out without touching any part of their body."
Satisfied?
No, that's an improper quote. Doesn't even include the author!
What he is initially refering to is the zero-point. The source of everything and nothing.
In the bolded part he goes on and talks about it being warmer than the environment, which is a specific type of chi. The knocking out part is too a specific type of chi (or lack of).
If one has no chi flow, limiting it (or removing it) will do nothing.
This definition itself is very broad as you can see.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: NetDiver]
#14295882 - 04/15/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.
If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.
Watch the video I posted, these were scrutinizing Doctors and critics.
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meatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: NetDiver]
#14295925 - 04/15/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.
If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.
why do they have to prove themselves? you, as a skeptic, are of ZERO importance to these people. if you truly wish to discern the reality of the matter, you need to seek out answers yourself instead of assuming that you deserve to have answers hand-fed to you. go to China. become a disciple. until then, this is really just a pointless conversation.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Fronnis



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: NetDiver]
#14296101 - 04/15/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The guy I mentioned on my previous post attempts to prove himself with any way to prove. He also opens himself to any suggestion I believe.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14296222 - 04/15/11 03:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Real traditional Qi practitioners aren't allowed to show off their abilities in public
So either you heard/read this second-hand
or
A 'real Master showed off his abilities to you.
Which is it?
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johnm214


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14296522 - 04/15/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.
If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.
why do they have to prove themselves? you, as a skeptic, are of ZERO importance to these people. if you truly wish to discern the reality of the matter, you need to seek out answers yourself instead of assuming that you deserve to have answers hand-fed to you. go to China. become a disciple. until then, this is really just a pointless conversation.
Why? I hear you say it, but I don't hear you explain it. What does location have to do with anything? This seems a pretty common viewpoint amongst westerners- seems like nothing more than ethnocentric bias: "the east is somehow different and more spiritual because their culture is different than the one I'm familiar with"
His attitude has nothing to do with the veracity of his conclusions- nothing.
Its pretty strange that you would suggest Samauri Drivter become a disciple of something he doesn't believe exists, let alone move to another country to persue such. Seems just an arbitrary demand with high entry barriers rather than anything logically required to comment on the evidence we see: which shows no evidence of any supernatural 'chi' effects despite a consistant claim of supernatural/mystical m3echanisms of chi's actions.
Maybe there's some top-secret people who use the word chi to refer to something else. This has been suggested several times. What hasn't been clarified, however, is what that has to do with anything. It seems plain its just an equivocation: if someone else refers to the toilet as chi, we obviously are not disproving the toilet or casting doubt on it despite the similarity of the terms. Diploid, for example, has expressly defined what he's criticizing and people still are having a fit- though I've seen no clear problems with his definition claimed other than 'its deeper than that' and similar vagaries.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14296625 - 04/15/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The title exclaims "The Definitive Chi Test"
What more needs to be said? The title eludes to Chi in general, However, without understanding what Chi really is, how can one assume to discredit it using a vaguely defined part of a definition that is completely out of context?
If these instances work or not, it has little to do with whether or not Chi exists.
Diploid posted evidence that included it working as well as not working, how is that any sort of a definitive conclusion?
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Diploid
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14296683 - 04/15/11 05:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Diploid posted evidence that included it working as well as not working
I posted evidence of it being demonstrated and debunked.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14296704 - 04/15/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nope, you did not.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14296712 - 04/15/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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You did not post any evidence that Chi does not exist, nor will you ever.
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johnm214


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14296753 - 04/15/11 05:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
teknix said: The title exclaims "The Definitive Chi Test"
What more needs to be said? The title eludes to Chi in general, However, without understanding what Chi really is, how can one assume to discredit it using a vaguely defined part of a definition that is completely out of context?
I don't know, but I fail to see how he did that. As his later posts explain, he was referring to a specific concept that is indeed called chi by many relevant groups, examples of such he provides. Therefore, its hard to see how the post is using an 'out of context' definition or how Diploid fails in "understanding what Chi really is". Even if he does, his argument still provides an appropriate test for whatever you want to call that concept he and the chi master called 'chi'.
These "what Chi really means is.... well, not that" arguments really seem like "No True Scotsman" fallacies: post hoc equivocations as to the operative subject. This seems especially true as the proponents of such claim seem unable to provide an alternative definition with any authority or rational rendering Diploid's definition inapropriate or excluded.
As for your beef with the title, I would think you'd be correct, but it seems a rather mundane point. I suppose it would have been more accurate to lable the thread something like "The definitive Chi Test Where Chi is Defined to Mean Such as Stated by Grand Magic pants of India..." I imagine Diploid would readily agree with this, yet I don't see the relevance here given it can be agreed by all that what Diploid doesn't disprove... he doesn't disprove.
Like I said: if I decide Chi means a ham sandwhich, Diploid's post will have failed in disproving such, but it still seems quite suitable in disproving that which it purports to disprove.
Incidentally, regarding the knocking people over things, I would think another decent test, besides inanimate objects, would be people who don't have knowledge of their expected behavior or when the practitioner intends to "chi them up". Confirmation bias, pressure to conform, seems plainly a suspect factor in the usual demonstrations, yet the mechanism claimed seems not to require to person to be aware of the test, so why not just blindfold them and test them against real and fake Chi Masters? The lack of even elementary controls or blinding is a pretty conspicuous absence in these demonstrations- even grade school children understand those concepts.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14296778 - 04/15/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Double-posting is a sign of exceptionally strong chi.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14296783 - 04/15/11 05:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sure If you seek understanding I would be happy to give a definition that would encompass what he is talking about and make a bit more sense, although still doesn't disprove anything. It would be impossible to disprove "chi"
Start here.
http://www.universal-tao.com/9formula_page/dark_matter.html
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meatcakeman
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Real traditional Qi practitioners aren't allowed to show off their abilities in public
So either you heard/read this second-hand
or
A 'real Master showed off his abilities to you.
Which is it?
obviously, some people don't follow the rules. i feel like that's a pretty blatant understanding.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14296873 - 04/15/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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What is Qi? Qi (Chi) means energy. Qi is more specifically the vital energy that exists before we are born, remains in the body during our life, and persists after our lives end (Trieschmann, 1999). Qi energy is polar: it possesses a positive and negative side. In Tao philosophy all positive forces in the universe have a negative force. These opposing forces act to balance one another out. When the Qi of the body is out of balance, the body gets sick (http://www.naturalhealthweb.com). Maintaining a balanced Qi will insure health, and in order to restore health from sickness, the Qi must be brought back to a balanced state (Trieschmann, 1999). Qi Gong is a way to balance Qi and heal and ward off illness.
What is Qi Gong? Qi Gong, also spelled Chi Kung, is a Chinese method of healing. Qi means energy and Gong means skill. Together, Qi Gong is the skill of attracting vital energy (http://www.qi.org). Qi Gong is also the act of moving the Qi energy throughout the body in order to restore balance (http://www.naturalhealthweb.com).
How is Qi Gong Performed? Qi Gong can take many different forms, some involving a Qi Gong master who transmits energy into your body through acupuncture meridians, his palms, or by tapping the individual. A Qi Gong master can also transmit Qi energy into inanimate objects and solutions, which when held to, or consumed by the body will transmit the Qi energy into the body and restore balance. Other methods involve one individual who can control his/her Qi activity through meditation, breathing exercises or mild movements.
http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/QiGong.htm
This is more relevant to EMPTY FORCE, which is only an aspect of Chi.
http://www.universal-tao.com/article/empty.html
"(1799-1872) - a famous tai chi chuan expert in China's Qing Dynasty who was said to "draw blood with every step" - had mastered the empty force. For this reason, people say that the tradition of the empty force was lost and reappeared during the Qing Dynasty. It was claimed that whenever Yang's life was in danger, he would kill one assailant with every step. However, what he let out of his palm was not "thunder," but what the Chinese call "jing" (force). "
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meatcakeman
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14296880 - 04/15/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Videos constitute probably the worst kind of "evidence" imaginable. It's ridiculously easy to fake things on camera.
If doing things with chi really is possible, why hasn't someone demonstrated it under conditions that should satisfy anyone? Why hasn't it been performed successfully on a skeptic? The only response I ever hear to these questions is just a bunch of excuses. Drop the excuses and show some evidence, or there's nothing to your belief.
why do they have to prove themselves? you, as a skeptic, are of ZERO importance to these people. if you truly wish to discern the reality of the matter, you need to seek out answers yourself instead of assuming that you deserve to have answers hand-fed to you. go to China. become a disciple. until then, this is really just a pointless conversation.
Why? I hear you say it, but I don't hear you explain it. What does location have to do with anything? This seems a pretty common viewpoint amongst westerners- seems like nothing more than ethnocentric bias: "the east is somehow different and more spiritual because their culture is different than the one I'm familiar with"
His attitude has nothing to do with the veracity of his conclusions- nothing.
Its pretty strange that you would suggest Samauri Drivter become a disciple of something he doesn't believe exists, let alone move to another country to persue such. Seems just an arbitrary demand with high entry barriers rather than anything logically required to comment on the evidence we see: which shows no evidence of any supernatural 'chi' effects despite a consistant claim of supernatural/mystical m3echanisms of chi's actions.
Maybe there's some top-secret people who use the word chi to refer to something else. This has been suggested several times. What hasn't been clarified, however, is what that has to do with anything. It seems plain its just an equivocation: if someone else refers to the toilet as chi, we obviously are not disproving the toilet or casting doubt on it despite the similarity of the terms. Diploid, for example, has expressly defined what he's criticizing and people still are having a fit- though I've seen no clear problems with his definition claimed other than 'its deeper than that' and similar vagaries.
now you're just making a fuss.
I'm simply stating the excruciatingly obvious: Qi is mystical. If you ask for evidence, then denounce said evidence on the premise that it isn't sufficient, why don't you just go dig it up yourself? Tons of videos were posted supporting and denouncing the existence of Qi. And, now, all of a sudden, videos aren't valid enough. Well, quit the bitching and do something about it. Assuming something doesn't exist because you won't accept the evidence is fine, but acting as if you are out to prove something is rather ignorant. So, if the evidence isn't sufficient, why denounce the possibility of it? Why not assume the possibility instead of choosing a side? Wouldn't that be a far more impartial take on this whole skepticism?
EDIT: i'm just saying... this debate is like trying to convince a Christian that God isn't real. it's fucking pointless.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
Edited by meatcakeman (04/15/11 05:48 PM)
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14296945 - 04/15/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Here is really a Qigong master.
As the credentials of the author's who's definition was being used have not yet emerged and the claim of Master shouldn't be taken as lightly as it was presented.
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Fronnis



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14297043 - 04/15/11 06:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think to get a better understanding, the scientific side to this hypothetical chi energy should be looked at. Some parapsychologists have studied the idea bodily energy affecting movement in inanimate objects (telekinesis) and extra-sensory perception, and called the energy "psi." A wikipedia link-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psi_(parapsychology). There are many forums on the net having people that actually believe they can achieve such feats such as control over matter and elements through such psi energy. One website, http://qpsychics.com/, is run by a Dr. of parapsychology, starting up a university for people to study the supposed effect of psi on inanimate objects and elements.
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teknix
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Fronnis]
#14297094 - 04/15/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thank you fronnis, Psi would definitely be better wording than Chi.
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johnm214


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Fronnis]
#14297100 - 04/15/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That would be nifty, but a universtiy seems a bit overkill given the lack of any decent evidence for this telekenesis in the first place. I know one of the cop outs people use (not saying you, just that its been said commonly) to explain the dichotomy between commonly observed effects like psi and no decent evidence/scientific knowledge, is funding/facilities being closed to such.
Really, though, what does it take to demonstrate telekentic ability? Put someone in a room, have them move something, done. This isn't high-priced research here, you just need a controlled envirnoment- any room will do that the aprticipant has no access to outside the test.
While apparently 'real' Chi-Men don't show their skills, those who aren't top-secret could pretty easily demonstrate these sorts of things.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Fronnis]
#14297125 - 04/15/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
starting up a university for people to study the supposed effect of psi on inanimate objects and elements.
How do you 'study' an inanimate object affected by imagination?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14297160 - 04/15/11 06:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I could tell he was a 'real master. He was old, Chinese, had that wispy beard thingie going on; and most importantly - his PR team called him Master in the video at least a dozen times. Can't get any more authentic than that!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14297178 - 04/15/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Did you know that when I stretch, flexons zoom from my spine into my tendons?
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
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OC, your ignorance is exceptionally brash. you're really dancing around the boundary of skepticism and stupidity.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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The video shows that the Master is not overly concerned with money. It seems more important for him to help people than make a profit.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14297313 - 04/15/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fake medicine is truly helpful.
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Fronnis



Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 1,033
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
starting up a university for people to study the supposed effect of psi on inanimate objects and elements.
How do you 'study' an inanimate object affected by imagination?
The only course guideline they offer so far seems to be for "telepathic studies." It seems to be quite in depth if it were some sort of scam http://qpsychics.com/university/curriculum/Telepathic-Studies-PDF.pdf.
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Edited by Fronnis (04/15/11 07:06 PM)
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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How much do you pay your doctor?
How much would an acupuncture cost you, I'm sure they have some in your area, since they are everywhere!
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14297421 - 04/15/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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We have only refuted acupuncture some 15 times on here in the last 10 years. Do a search.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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That is besides the point, people are willing to pay way greater sums than $1 for it. He could make a fortune of it if that was his desire, which it is obviously not.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14297755 - 04/15/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Seems just an arbitrary demand with high entry barriers rather than anything logically required to comment on the evidence we see: which shows no evidence of any supernatural 'chi' effects despite a consistant claim of supernatural/mystical m3echanisms of chi's actions.
Ding ding ding! It's a logical fallacy called "moving the goalposts."
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: NetDiver]
#14300653 - 04/16/11 12:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Really, though, what does it take to demonstrate telekentic ability? Put someone in a room, have them move something, done.
that still is, like diploid, misconstruing the topic entirely
"chi" is like energy flow, yin/yang balance, etc. An abstraction of something we already observe at least somewhat. If you want to demonstrate it, eat only meat for a few months and you will have a blocked up colon (blocked energy flow)
telekinesis and moving objects from afar are something different, despite diploid's stubborn insistence on defining "chi" through one man on youtube. This is ridiculous. I get his point, a thousand times over, but it is far from a definitive chi anything
The definitive chi test: eat ONLY meat for several months, and tell me how you feel
not to mention, QIGONG and CHI/QI are two different things. Just as there is tai chi. Maybe if Diploid retitled it the definitive Qigong test. it might not be so horribly out of context. But I don't really know much about QiGong, I just know that what Diploid is criticizing is not "chi"
Edited by the bizzle (04/16/11 12:31 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: the bizzle]
#14301430 - 04/16/11 02:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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that still is, like diploid, misconstruing the topic entirely
/sigh
It's the chi master in the video I linked who's "misconstruing" the topic.
And it's good to know that you're qualified to lecture what chi is to a recognized master. I'm impressed.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14301497 - 04/16/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Common knowledge, you're missing out.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14302313 - 04/16/11 05:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said: OC, your ignorance is exceptionally brash. you're really dancing around the boundary of skepticism and stupidity.
I like how you're leaving the people you're debating with out of the debate.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Poid]
#14302341 - 04/16/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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To date, I count 284,000 posts of people explaining why something they claim can be demonstrated cannot be demonstrated.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Damn, that's a lot of stoopid.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Poid] 1
#14302485 - 04/16/11 06:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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If those posters were androids they would self-terminate as the illogic would be too much to bear.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Yeah I could say the same thing about labeling and even miss-labeling.
Some people assume more than they actually know.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: teknix]
#14302657 - 04/16/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"miss" labeling, LOL.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Poid]
#14304129 - 04/17/11 12:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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chi is real, if you don't know about it you're probably bored a lot
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14304255 - 04/17/11 01:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
Really, though, what does it take to demonstrate telekentic ability? Put someone in a room, have them move something, done.
that still is, like diploid, misconstruing the topic entirely
"chi" is like energy flow, yin/yang balance, etc. An abstraction of something we already observe at least somewhat. If you want to demonstrate it, eat only meat for a few months and you will have a blocked up colon (blocked energy flow)
telekinesis and moving objects from afar are something different, despite diploid's stubborn insistence on defining "chi" through one man on youtube. This is ridiculous. I get his point, a thousand times over, but it is far from a definitive chi anything
The definitive chi test: eat ONLY meat for several months, and tell me how you feel
not to mention, QIGONG and CHI/QI are two different things. Just as there is tai chi. Maybe if Diploid retitled it the definitive Qigong test. it might not be so horribly out of context. But I don't really know much about QiGong, I just know that what Diploid is criticizing is not "chi"
Wow, and after ALL that, like other posters, you fail to clearly state what chi is, only claiming that Diploid did not refer to Chi in his example test. Of course, you fail to provide any argument or cited facts, you just declare it to be so. I suspect this is like Samauri Drifter observed, simply because you wish to continue to equivocate, move the goalposts. These are basically seeming to be no true scotsman claims. You won't say what Chi is and demonstrate such, but you will make baseless claims that it isn't what Diploid thinks it is.
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
Why? I hear you say it, but I don't hear you explain it. What does location have to do with anything? This seems a pretty common viewpoint amongst westerners- seems like nothing more than ethnocentric bias: "the east is somehow different and more spiritual because their culture is different than the one I'm familiar with"
His attitude has nothing to do with the veracity of his conclusions- nothing.
Its pretty strange that you would suggest Samauri Drivter become a disciple of something he doesn't believe exists, let alone move to another country to persue such. Seems just an arbitrary demand with high entry barriers rather than anything logically required to comment on the evidence we see: which shows no evidence of any supernatural 'chi' effects despite a consistant claim of supernatural/mystical m3echanisms of chi's actions.
Maybe there's some top-secret people who use the word chi to refer to something else. This has been suggested several times. What hasn't been clarified, however, is what that has to do with anything. It seems plain its just an equivocation: if someone else refers to the toilet as chi, we obviously are not disproving the toilet or casting doubt on it despite the similarity of the terms. Diploid, for example, has expressly defined what he's criticizing and people still are having a fit- though I've seen no clear problems with his definition claimed other than 'its deeper than that' and similar vagaries.
now you're just making a fuss.
I'm simply stating the excruciatingly obvious: Qi is mystical. If you ask for evidence, then denounce said evidence on the premise that it isn't sufficient, why don't you just go dig it up yourself?
What does the answer to that question have to do with anything? To the extent its not really a question but a comment on the fact that I haven't done so, so you assume, it is clearly an attempt to shift the burden of proof. To the extent it isn't such, its an irrelevant question- you've not even alleged the answer to have anything to do with the topic.
I'll answer anyways: because I don't think it exists and feel my time would be wasted looking through garbage that middle schooler coudl correctly dismiss as baseless claims and atecdotes: which seems to be the core of that kinda literature, documentation. Seems to be either some guy just writing all these supposed truths, either as a master or a tertiary source combining knowledge from various masters, or a more investiagtive style piece that just relays antecdotes. I fail to see how either would be helpful, and since I don't think Chi is real to the extent it is any of the supernatural/mystical things and not just focus of an ordinary sort, I certainly wouldn't set out to look for something.
So now its me as well that should move to China and study this stuff? You suggested that to another, and now it seems you want me to spend all this time and effort looking into something I've allready concluded is a bunch of balooney and that even its believers can produce no impressive displays or evidence. No thanks. Besides, not by burden and irrelevant.
Quote:
Tons of videos were posted supporting and denouncing the existence of Qi. And, now, all of a sudden, videos aren't valid enough.
What are you talking about? Unless your trying to hold me responsible for the actions and arguments of others I really have no idea what your talking about. What videos?
I generally find youtube videos on conspiracies and mystical stuff to be crap: just conclusory claims or antecdotes, at best mundane demonstrations, but I don't ever recall claiming youtube videos can't prove anything, nor do I recall posting youtube videos claiming to discredit chi. Hell, those convinced everyone is not speaking about chi won't even say what it is, so I'm not at all sure how I would try to disprove it if were to attempt to: given these are post hoc equivocations, there's no way to do so. (certainly if there is a definition, nobody's put it forward, simply making baseless unsupported declarations that what Diploid, Orgone, et cet speak of is not Chi
Quote:
Well, quit the bitching and do something about it. Assuming something doesn't exist because you won't accept the evidence is fine, but acting as if you are out to prove something is rather ignorant.
Why? What does this have to do with anything anyways? I fail to see how my behavior indicates I'm "out to prove something" or why that matters. Once again: you've simply declared this to be so and offered no justification for your claim. Seems to be a common theme throughout this thread: baseless claims.
Quote:
So, if the evidence isn't sufficient, why denounce the possibility of it? Why not assume the possibility instead of choosing a side? Wouldn't that be a far more impartial take on this whole skepticism?
EDIT: i'm just saying... this debate is like trying to convince a Christian that God isn't real. it's fucking pointless.
What does any of this matter? I denounce any mystical chi phenomena because that stuff is frequently claimed by many people and never demonstrated. Additionally, people are illogical and believe all sorts of things that they are wrong about. I believe this is the case here, and the evidence shows nothing to reject the null hypothesis, so I'm certainly comfortable presuming the phenomena is nonsense to the extent its anything mystical and not simply garden-variety concentration.
I don't see what my disposition has to do with anything though. The only position I'm advancing has to do with the merits of the claims, unsupported, and the merits of the rebuttals made: equivocations post hoc that fail to clearly state the operative terms definition despite claiming several posters have gotten it wrong in figuring out what this concept is.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: We have only refuted acupuncture some 15 times on here in the last 10 years. Do a search.

like any conclusion drawn by debate on some philosophy forum on a psychedelic mushroom message board has any fucking merit. 
LOL
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14305087 - 04/17/11 08:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Wow, that sure proved him wrong, and you right.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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g00ru
lit pants tit licker



Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Poid]
#14305194 - 04/17/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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now children
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14305237 - 04/17/11 09:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: We have only refuted acupuncture some 15 times on here in the last 10 years. Do a search.

like any conclusion drawn by debate on some philosophy forum on a psychedelic mushroom message board has any fucking merit. 
LOL
The arguments I posited were all pretty damning using acupuncturists own words and counter-claims by various factions and double-blind tests, not by some trickery or bare declaration.
--------------------
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MutantBonobo
An Even Greater Ape



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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Diploid]
#14305285 - 04/17/11 09:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I can move an inanimate object by breaking wind (within certain weight limits and aerodynamic considerations), easier than a chi practitioner can with his mystical chi (which just ain't gonna happen at all).
-------------------- Lois, this family believes in the Easter Bunny. He died for our sins in that helicopter crash. Now, if you wanna go to hell, that's fine, but don't drag the rest of us down with you like a mentally handicapped rooster. - Peter Griffin (Family Guy)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Chi is bull-chi-t. 
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Simms
Fuckwit


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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Poid]
#14307767 - 04/17/11 05:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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This whole thread just failed miserably Or was it meant from the beginning that discussion should reach utter pointlessness?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14307824 - 04/17/11 05:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Something demonstrable does NOT need a discussion.
Is anyone debating whether or not man can fly? No. And why not?
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
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Quote:
Poid said: Wow, that sure proved him wrong, and you right. 
i wasn't trying to prove anything except that maybe you guys should take some of the shit you spew with a grain of salt. and, of course this applies to me as well.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Something demonstrable does NOT need a discussion.
Is anyone debating whether or not man can fly? No. And why not?
you suck at analogies. try something you're better at? maybe cashier at walmart or fry cook or something?
EDIT: OC, hopefully you can see the irony of my statement to you. if not, it's all in the analogy.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
Edited by meatcakeman (04/17/11 05:47 PM)
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14307911 - 04/17/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Something demonstrable does NOT need a discussion.
Is anyone debating whether or not man can fly? No. And why not?
I posted quite a lot of videos, which seem eligible at least for me. Now you are probably going to call me an ignorant stupid tard, because you THINK those videos are fake. But please elaborate why you think these videos are fake and give some ideas how could they be faked. If you bring in visual FX, then thats the subject I am studing and actually working in that field, so be more than brief.
If you are not going to explain, then I will continue to be a stupid tard and continue to turn the rest of the world into stupid tards, to make your life as miserable as I could. That way, you make all your efforts done so far, pointless.
--------------------
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14307927 - 04/17/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said: Wow, that sure proved him wrong, and you right. 
i wasn't trying to prove anything except that maybe you guys should take some of the shit you spew with a grain of salt. and, of course this applies to me as well.
Maybe you should just stick to the topic, like the rules say you should.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Poid]
#14307942 - 04/17/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Poid said: Wow, that sure proved him wrong, and you right. 
i wasn't trying to prove anything except that maybe you guys should take some of the shit you spew with a grain of salt. and, of course this applies to me as well.
Maybe you should just stick to the topic, like the rules say you should. 
maybe you should too... so why don't we just end the bickering?
on a count of three
1
2
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: meatcakeman]
#14307957 - 04/17/11 06:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
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Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14503091 - 05/24/11 06:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said: I feel the need to quote myself from Randis Prize thread, since neither Samurai Drifter nor anyone else has given me reasonable explanation about the fakeness of the claim these videos are trying to make:
Quote:
Simms said:
Quote:
Diploid said: If anyone can prove to me that this is fake, or what I experienced was fake or can provide me with a resource that shows how it is done, I'm all ears and open to it.
Ever notice that these people ALWAYS use some sort of props and that they set them up themselves, not a neutral observer.
The guy who appears to light newspaper on fire with his chi is shown in the video as the same person who tears the paper and balls it up before holding his hand over it and it bursts into flames. Coincidence? Nope. How else to use slight of hand to add a hypergolic chemical (read: it burns on contact with air) to the newspaper as he balls it up.
The guy in your video wraps some aluminum foil in paper towel and a few minutes later it's up to 200F. He doesn't do it to a thermometer laying in plain view on a table. He doesn't have one of the film makers do it. He does it himself. Coincidence? of course not.
Not an actual proof that it is fake, just a hypothesis.
I keep my mouth shut now, just post some more interesting videos:
Click to watch all 5 parts and to see subtitles.
More:
I posted this a year ago in some other thread, but I could not find the original video, so you'd have to see it crappier and without sound until me or someone else manages to find it again:
Actually a suitable material for Chi thread. Although Spetsnaz guys call it Ether, which scientific term is Aether, which has been thoroughly studied by Lorenz and Einstein after him. Nikola Tesla supposedly did experiments with aether. Einstein claimed that Aether is kind of immobile "energy", to put it simple, so I really do not know how this applies here. But the description of "immobile" doesn't mean that it can not influence stuff around it, which Einstein agrees with. Then again science can always be wrong, even the term itself keeps changing over time, as it did from middle ages, through 18 century until today. Maybe we are all just blinded like people were in the Middle Ages, we will not know until we are somehow out of it. Einsteins Theory of Relativity proves to be right, but there are actually so many variations of it and all of them prove true in some levels.
Russian mix of fighting styles, called Systema, which uses suggestive combat psychology and body pressure points amongst other things. Russia is a big country and there are many forms of Systema fighting, some of it is applied in Spetznas, which mastery also varies from region to region.
Now, there, we actually see this thing called "chi" applied to static enviornment, nonanimated things we call them. I propose that chi, whatever it actually is, affects humans the same way it affects other things, through heat in various points, humans react to it, their nervous system reacts and they pull away, eg fall or retreat and get distracted.
I have called an explanation for these videos before in these forums, and not gotten any, so I call again. This applies to both chi believers and non-believers. If you think there is chi involved in these videos, would you please elaborate and describe the processes involved. As right now, a year and a half later, I am still not sure enough to pick certain sides as these videos leave me baffled.
My ban is over. Bump. Dedicated to OrangeConclusion.
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Edited by Simms (05/24/11 06:36 AM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14505225 - 05/24/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said: I feel the need to quote myself from Randis Prize thread, since neither Samurai Drifter nor anyone else has given me reasonable explanation about the fakeness of the claim these videos are trying to make:
What's the point? It is not the burden of others to disprove whatever is claimed to be in the videos. This has nothing to do with whether chi exists.
There is no reason some trick shown on youtube should neccesarily have its mechnism be plain for chi to be bunk- or at least whatever we want to call the phenomena in question, since nobody seems to know what chi is such that we can tell if something is or is not 'chi'.
It suffices that explanations are available the don't require 'chi' or whatever to be a real phenomena. What actually the mechanism used in the videos was, it doesn't matter. This is an example of why videos are a crapy way to communicate: there's much less information than would be needed to rule out all the known processes that could account for the observations.
Given that a simple study to demonstrate someone's powers would be very simple and easy to do, the fact that such a thing hasn't been done is pretty good evidence that all these people making the videos have no real intention of demonstrating any legitimate abilities. For whatever reason, though, we still here people claim there's some conspiracy to deny funding to paranormal research and that otherwise it would be proven by now.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14506114 - 05/24/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is a ban evidence of a Moderator's chi? It seems like 'spooky action at a distance'...
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: johnm214]
#14506843 - 05/24/11 09:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
Simms said: I feel the need to quote myself from Randis Prize thread, since neither Samurai Drifter nor anyone else has given me reasonable explanation about the fakeness of the claim these videos are trying to make:
What's the point? It is not the burden of others to disprove whatever is claimed to be in the videos. This has nothing to do with whether chi exists.
There is no reason some trick shown on youtube should neccesarily have its mechnism be plain for chi to be bunk- or at least whatever we want to call the phenomena in question, since nobody seems to know what chi is such that we can tell if something is or is not 'chi'.
It suffices that explanations are available the don't require 'chi' or whatever to be a real phenomena. What actually the mechanism used in the videos was, it doesn't matter. This is an example of why videos are a crapy way to communicate: there's much less information than would be needed to rule out all the known processes that could account for the observations.
Given that a simple study to demonstrate someone's powers would be very simple and easy to do, the fact that such a thing hasn't been done is pretty good evidence that all these people making the videos have no real intention of demonstrating any legitimate abilities. For whatever reason, though, we still here people claim there's some conspiracy to deny funding to paranormal research and that otherwise it would be proven by now.
As I understand it, chi is a manifastation of human abilities, its not a term, and most definately not a scientific term.
Chi is ancient chinese word that describes "life force" -- this described the world at that time. In these videos, the hand-paper burn is claimed to be chi-energy. But since "chi" is ancient word that has no real translation into modern vocabulary, it can not be defined. Therefore you can take what one claims to be "chi" and translate that action into modern scientific language. That is your chi. World can be translated in many ways.
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Edited by Simms (05/24/11 09:05 PM)
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: The Definitive Chi Test [Re: Simms]
#14509596 - 05/25/11 12:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said:
As I understand it, chi is a manifastation of human abilities, its not a term, and most definately not a scientific term.
What does it mean to say chi is 'not a term'? If it does not refer to a particular concept then completely worthless as any use of the word would convey false impressions that it means something, anything at all.
Quote:
Chi is ancient chinese word that describes "life force" -- this described the world at that time. In these videos, the hand-paper burn is claimed to be chi-energy.
right, its bullshit
Quote:
But since "chi" is ancient word that has no real translation into modern vocabulary, it can not be defined.
How so? a) the issue of a translation is irrelevant, b) if the word cannot be defined then it has no particular meaning and is a hinderance to any communication in which it is employed
Why are you using words in your posting here that you claim cannot be defined and that aren't terms? If even you cannot say what your post meant, as the chi word used prominently has no definition, then why would you post it? I would think one of the most basic of assumptions we'd be allowed to make is that the other poster is trying to communicate by posting. You suggest this is not the case.
Therefore you can take what one claims to be "chi" and translate that action into modern scientific language. That is your chi. World can be translated in many ways.
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