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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: Kickle]
    #14262293 - 04/09/11 09:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Biffzilla said:


Why do you think it would be easy to measure 'bad vibes', from a scientific standpoint?




I would think so.  Just get someone to send the vibes and at least one person to recieve.  Seperate the two and measure the mood and state of the experimental person.  Have the vibes be sent at random for a period of time so many times a session.




It doesn't work like that at all.  You're sending vibes all the time, uncontrollably. Everything is a vibration.  Vibes is just a word people use who have a subtle enough seeing that they can detect the vibrations.





I don't get your point here.  What would this matter?  The protocol I suggest would still detect the phenomena throught the comparison of the mood of the experimental subject when the vibe-sender is present or not present. If "you're sending vibes all the time, uncontrollably" then such will be detected by the difference in mood of the experimental subject when the vibe-sender is present, however that difference is manifested.

While I have much doubt whether your description is common, it seems most do not believe you send vibes uncontrollably, or at least a signifigant proportion of those who post about such here do not, but either way: the protocol was designed such that your case would be detected and you've not explained how you feel it would not.

Quote:

Kickle said:
Can science explore phenomena that aren't constant or consistent? This is just a generalized question.





Yes, specifically the protocol I suggest would be able to do so, which is a useful example given its relevance to this topic.  (a more familiar example might be an investigation determining if people sleep.  Science still can tackle this situation despite the fact that people don't sleep constantly or necesarily consistantly).

If we take Guruu's claim, for example, that vibes are sent all the time uncontrollably, but suppose that they only have an effect of some particular detectable magnitude one out of a hundred times (however the frequency is defined) then you simply observe their effects one out of a hundred times. 

One out of a hundred times is still a difference, and this difference may be detected by the normal means.  Additioanlly, negative results also allow an upper bound to be placed on the nature of the vibes which may have been present but weren't detectable.  Not only does this allow more information to be had, it allows insight into the phenomena: you can then conclude whether certain explanations, cases, are possible or not.

Quote:

jvm said:
Quote:

Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly?




Follow where the funding comes from :yesnod:




Okay, I've so-followed.  Now what?

What kind of funding do you suppose any of these things would require?  Remote viewing and all sorts of other things have been seriously investigated, and even untrained amateurs may conduct perfectly valid experiments.

Why do you need funding to detect any of this stuff?  In my protocol, for example, you simply need some rooms and you ask the subject some questions.  Why does this take money?




Quote:

I don't see the point in trying to find personal ego growth by the scientific community telling me if something is real or not. Who are they? Just more people with their own perceptions and opinions. Let me have mine, and you can have yours. Don't trust my experiences as much as you would sciences findings. It PERSONALLY means nothing to you unless you experience it.




I don't understand the point of your discussion.  Has anyone appealed to authority?  Anyone suggested you should beleive any particular thing?

This whole thing seems a defensive anti-science spiel, as if anyone is suggesting what you should or should not believe.  Nobody cares, we're interested int he evidence here, not whatever oppression you claim to experience.

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OfflineI AM SWIM
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: johnm214]
    #14262410 - 04/09/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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OfflineI AM SWIM
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: I AM SWIM]
    #14262426 - 04/09/11 10:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You cannot obtain evidence from mystical experiences, even
a witness wouldn't help. People will just think you're crazy.
We're all mad here.

But you can try to obtain and experience those mystical experiences,
and allow them to help guide you to your own constantly-changing
interpretation of objective reality.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: johnm214]
    #14262769 - 04/09/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Biffzilla said:


Why do you think it would be easy to measure 'bad vibes', from a scientific standpoint?




I would think so.  Just get someone to send the vibes and at least one person to recieve.  Seperate the two and measure the mood and state of the experimental person.  Have the vibes be sent at random for a period of time so many times a session.




It doesn't work like that at all.  You're sending vibes all the time, uncontrollably. Everything is a vibration.  Vibes is just a word people use who have a subtle enough seeing that they can detect the vibrations.





I don't get your point here.  What would this matter?  The protocol I suggest would still detect the phenomena throught the comparison of the mood of the experimental subject when the vibe-sender is present or not present. If "you're sending vibes all the time, uncontrollably" then such will be detected by the difference in mood of the experimental subject when the vibe-sender is present, however that difference is manifested.





Yeah, but the physical data received would always be impossible to use in a truly constructive sense.  It's like proving energy.  How can science prove that there is such thing as energy? It's just taken to be there. Maybe, if they had a very advanced being and told him to send all different types of vibes, the scientists if they were sensitive would feel them and be like "woah, weird," and then write down a subjective report, but that's not a level science is at right now, Psychology probably comes the closest.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #14262839 - 04/09/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Yeah, those are tricky. I've had weird events like that too, though I tend to side with it being a coincidence, or delusion on my part. There's really no was of knowing for certain when you're evaluating your own experiences. Surely if auras are real and some people do see them, there must be some kind of aura seeing virtuoso out there that could be put to the test.

Randies million dollars await.




Do you ever wonder if, as we age, we want more and more to have something solid to stand on? That perhaps we disregard the strange experiences in favor of the more sensible, just because then we have something, anything, that we can know and use for a framework?

I have a hard time explaining my experiences in life, even though over time they fade from thought and are replaced by something "harder" or more consistent.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: johnm214]
    #14263622 - 04/09/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Biffzilla said:


Why do you think it would be easy to measure 'bad vibes', from a scientific standpoint?




I would think so.  Just get someone to send the vibes and at least one person to recieve.  Seperate the two and measure the mood and state of the experimental person.  Have the vibes be sent at random for a period of time so many times a session.  Have the recipient monitored during several sessions, including control sessions where the transmittant is absent and when he is present but not sending vibes, and see if there are any differences in the person's mental state when the vibes are being sent or when the person is present (if the vibes aren't controllable or the person can't help but to send good vibes).  If there's a difference between the control session and when the guy is present or sending vibes, then it supports the vibes, if there's no difference than it does not support the vibes.

I don't think you'd need anything fancy to do these kinds of things.  If someone knows something exists, is real, from their experiences or abilities, then they can detect it, obviously.  All you need to do then is ask the person and they'll let you know when they detect something.  Since the experiment is so simple, you could do a bunch of trials and detect even phenomena that the person can't detect reliably (i.e. they can only detect spirits one out of ten times they try to, or only one out of ten times they feel good vibes its because someone is sending them).

Given that this would be a major discovery and so many people understand these things and experience them, it just seems strange that there's apparently no scientific acceptance.  See what I mean?




Considering just how recently the concept of the microbial cause of disease was discovered, it's all a matter of patience. Think about it:  Joseph Lister discovered antisepsis the same year that Louis Pasteur discovered that antisepsis reduced gangrene - 1867 - that's only 144 years from today! My Great Uncle Herman, who died at 106, was 18 when Orville and Wilber flew the first aeroplane. He also witnessed the lunar landing, atomic and thermonuclear reactions, LASERs, and PCs in the span of his 106 years. Thomas Edison contemplated a machine that could detect departed souls.

As our intelligence evolves, so do our machines. Ideas first occur in imagination and intuition before manifesting in rational intellection. Physical manifestation then occurs. Witness the imaginary atomic submarine Nautilus, envisioned by Jules Verne in 1870, and the actual Nautilus atomic submarine launched in 1954, less than a century later. To me, having a computer is the most magickal example of mind and matter drawing closer together. Anything I can think of appears in a moment before my eyes, and I can order on-line something that will appear on my doorstep in days. This process is even better illustrated in Star Trek's 'replicator' - instant manifestation of an idea. Trans-light speed transcends Einsteinian space, and by way of a new paradigm, perhaps beings will. Time may eventually be transcended like the Time Lords of Dr. Who. Beyond the phenomenal world, there will still remain the Transcendental Source of all space-time, so I do not believe in the absence of Mystery.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14263805 - 04/09/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree its amzing how recently things have occured in the context of any other scale- even civilization is quite recent.  The dawn of history is only a few thousand years ago.

But I don't think your analogies are really all that on point.  The reason vibes and stuff like that are easy to test is because a) people know about them, and b) people can detect them.  Therefore, we measure their detection of them.  If people are no different when vibes are sent then when they are not, then we can rule out vibes having certain properties in such and such situations.  If we imagine vibes to have even a small inconcistant effect, it would be trivial to measure such with questionars measuring mental state, mood, that allready exist and have been used for objective determination of people's behavior, self determined mood.

This makes this issue a bit different: people can't detect bacteria per se, nor did they allready know what causes rotting and so forth.  Had they known, it would have been trivial to test for such.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: Kickle]
    #14263837 - 04/09/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Yeah, those are tricky. I've had weird events like that too, though I tend to side with it being a coincidence, or delusion on my part. There's really no was of knowing for certain when you're evaluating your own experiences. Surely if auras are real and some people do see them, there must be some kind of aura seeing virtuoso out there that could be put to the test.

Randies million dollars await.




Do you ever wonder if, as we age, we want more and more to have something solid to stand on? That perhaps we disregard the strange experiences in favor of the more sensible, just because then we have something, anything, that we can know and use for a framework?

I have a hard time explaining my experiences in life, even though over time they fade from thought and are replaced by something "harder" or more consistent.



Maybe for some. I think it's a matter of building upon the habits you develop over the course of an entire life. Some people have to "know" what's going on, so they attribute anything they don't know to the supernatural, or to the answers given them by an authority figure.

Personally I feel like I'm getting more and more comfortable with acknowledging what I don't know as I get older, because I've made a habit of being open to and exploring things that are a mystery to me. I'd rather explore an idea than try to explain it to myself if I don't really know what's going on.

My goal in life is basically just not to become a curmudgeony fuck as I get older.:lol:


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Invisiblemianfei
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: johnm214]
    #14270444 - 04/11/11 01:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've had this problem consistently in debates with my vehemently atheistic mother and brother over claims that people like Therese Neumann, Luisa Piccaretta, Marthe Robin and Alexandrina da Costa are supposed to have:
  • eaten no food and drank no water except for the Holy Eucharist
  • not slept at all for many years
  • received regularly the wounds of Jesus' stigmata
Guinness World Records (in my editions still titled The Guinness Book of Records) has never recognised most of these miracles when it makes lists of records for the longest period without food or water, which from 1979 until it refused to accept fasting records it has listed as eighteen days by an Austrian called Andreas Mihavecz who was left in a holding cell after being a passenger in a crashed car.

My mother and brother say that even if there is eyewitness evidence that these stigmatists consistently rejected any food or water except the Eucharist, scientific evidence that people die if they do not have food or water for more than eighteen days must take precedence. However, I still have serious problems with what my mother says. According to medical eyewitnesses, when doctors tried to force water down Marthe Robin's throat, it merely went out her nostrils. Other priestly eyewitnesses have reported seeing Eucharistic hosts fly from their hands into Marthe Robin's mouth!

In the case of Alexandrina da Costa, there was even a detailed medical examination that seemed to suggest she really was completely unable to eat anything except the Eucharist. My brother said in reply that one would need atheist witnesses for there to be any possibility of claimed miracles were true, and that the Catholic Church would not have allowed neutral observers to investigate these cases, which were designed to shore up the power of the Church when a majority of Europe's working classes were Marxist and evidence against such miracles might support atheism and oppose God.

To be fair, there is no doubt that there is a gulf between mainstream science and those who claim Luisa Piccaretta lived without food and water for about a thousand times longer than what The Guinness Book of Records claimed as the longest proven total fast (Eucharistic wafers have so little nourishment that they cannot be counted). I would certainly like to see this issue, and that of the stigmata always related to such Eucharistic fasts (the stigmatist is said to live literally on the Body of Jesus) examined by people outside the Church and the amazed (like myself). I would hope that the cultural conflicts which characterise society today might be resolved or eased, even though I know such resolution will not satisfy everybody.

Edited by mianfei (04/11/11 01:57 AM)

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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: mianfei]
    #14270641 - 04/11/11 03:39 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Your mom and brother sound pretty smart.

Science remains unconvinced of phenomena that people "witness" regularly, because these phenomena either do not really happen, or they happen so rarely that science cannot establish that they really do happen.

Do you not find it coincidental that all of the women who supposedly survived on nothing but the eucharist were completely bedridden and unhealthy?  How many calories do you think they would need to live? Certainly not nearly as much as a normal person.  I wouldn't be surprised if they snuck a snack now and then either.


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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: mianfei]
    #14271957 - 04/11/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Do you realize that your sources for your claims all come from websites run by religious nutcases right? Those authors can write whatever they want, and have no actual scientific sources. They can claim whatever they want.

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OfflineZenXi6
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14274572 - 04/11/11 08:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How has no one yet (unless I missed it somewhere, in which case, profuse apologise!) brought up James Randi in all of this?

There've been a few people up here putting up methods they think would tick all the scientific boxes (which guys, I guarantee, they don't.. but keep trying!), but if you really want to put them to the test, and possibly win yourself a million bucks to get your further research on the way, then head over to James Randi's site, and take his challenge!  RANDI.ORG

The simple reason why these questions haven't had valid answers yet, is that everyone who delves into subjective territory makes a LOT of presumptions about things, uses subjective language to explain phenomena (which ain't gonna be much good in science, considering science is the study of the objective/objective as we can get things).

Talk of healings and vibes and blah blah are all pretty new words wrapped up in relatively new explanations and methods, even though the same phenomena can be seen throughout many civilisations and cultures, with different names, explanations, uses, methodologies...

Science has been studying one of the biggest things that enters into these territories though, and that is - THE PLACEBO EFFECT. 
And I don't even mean to diminish these things by saying it's placebo, because it turns out placebo is far more powerful than we first thought.. it's also opened a veritable jar of worms...

There's a lot of confusing territory out there, where down-right liars and entrepeneurs of all sorts just want to squeeze money out of the gullible public, or assert themselves in some powerful position for whatever selfish means, but that's not to say that all of it is absolute bollocks, or we souldn't bother with the arts, philosophy and other such endeavours, would we?


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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14281561 - 04/12/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HeavyToilet said:Those authors can write whatever they want, and have no actual scientific sources. They can claim whatever they want.


I think it is simplistic to think that these people can claim whatever they want - they would deny it wholeheartedly, believing they are bound by natural laws that are denied by the majority of the population today, as Benjamin Wiker says in his book Moral Darwinism. They would argue, as Adalbert Albert Vogl says in Thèrése Neumann: Mystic and Stigmatist, that such supernatural feats of fasting are an act of God, and so is the evolution of life (intelligent design) and quite probably that the reason such women were chosen for such supernatural sufferings and mystical phenomena is that the majority of working- and middle-class Europeans were openly and deliberately defying God’s laws and plans for humanity. It is very true that the countries where most of these miracles are claimed were during the period essentially atheist nations ruled by devoutly Catholic ruling classes who could not counter the manner in which industrialisation destroyed their subjects’ faith in God in favour of faith in socialism, often in terms of workers’ revolution to destroy the ruling class completely. (In practice, however, the opposing classes did try to compromise to avoid conflict they saw as too damaging).

This is why the most socially conservative parts of the “Christian” world - Australia and “Red” America - have produced no stigmatists or inedics despite large Catholic populations in many areas. Ruling classes in Australia and “Red” America during the twentieth century were not - as Europe’s were - massively more socially conservative than the general population. Indeed, they were often less conservative and more supportive of the policies so criticised by the Right today.

The real question that neither reading books on these women nor trying to talk to my mother and brother can achieve is: who is really biased and who has the most vested interests at heart?? In such a culturally and socially conflicted environment as early and middle twentieth century Europe, both sides have their own and absolutely opposite interests and are naturally going to whitewash or ignore evidence against them.

The key reason why I cannot completely reject the notion that the miracles claimed of Thèrése Neumann, Marthe Robin, Luisa Piccaretta, Alexandrina da Costa and some others is that no atheist has ever tried seriously to come up with a sufficiently detailed explanation of how these people would have lived that does not contradict eyewitness evidence recorded in their biographies, photos and even on videos on YouTube. When my brother says that the stigmata one can see in pictures was faked pigs’ blood, I really laugh hilariously!

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OfflineZenXi6
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: mianfei]
    #14281589 - 04/13/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mianfei said:
The key reason why I cannot completely reject the notion that the miracles claimed of Thèrése Neumann, Marthe Robin, Luisa Piccaretta, Alexandrina da Costa and some others is that no atheist has ever tried seriously to come up with a sufficiently detailed explanation of how these people would have lived that does not contradict eyewitness evidence recorded in their biographies, photos and even on videos on YouTube. When my brother says that the stigmata one can see in pictures was faked pigs’ blood, I really laugh hilariously!





I put to you - Those who are sufficiently fooled by a magicians ploy will record it as actual magic.

There are plenty of videos by amateurs and professionals alike on the internet showing how people can perform such "miracles" as stigmata, simply by misleading an audience.

Just because someone BELIEVES it's really happening (as some cold-readers and psychics believe), doesn't count as evidence for it. 

Since the trick can be re-created by magicians, hence revealing how to perform such a feat, then it is back in the ballpark of the "believer" to prove that it was an otherwise outside source.


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OfflineZenXi6
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Re: Why does science remain ignorant or unconvinced of phenomena many people witness regularly? [Re: johnm214]
    #14281620 - 04/13/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
But I don't think your analogies are really all that on point.  The reason vibes and stuff like that are easy to test is because a) people know about them, and b) people can detect them.  Therefore, we measure their detection of them.  If people are no different when vibes are sent then when they are not, then we can rule out vibes having certain properties in such and such situations.  If we imagine vibes to have even a small inconcistant effect, it would be trivial to measure such with questionars measuring mental state, mood, that allready exist and have been used for objective determination of people's behavior, self determined mood.





Also, this is the least science-thing I've ever heard.

Trust me, if you make me the vibe receiver, I won't feel anything.  Guaranteed.
I can be your control subject.  You have two people, one sends vibes to another.  If I don't feel it too, then they're just making it up... WANTING to feel vibes.

That brain up there is a powerful tool, indeed!  But, just as you can manifest "vibes", so too can I manifest not-vibes.

There is nothing objective or scientific there.  (Hence the entire title of this thread is null and void)


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