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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: xFrockx]
    #14277079 - 04/12/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

France already has laws against domestic abuse for that red herring.

That's only effective if the woman reports it to secular authorities (or at all).

Muslims in the UK recently pushed to have their internal civil and criminal issues adjudicated outside the indigenous judicial system such that all Muslims in UK would be bound by Sharia law, not UK law.

Although the effort ultimately failed, it did gain some traction and illustrates my point. A Muslim woman threatened by her husband is voluntarily unlikely to complain about it because her religion expects that of her. As it expects her to wear the burka.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14277100 - 04/12/11 09:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Here in the states, I would like to see a ban on sombreros and Mariachi music. Hey, where is Poid?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14277110 - 04/12/11 09:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"That's only effective if the woman reports it to secular authorities (or at all)."

And what if they are beaten by their husbands for not wearing their hijabs, and they decide not to report that? Ought we not repeal this law for encouraging domestic abuse?

"Muslims in the UK recently pushed to have their internal civil and criminal issues adjudicated outside the indigenous judicial system such that all Muslims in UK would be bound by Sharia law, not UK law.

Although the effort ultimately failed, it did gain some traction and illustrated my point. A Muslim woman threatened by her husband is voluntarily unlikely to complain about it because her religion expects that of her. As it expects her to wear the burka. "

What is your point? That the muslim religion stands in conflict with freedom of the person? Absolutely. But when it comes to stopping a woman from wearing a piece of clothing, it is the law that is in conflict with the freedom of the person.

If you want to make laws that protect women from domestic abuse, or create ways for them to report abuse to their mosque or other places where they might feel comfortable, SURE.


BUT TAKING AWAY A NAPKIN ISN'T GOING TO SOLVE SHIT.


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
motional
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Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: xFrockx]
    #14277256 - 04/12/11 10:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

France is pretty heavy on the socialism, which means sometimes taking legal steps which, one would hope, in the opinions of the leaders, are to the benefit of the many even if they impinge upon the assumed rights of the individual. 

Quote:

And what if they are beaten by their husbands for not wearing their hijabs, and they decide not to report that? Ought we not repeal this law for encouraging domestic abuse?




Perhaps, but in that case the woman's options to end the abuse -- reporting it to the authorities or wearing the burka, would result in attention being directed toward the woman's situation, whereas previously a veil of silence could prevail. 

I don't think the French authorities are under any illusions that freedom to cover one's face or not is an ideal, but right now they consider this law the lesser evil, and a means to lessen it further in time.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: xFrockx]
    #14277293 - 04/12/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And what if they are beaten by their husbands for not wearing their hijabs, and they decide not to report that? Ought we not repeal this law for encouraging domestic abuse?

That wasn't my point. My point was to refute your claim that there are existing EFFECTIVE laws against domestic abuse. Those laws are not effective in the case of a tightly closed misogynistic culture out to take over the world (see the quote I provided a few posts back). This is especially true in the context of a woman at what I see as such a pathological extreme that she walks around actually wearing a sheet over her head.

But when it comes to stopping a woman from wearing a piece of clothing, it is the law that is in conflict with the freedom of the person.

Not if that person is wearing a sheet over her head for fear of getting her ass kicked by her husband, and even more afraid of going to authorities to report it. I see this as a real situation happening right now.

And it's not a piece of clothing. It is deeply culturally ingrained misogynism.

And all that aside, we're talking about France, not the US. That culture sees freedom differently than Americans do. You demonstrate the usual American hubris that our way is the best and only way and France should "shut up and do it our way".

I applaud them for telling the world to "shut up and mind your own business". And for telling Muslims to "integrate or get the fuck out".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 18 hours
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14277320 - 04/12/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Not if that person is wearing a sheet over her head for fear of getting her ass kicked by her husband, and even more afraid of going to authorities to report it. I see this as a real situation happening right now."

What does the napkin do to cause abuse or prevent its reporting again?

"It is deeply culturally ingrained misogynism."

Culturally engrained, lol. America, 1950 - 2011. Culture what? What culture?

"I applaud them for telling the world to "shut up and mind your own business". And for telling Muslims to "integrate or get the fuck out". "

I applaud your laughable defense of ethnocentrism and promotion of human divisions and attempts to force conformity. Hell, why don't we ban grateful dead tee shirts? It promotes a drug culture of insanity, murder, and grotesque sexual acts!!

:huxleyfacepalm:


Edited by xFrockx (04/12/11 10:41 AM)


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OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14277353 - 04/12/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
They aren't forced to wear it, they wear it because that is their religion

It's just as likely that they wear it because their husband will beat the shit out of them if they don't.





I would like to have a graemlin of Poid with a speech balloon with the text, "Source?"


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: xFrockx]
    #14277578 - 04/12/11 11:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What does the napkin do to cause abuse or prevent its reporting again?

It doesn't cause or prevent it. It's is a symptom of it.

I applaud your laughable defense of ethnocentrism and promotion of human divisions and attempts to force conformity.

You're one to talk about forcing conformity. It is YOU who's telling French society to conform to American ideals. I'm simply accepting what the French culture has decided.

Hell, why don't we ban grateful dead tee shirts?

What does this have to do with the price of tea? We're talking about France and French culture and attitudes toward freedom, not America and Grateful Dead t-shirts.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Freedom]
    #14277585 - 04/12/11 11:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said: It's just as likely that they wear it because their husband will beat the shit out of them if they don't.



I would like to have a graemlin of Poid with a speech balloon with the text, "Source?"

OK, here ya go:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=426_1181556194


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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 18 hours
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14277683 - 04/12/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"It doesn't cause or prevent it. It's is a symptom of it."

And it is best to treat disease by treating the symptoms, right? Why waste time trying to find the cure for cancer when we have NyQuil?

"You're one to talk about forcing conformity. It is YOU who's telling French society to conform to American ideals. I'm simply accepting what the French culture has decided."

The french culture has no tongue. People within France decided to restrain other people inside France.

"We're talking about France and French culture and attitudes toward freedom, not America and Grateful Dead t-shirts. "

Freedom is freedom. Restraint is restraint.


Edited by xFrockx (04/12/11 12:18 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: DieCommie]
    #14278334 - 04/12/11 02:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
No, but it sends a message that the fundamentalists strains of Islam are not to be tolerated.



Fundamentalism feeds on oppression.  That was Turkey's experience when they banned the burqa.  As the restrictions were eased up, too did the forces of extremism.

Quote:

France isnt about free speech and freedom or religion like america is.  They have a different culture and a different way of life, they arn't americans.



I love how you're using cultural relativism against multiculturalism.


Furthermore, I would like to know what kind of mental gymnastics people here have to do to simultaneously believe that people have a right to do whatever drug they want, but feel perfectly justified in banning an article of clothing.


--------------------


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OfflineShroomerette
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Registered: 10/12/10
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Silversoul]
    #14278367 - 04/12/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Furthermore, I would like to know what kind of mental gymnastics people here have to do to simultaneously believe that people have a right to do whatever drug they want, but feel perfectly justified in banning an article of clothing.




No mental gymnastics needed for me.  I think people should be able to do drugs at home or in predesignated areas, not anywhere they want.  The women can wear burqas at home or in predesignated areas like mosques.


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14278394 - 04/12/11 02:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So let's take the crosses from the Christians too, they might offend someone or be used wrongly. How about bumper stickers? No more bumper stickers either, public expressions of belief are unnecessary, and can be forbidden.

How about we adopt a uniform civilian dress code for use in public spaces? This way we don't have to ban everything, we can just require that people follow the uniform code. Brilliant! No more hate or oppression in the world, finally!


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Offlinepouihi
Mary Jane Doe
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: xFrockx]
    #14307409 - 04/17/11 04:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

People... the banning of the burka and the niqba is due to having civilian walking around completely covered, as you can imagine, many people who aren't in fact muslims could take advantage of that to harm others.

France as banned in many (if not all) schools the use of ANY kind of religious symbol, be it catholic, jewish, muslim, pagan, or whatever.

The question here comes to this: we all know that for example, if we visit most of the muslim countries, being a woman, we are obligated to wear a piece of cloth around our heads just because their religion says so, we already know that that kind of freedom does not exist there, but should that mean we should be as close-minded has them?

One of the things we occidentals "brag" about is the variety of our multicultural populations, freedom and etc and now we end up imposing rules, and obligating someone to put themselves in a way which is not theirs according to their belief (as some we do to us somewhere in the middle-east).


--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Silversoul]
    #14307679 - 04/17/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:

Quote:

France isnt about free speech and freedom or religion like america is.  They have a different culture and a different way of life, they arn't americans.



I love how you're using cultural relativism against multiculturalism.





Of course.  Not all cultures are multicultural and just because we are doesn't mean that they should be.  If we do insist that they should be, then we would not longer be multicultural ourselves.

(What I take from this paradox is that multiculturalism is not to be taken as an end unto it self, rather it is only valid as a means to some other end.)


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307731 - 04/17/11 05:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Sounds ok to me.  Islam is a pox on Europe, they need to fight to preserve their culture.  (Although, this is too little and too late.)



Right, because banning the burqa will totally make Islam go away.




No, but it sends a message that the fundamentalists strains of Islam are not to be tolerated.




Yeah, by fundamentalist christians, like the french.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinepouihi
Mary Jane Doe
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: DieCommie]
    #14307745 - 04/17/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so multicultural that you allow jackasses like terry jones  :roulette:


--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Diploid]
    #14310401 - 04/18/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I applaud them... for telling Muslims to "integrate or get the fuck out".




I'm actually a bit surprised to see someone so passionate about someone else preserving social homogeneity through legislation. :shocked:
It's definitely very important for people to be able to walk on the street without seeing someone dressed differently and subsequently feeling uncomfortable and frightened.:yesnod:

Ahh, but I think I understand that it's a different story, that's it's not actually a simple case of some kind of cultural phobia, because these women and the way that they dress (no doubt against their will) are all actually part of a twisted plot for evil, global domination. :what:
:rofl2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesandi
omg


Registered: 04/11/11
Posts: 796
Loc: M6 (Butterfly Cluster)
Re: All your face are belong to us - Burka Ban [Re: Freedom]
    #14310420 - 04/18/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
that sounds a lot like catholic missionaries :lol:




Except there aren't extremist Catholics going out and blowing things up and suicide bombing in the name of Jesus or God or whatever. France can do whatever they want, and good for them. If people don't like it, they will leave. I guess that's what France is going for?


--------------------


Edited by sandi (05/22/11 07:00 AM)


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