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Offlinerobbyberto
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Gastronomicus]
    #15492508 - 12/09/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Damn I remember watching the Braves play in Coor's Field in the 90's and being amazed by Walker, Bichete, and Castilla. Those niggas could swing it back in the day.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15494773 - 12/10/11 09:59 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anthony said:
Derek Jeter is one of the greatest players of all time...

I'm done arguing zappa, because I know that most baseball fans agree with me. Your arguments are mediocre at best, and you seem to be so stubborn that you will ignore some of pete's amazing accomplishments and instead focus on his stealing % whatever brah




I'm not focusing on them.  I'm pointing out that they diminish his OBP and OPS to even more mediocre levels
Quote:



20 seasons of Swishers 2011 stats:

BA: .260
Hits: 2740
Runs: 1620
RBI: 1700
HR: 460
2B:600





How come you leave out his OBP and slugging?
Quote:



you are smoking crack if you don't think he'd be in the HOF.




There are a lot of compilers in the HOF who I don't think belong there.  Latest example is Bert Blyleven.
Quote:



There are plenty of players way worse than Rose who are currently in the Hall. He deserves to be there too.




Sadly that is true.  But I do not believe any of them bet on baseball or signed a document accepting his punishment.  Maybe after the cunt is dead.


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15495023 - 12/10/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I still think you are foolish for saying that a .370 OBP is bad. Take a look at MLB career OBP totals
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/onbase_perc_career.shtml

you will see Pete Rose is currently ranked 211th. Thats a looooong list.


I figured these stats of swishers would be harder to calculate a 20 year average, since you can't just multiply these numbers by 20...
So, let's just assume swishers obp and slg don't change.

Career stats:
BA: .260
OBP: .374
SLG: .449
Hits: 2740 (#54 all time)
Runs: 1620 (#44 all time)
RBI: 1700 (#24 all time)
HR: 460 (#33 all time)
2B:600 (#15 all time)

That would undoubtedly be a career worthy of the hall of fame.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15495176 - 12/10/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

An OBP of .370 isn't bad.  It doesn't blow me away but it isn't bad.  Why do you persist in completely ignoring the power factor?  The guy hit like a member of the Jesus and Mary Chain and I don't mean Jesus.  Plus he basically had no defensive usefulness at all.

I saw his whole career.  He was never that good.  He just stuck around for a long time.  The HOF should be for excellence.  Pete was never really excellent, just prolific.


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15495210 - 12/10/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

because there are many factors to consider besides power. Personally, I don't think power or HRs are the end all be all stat of baseball. I am much more interested in an individual players value to their club. If we look at Pete Roses WAR, we see that he is ranked #45 overall http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

boss.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15495307 - 12/10/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anthony said:
because there are many factors to consider besides power. Personally, I don't think power or HRs are the end all be all stat of baseball.




I never said it was the end all and be all of stats.  But it is immensely important and that is an undeniable fact
Quote:



I am much more interested in an individual players value to their club. If we look at Pete Roses WAR, we see that he is ranked #45 overall http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

boss.



That was interesting.  You provide a list of total WAR.  Rose played 24 years and got 75.3 TOTAL (75.3/24=3.14).  That's an average of just over 3 a year.  That is a crappy average for a HOF argument.  Move down 11 places and you have Lou Whitaker, brilliant 2nd baseman, who played 19 years with an average WAR per season of better than 3.5 (69.7/19=3.67).  He doesn't get a sniff.  You know who else has a better per season WAR?  Willie Randolph (60.5/18=3.36).  He doesn't get a sniff.  Rose was a compiler.  That's all.


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15495416 - 12/10/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

regardless he was still one of the best hitters ever. even if he never scored a single run, he still got 4,256 hits. That is FUCKING INSANE.

Name an active player who you think has a chance at coming close...there isn't one. If Ichiro had played his whole career in the MLB, I bet he'd have beaten it...and I watched Ichiros whole career in the bigs, and it's incredible to watch him hit. Even if they are just slapped singles over the 2nd basemans head...hitting is such an art.

Pete was one of the best hitters in the history of the game. Not to mention from both sides of the plate! I played baseball and I was a switch hitter...it's a completely different approach from both sides.

I'm trying to find out if I can see what the results were for his ABs that were taken right handed vs left handed. idk if those stats exist. I imagine he had more power from one side of the plate than the other, but he sacrificed a lot of his power for the sake of hits. Consider that Pete Rose is 9th overall in Runs Created.

idk, it seems to me like you're just butthurt that he bet on the game


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15495664 - 12/10/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anthony said:
regardless he was still one of the best hitters ever. even if he never scored a single run, he still got 4,256 hits. That is FUCKING INSANE.




Didf you know that the game results are determined by runs scored?  He most certainly was not one of the greatest hitters ever.  He was wimp who persisted.
Quote:



Name an active player who you think has a chance at coming close...there isn't one. If Ichiro had played his whole career in the MLB, I bet he'd have beaten it...and I watched Ichiros whole career in the bigs, and it's incredible to watch him hit. Even if they are just slapped singles over the 2nd basemans head...hitting is such an art.




I don't expect anybody to reach that number because I don't expect competitive teams to continue to give a roster spot to such a mediocrity for so long again.
Quote:



Pete was one of the best hitters in the history of the game. Not to mention from both sides of the plate! I played baseball and I was a switch hitter...it's a completely different approach from both sides.




Pete wasn't even one of the best hitters during his career. 
Quote:


I'm trying to find out if I can see what the results were for his ABs that were taken right handed vs left handed. idk if those stats exist.


  Who gives a shit.  He was a limp dick from both sides of the plate.
Quote:

 
I imagine he had more power from one side of the plate than the other, but he sacrificed a lot of his power for the sake of hits. Consider that Pete Rose is 9th overall in Runs Created.



Are you saying Pete put personal stats ahead of team?  You keep bringing up all these compiled stats.  Yeah, he played forever.  No shit.  Just not all that well.
Quote:



idk, it seems to me like you're just butthurt that he bet on the game




Nope, although that certainly counts.  I saw his whole career.  I thought the whole Charlie Hustle bullshit was annoying and that he wasn't very good.  Yeah, he banged a millions singles.  He ran the bases like an idiot, he was useless on defense and he had zero power.


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15495793 - 12/10/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well that was one of the worst retorts of the whole debate.

Hitting an MLB fastball is said to be the hardest thing to do in sports. I believe that. Pete Rose could hit, it doesn't matter how far the ball goes. That takes incredible skill. I get the impression that you have never played baseball.

Here's something to consider that you chose to neglect from my last post.

Pete Rose is ranked #9 Overall in Runs Created.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/RC_career.shtml

how is the argument that "oh his stats are only so good cause he played forever" even being posed? Not very many players are able to play for that long and still produce. The last few years of his career definitely were not stellar by any means...but i don't think that matters

the fact that he played 24 seasons is only a testament to his love of the game. How many players do you think will play even 20 seasons? Not many.



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Edited by Anthony (12/10/11 02:12 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15495862 - 12/10/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anthony said:
Well that was one of the worst retorts of the whole debate.

Hitting an MLB fastball is said to be the hardest thing to do in sports. I believe that. Pete Rose could hit, it doesn't matter how far the ball goes. That takes incredible skill. I get the impression that you have never played baseball.




Actually, hitting a fastball is one of the easiest things do as a hitter.  The minor leagues are full of players who can hit fastballs.  And yes, it does matter how far you hit the fucking ball.  Are you shitting me?

I've played.  I was a light hitting infielder with terrific on base percentage.
Quote:



Here's something to consider that you chose to neglect from my last post.

Pete Rose is ranked #9 Overall in Runs Created.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/RC_career.shtml




I didn't neglect to consider anything.  You keep bringing up career totals while I keep arguing that he only has big totals because he played forever.  At no time was he ever great.  At no time.  His season averages are not impressive.  Fact.
Quote:



how is the argument that "oh his stats are only so good cause he played forever" even being posed? Not very many players are able to play for that long and still produce. The last few years of his career definitely were not stellar by any means...but i don't think that matters.




Oh no, I don't think his stats are great at all.  I think his totals are impressive but that doesn't mean his stats are.  His stats are just not that good. 
Quote:



the fact that he played 24 seasons is only a testament to his love of the game. How many players do you think will play even 20 seasons? Not many.






As far as I have been able to tell the only love Pete Rose has is for Pete Rose.  If he loved the game so fucking much why did he break the most sacred rule?  Really, spit that cock out.


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15495942 - 12/10/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

If you were a light hitting infielder then you'd think you'd understand the concept that it doesnt matter how far you hit the ball.
Ichiro is without a doubt the best hitter to ever play the game. His OBP is .370 and SLG is .421. It doesn't matter! It does not matter that Ichiro didn't hit for power because that's not the type of player that he was. Same as Rose wasn't the type of player you're bashing him for not being.

You don't seem to grasp the value of a player like Pete Rose.

Are you shitting me Zappa? It is not easy to hit an MLB fastball, not even for the best players in the game. Plus I said it is the hardest thing to do in sports. And...uhh...AAA players are not batting against MLB pitchers.

Perfect example: Mariano Rivera, who only threw fastballs, yet he's the greatest closer of all time.

I can't wrap my head around this way of thinking. Pete Rose was never stellar? Never?

What about in 1973?

BA: .338
Hits: 230
Runs: 115
RBI: 64
Doubles: 36
Triples: 8
HR: 5

.401 OBP
.437 SLG

That is stellar. That's why he won the MVP.

Zappa you are so wrong it is painful to even read your replies. You seem to lack a great amount of general baseball sense and common knowledge. Idk if you're just too stubborn to admit that you're wrong, or if you truly believe that the season I posted above isn't "stellar". I think the latter is more frightening.

"he only has 4,256 hits cause he played forever, not cause he was good at hitting the ball"
"he only scored 2,165 runs cause he played forever, not cause he was good at getting on base"

:facepalm:


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Offlinelsdank268
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15496376 - 12/10/11 04:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anthony said:

What about in 1973?

BA: .338
Hits: 230
Runs: 115
RBI: 64
Doubles: 36
Triples: 8
HR: 5

.401 OBP
.437 SLG [quote/]

Nope..not enough power or RBI :trollhide:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15496655 - 12/10/11 05:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anthony said:
If you were a light hitting infielder then you'd think you'd understand the concept that it doesnt matter how far you hit the ball.
Quote:



Actually it gave me a greater appreciation for those who can.  Are you really going to argue that a single is just as good as a double?



Ichiro is without a doubt the best hitter to ever play the game. His OBP is .370 and SLG is .421. It doesn't matter! It does not matter that Ichiro didn't hit for power because that's not the type of player that he was. Same as Rose wasn't the type of player you're bashing him for not being.



Ichiro is the best hitter ever?  :facepalm:  Just stop.  OPS under .800?  Really?
Quote:



You don't seem to grasp the value of a player like Pete Rose.


  They have their uses.  A nice number 7 hitter
Quote:



Are you shitting me Zappa? It is not easy to hit an MLB fastball, not even for the best players in the game. Plus I said it is the hardest thing to do in sports. And...uhh...AAA players are not batting against MLB pitchers.




What has always distinguished crowd from the maybe good enough hitters is the ability to hit the breaking ball.  By the time they get a sniff at the bigs everybody can hit a fastball
Quote:



Perfect example: Mariano Rivera, who only threw fastballs, yet he's the greatest closer of all time.




A cut fastball is kind of a breaking ball but lots of people can have a great career never getting a hit off Mariano Rivera no matter what he throws.
Quote:



I can't wrap my head around this way of thinking. Pete Rose was never stellar? Never?

What about in 1973?

BA: .338
Hits: 230
Runs: 115
RBI: 64
Doubles: 36
Triples: 8
HR: 5

.401 OBP
.437 SLG

That is stellar. That's why he won the MVP.

Zappa you are so wrong it is painful to even read your replies. You seem to lack a great amount of general baseball sense and common knowledge. Idk if you're just too stubborn to admit that you're wrong, or if you truly believe that the season I posted above isn't "stellar". I think the latter is more frightening.




That was bullshit.  Runs plus RBI well under 200 (at highest  13th and that includes people who missed quite a bit).  OPS .838 (Last year good for 35th).  Has there ever been a worse MVP winner?
Quote:



Zappa you are so wrong it is painful to even read your replies. You seem to lack a great amount of general baseball sense and common knowledge. Idk if you're just too stubborn to admit that you're wrong, or if you truly believe that the season I posted above isn't "stellar". I think the latter is more frightening.


"he only has 4,256 hits cause he played forever, not cause he was good at hitting the ball"
"he only scored 2,165 runs cause he played forever, not cause he was good at getting on base"

:facepalm:




He was very good at getting on base.  He sucked at moving other players on base along.  They are both important.  And yes, he is a compiler who was never great.  Not HOF.  Regardless


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15496801 - 12/10/11 06:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

99% of the baseball community would disagree.

when I say best hitter in baseball, i'm not looking at RBIs, OPS, any of that...its about putting the bat on the ball and getting hits. Singles even. I would argue that a batter who hit .400 but never hit a single home run or RBI is a better hitter than the guy who batted .220 with 40 HR and 100 RBI.
Maybe he's not as valuable to the team, but he is still a better technical hitter.


Pete Rose has 1314 RBI's...94th all time. But apparently he sucked at moving runners along. Because that's what REALLY matters. Not getting singles and scoring those runs :facepalm:

The only other players in MLB history to finish their careers with 2000+ Runs and 1000+ RBIs are:
Ricky Henderson (25 Seasons)
Ty Cobb (24 Seasons)
Barry Bonds (22 Seasons)
Hank Aaron (23 Seasons)
Babe Ruth (22 Seasons)
Willie Mays (22 Seasons)


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15497562 - 12/10/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

on another note, Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's! I'm kind of pissed off to be honest...I really liked Braun...this completely ruins his integrity imo.

I think PED's should be a lifetime ban on the first offense. That is much worse of an offense than betting on baseball imo. Fucking cheaters!

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111210&content_id=26144628&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb#disqus_thread

i can't wait to hear what braun has to say


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InvisibleshLong
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15497663 - 12/10/11 09:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, wow...Braun.          FT.....L. :sad:

I'm in WI and its all over the local news. Things just keeping looking better for my Cubs though.


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: shLong]
    #15497687 - 12/10/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

dude i think the cubs will be in the playoffs in the next 2 years


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InvisibleshLong
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: Anthony]
    #15497731 - 12/10/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

They have some bad contracts to wait out, but with the new gm, I think 2-3 years they'll start being perinneal contenders


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Offlinelsdank268
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: shLong]
    #15497903 - 12/10/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah I'm ashamed to say I held Braun with a very high regard. He was one of the few players I respected no matter what he did against my team. He recently took a second test that came back negative, but he's basically on a vacation right now and probably hasn't been working out seriously since his season ended. So yeah, he tested negative, but maybe he just hasn't been suing them since he is taking it easy now.

Side Side note: I think Prince is on PED's. What vegetarian is that big and strong without some sort of enhancement?!


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OfflineAnthony
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Re: Baseball Talk 2011 [Re: lsdank268]
    #15497930 - 12/10/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

the MLB has never reversed a PED ban. I doubt Braun will get any kind of special treatment.

Quote:

espn said...
MLB's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Policy calls for strict liability among players, meaning if a player tests positive, the league is "not required to otherwise establish intent, fault, negligence or knowing use of a Prohibited Substance on the Player's part to establish such a violation."

Even if a player can establish he did not knowingly take a banned substance, he must show he was not in any way negligent to appeal successfully. For example, taking a dietary supplement that contains an unlabeled performance-enhancing drug would not be sufficient grounds for appeal, but if he were to show that he ingested something that was either tampered with or no player reasonably could have assumed to have been contaminated, the appeal might succeed.




http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7338271/ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-tests-positive-performance-enhancing-drug


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