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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Some are happy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1426808 - 04/03/03 05:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1428119 - 04/04/03 06:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Are you serious? Do you think there's any purpose to giving someone 1 dollar and taking 13 dollars off him at the same time?

We have had this discussion before, and it appears you are no more capable of grasping the principles involved now than you were then. For whatever reason, the new search doesn't seem to be able to find those old posts, so let me lay it out for yet again --

Loans are loans, and are expected to be repaid. Gifts are gifts, and are not expected to be repaid. How difficult can it be to grasp the difference between the two?

The fact is that the ratio of debt repayments to gifts is actually a meaningless figure -- you might as well compare the ratio of debt repayment to GDP or inflation or unemployment or even to the opening night take of the latest movie showing in Mogadishu. Loans are loans and gifts are gifts. What purpose does it serve to compare the two? The US, for example, doesn't get any gifts, just loans, so what figure should we use to express their debt repayment to gift ratio? We could say:

"For every dollar the US receives in foreign aid, it has to repay 4 trillion dollars." That statement is every bit as accurate as the one about the African nations, and every bit as meaningless.

Other than cheap publicity to convince people like you that George Bush is saving the world?

What has this to do with George Bush? Developed nations have been supplying loans and gifts to developing nations long before Bush became president, and will continue to do so long after he is gone.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1428395 - 04/04/03 10:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so let me lay it out for yet again

If it's the same "argument" you attempted last time I really wish you wouldn't bother..

Loans are loans, and are expected to be repaid

Oh dear..it is the same horseshit as last time.

The fact is that the ratio of debt repayments to gifts is actually a meaningless figure

Yes, it's just the difference between life and death. Meaningless I suppose...

What purpose does it serve to compare the two?

Let me get this right. You think it's a reasonable policy to give a poverty stricken country 1 dollar in aid, and take 13 dollars back from it? That's your proposition is it?

The US, for example, doesn't get any gifts

Well, lets try and get some reality into this discussion. A lot of the loans go straight to western corporations setting up in the country for "development" you understand. The population of the country is then left to pick up the tab for money they never saw.

Developed nations have been supplying loans and gifts to developing nations

I know. That's why they're starving.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1428472 - 04/04/03 11:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

If it's the same "argument" you attempted last time I really wish you wouldn't bother..

I realize that you won't bother to attempt to understand it, but there are others reading this thread who do have a grasp of reason.

Let me get this right. You think it's a reasonable policy to give a poverty stricken country 1 dollar in aid, and take 13 dollars back from it? That's your proposition is it?

But that isn't what happens, Alex, and you know it. For some reason I fail to comprehend, you choose to pretend you don't. What actually happens is this:

Countries aren't given a million dollars in foreign aid (read gift) and then asked to repay 13 million. One need not repay a gift. If these countries subsisted solely on gifts, no one would ever ask them to repay a dollar, much less thirteen dollars.

What actually happens is that a country is given a million dollars in aid, and then borrows an additional eleven million or so in the form of loans. The term of the loan may be five or ten years, the principal and interest to be repaid may total 13 million. Please note these figures are approximate, and the exact figures of course depend on the interest charged and the time period for repayment. They are used merely to clarify the principle under discussion.

So it has never been a question of a country receiving a million dollars and having to repay thirteen million, it is a question of a country receiving twelve million dollars (eleven in loans plus one as a gift) and having to repay thirteen million -- if, of course, the debt isn't written off, as is often the case.

A lot of the loans go straight to western corporations setting up in the country for "development" you understand. The population of the country is then left to pick up the tab for money they never saw.

And as long as the leaders of those countries have the power to sign for loans without a plebiscite of the populace authorizing them to do so, loans will continue to be made. What's your point? Are you saying that developing nations shouldn't be loaned money?

Developed nations have been supplying loans and gifts to developing nations
I know. That's why they're starving.

Pardon me? Developing nations are starving because they receive outright gifts of cash as well as loans made under the most preferential terms available anywhere? Are you trying to say the solution for world hunger is to cut off all monetary assistance to them?

That's an odd sentiment for a Socialist to express.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1428488 - 04/04/03 11:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

you're wasting your time ya know...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1428616 - 04/04/03 12:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I realize that you won't bother to attempt to understand it

There really is nothing to "understand".

So it has never been a question of a country receiving a million dollars and having to repay thirteen million

It's a question of a government recieving 1 million in an attempt to feed it's people while having to pay rich countries 13 million. Where is the logic in this?

Are you saying that developing nations shouldn't be loaned money?

If the population sees any of it, yes. If it goes straight into the pockets of rich western corporations and must then be paid back by starving people, no.

Developing nations are starving because they receive outright gifts of cash as well as loans

If for every dollar you give in gift you take 13 back in debt repayment the country is going to starve. This truly isn't hard to understand.

Are you trying to say the solution for world hunger is to cut off all monetary assistance to them?

If you call "monetary assistance" giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 back then yep, amazingly enough, the country could do very well without such "monetary assistance".

The best way would be to forget about buying off public opinon with "aid" and forget the debts the starving people, who never saw any of the "loan" in the first place have to pay.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Registered: 04/10/99
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1428710 - 04/04/03 12:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex, you need some lessons on logic and debate.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Some are happy [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1428816 - 04/04/03 01:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you're wasting your time ya know...



He knows but apparently he has a heart of gold and the patience of a saint.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430166 - 04/04/03 10:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

There really is nothing to "understand".

Actually, there is. You must understand that a loan is not the same as a gift.

It's a question of a government recieving 1 million in an attempt to feed it's people while having to pay rich countries 13 million. Where is the logic in this?

The logic is that it is not a question of a government receiving 1 million, but 12 million. Reread the previous post with a pencil and paper at hand and do the math. Slowly.

Now note that if the country decides to take no LOANS, they don't have to repay even a single dollar, let alone 13 million dollars. There is no such thing as "gift repayment", there is only loan repayment. No loans, no repayment. It's that simple.

If the population sees any of it, yes. If it goes straight into the pockets of rich western corporations and must then be paid back by starving people, no.

And by what mechanism can the company or government providing the loan enforce this proviso?

If for every dollar you give in gift you take 13 back in debt repayment the country is going to starve. This truly isn't hard to understand.

See the above several posts for the difference between a loan and a gift.

If you call "monetary assistance" giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 back then yep, amazingly enough, the country could do very well without such "monetary assistance".

But no one defines it that way except you. I certainly don't, nor does the source you quote. I don't know how to make this any clearer except through repetition -- they are not being given a dollar then having thirteen taken from them. They are being given a dollar for free -- no strings attached, nothing taken from them at all.

The fact that they may also choose to apply for and receive loans in addition to the gifts has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the dollars given as gifts need never be repayed. There is no connection whatsoever between the amount of money a country receives as a gift and the scheduling of loan repayments. If you take out a loan of 10 million dollars, the amount to be repaid is the same whether you receive no gifts, a million dollars worth of gifts, or 10 million dollars worth of gifts. There is quite literally no connection between the two figures. They are two entirely separate transactions.

This is why the ratio of "loan repayment to gifts received" is an absolutely meaningless figure -- there is no cause and effect at work here. That ratio quite literally has no more significance than the ratio between per capita gasoline consumption and the number of gallons of ice cream produced annually.

The best way would be to forget about buying off public opinon with "aid"...

Stop giving them gifts? Fine by me.

... and forget the debts the starving people, who never saw any of the "loan" in the first place have to pay.

First of all, despite your insistence to the countrary, not every dollar of those loans goes straight into the pockets of corrupt government officials. Irrigation projects are completed (sometimes), dams, roads, hydro plants, desalinization plants, schools and hospitals are completed (sometimes). These projects benefit the general populace of developing nations, and cannot be undertaken without foreign loans and gifts.

Secondly, not all loans are repaid through the use of taxes -- as a matter of fact, a distressingly high percentage of these loans are never repaid through any means. As for the ones which are at least partially repaid, you are of course aware that in many of these countries, the major industries are nationalized (usually resource industries such as oil and minerals) and the government repays the loans through the sales these industries realize, not through grabbing the last sack of rice from every villager.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (04/05/03 12:27 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1430455 - 04/05/03 12:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are you trying to deny that the net effect of giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 off them is a 12 dollar loss?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430490 - 04/05/03 01:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Are you trying to deny that the net effect of giving someone 1 dollar while taking 13 off them is a 12 dollar loss?

Of course if you give someone a dollar and then take 13 off them it is a 12 dollar loss. But that is not what is happening to the countries to which you refer. One more time:

There are two completely separate transactions going on here:

1) They are being given an outright gift (foreign aid). This gift need not be repaid, no matter how large the gift may be. For every dollar they receive, they are asked to repay zero dollars, not thirteen dollars.

2) They take out loans. For every dollar they receive, they are asked to pay back that dollar plus an interest charge.

A country which accepts only foreign aid and never takes out a loan pays back nothing. Zero. Zip. Bupkes. Nada.

A country which accepts foreign aid and also takes out a loan is of course expected to pay back the loan. The amount of foreign aid they receive has no bearing whatsoever on the amount they are expected to repay on the loan -- it is completely separate and utterly irrelevant to the organization which made the loan.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1430502 - 04/05/03 01:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So you think that if a country is starving the best thing to do is take 13 dollars from them, and then send them 1 dollar in "aid".

Are they still going to starve?

Calling it "gifts" or "loans" really is specious. People are starving. You can either buy food for them or pay off loans - most of which the people never saw a penny of.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430543 - 04/05/03 01:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

So you think that if a country is starving the best thing to do is take 13 dollars from them, and then send them 1 dollar in "aid".

Either you honestly can't grasp simple arithmetic (in which case you have earned my pity) or you understand it perfectly well and continue to deliberately misrepresent the situation (in which case you have earned my contempt for your intellectual dishonesty); I can't be certain which is the case and to be frank I no longer care.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: Phred]
    #1430601 - 04/05/03 02:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Do you think that a country that is starving should be paying enormous loans to rich western countries or spending the money on feeding it's own people?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Some are happy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1430760 - 04/05/03 04:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i think they should be paying enormous loans to rich western countries


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Some are happy [Re: ]
    #1430949 - 04/05/03 09:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Fair enough.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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