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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: johnm214]
    #14268374 - 04/10/11 06:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Well at least everybody has the option of waiting in line, unlike the 20% of Americans who are going to wind up costing the taxpayer tons of money when they go bankrupt after surgery one day.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14269090 - 04/10/11 08:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So you allege, but make no argument nor cite any facts in support of your claim. (By the way: "option"?  Its not so much an "option" as "the only possible way to receive treatment under the law for covered conditions")

Why would the bankrupted US residents not have the ability to "wait in line" or otherwise recieve medical care after surgery?


What would cause them to "cost the taxpayer lots of money" after surgery, one day? 

You continue to compare the US and Canadian system but don't seem to be making logical conclusions.  What is dissimilar about a US citizen costing the taxpayers lots of money when compared to Canada?  While its unclear what you're even referring to, its even more difficult to understand how this alleged to reveal a superior aspect of the Candian system: are you alleging the Candian system is not paid for by the taxpayer?  That the patient won't cost " lots of money" but would in the US?  What is the argument here and what basis do you have for it? 

Finally, you have not responded to the distinction I argued exists between the US and Canadian system which renders your conclusion in the previous post invalid.  Why is this?  Are you retracting this claim?  Please back up what you've said and answer my criticism.  If you can't defend your position and your arguments fail- you would think this might be reason to come to different conclusions.

Edited by johnm214 (04/10/11 08:54 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: johnm214]
    #14269119 - 04/10/11 08:44 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> I bet if we just outright killed anyone who was sick, like the Khmer Rouge regime did, we'd save even more!  Wow, the efficiency of communist healthcare : )

:rofl:

... but, but, but.


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: johnm214]
    #14269125 - 04/10/11 08:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
So you allege, but make no argument nor cite any facts in support of your claim.

Why would the bankrupted US residents not have the ability to "wait in line" or otherwise recieve medical care after surgery?



why wait in line if uve already had surgery>?


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14269184 - 04/10/11 08:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't know, what does it matter?

I asked you to defend your claim and to respond to my critiucism of your comparison.

You're the one who brought up that equivocation- I simply asked what for and for you to stop equivocating and address the issue.

Now, for the third time, please address the issue.  You can throw in any equivocations at the end of your response.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: johnm214]
    #14269201 - 04/10/11 08:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

im saying that 40% of americans dont have the option of healthcare and in canada they would so more people would survive even though the waitime is slightly longer


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14269266 - 04/10/11 09:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, so now that that's clear, why don't you get around to demonstrating that your claim is true?  On what grounds do you claim 40% of the people in the US don't have healthcare?  Assuming you will equivocate, again, and revise this to something else, on what grounds do you claim the healthcare this 40% do recieve is less than that available to Canadians?

Secondly, what does 40% of the people not having healthcare have to do with taxpayer expense, which you claimed as an advantage of the Canadian system and which I've challenged yet recieved no response?  On what grounds do you justify this claim?

Finally, since this is now the fourth time I've asked you to reply to criticism of your initial claim, do I take it you withdraw the US-Canada comparison of treatment efficiency?  If not, please stop ignoring the claims you brought up and either back them up in response to my challenges or concede the issue.  Your repeated neglect to address the issue you raised smacks of dishonesty or a sccatershot approach to justifying the position you want to conclude is best- just making all sorts of wild claims with no expectation of validity, hoping some will not be challenged.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: johnm214]
    #14269283 - 04/10/11 09:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

well 120,000,000 don't have health insurance so they will either die prematurely or go bankrupt which the taxpayers would have to pay for. Candians pay less in healthcare sales tax than Americans spend on insurance premiums. Less people die in Canada because of no access to a medical professional.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14269932 - 04/10/11 11:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
well 120,000,000 don't have health insurance




Wait, so now instead of not having healthcare, which is what you claimed previously, now you're saying they don't have health insurance?  Which is it?

I don't have insurance and i certainly do receive healthcare.  Am I an oddity?  Do all my fellow uninsured Americans cast healing spells when they get sick and go see the local witchdoctor in lieu of treatment?  (Actually, my local pharmacy now offers homeopathic remedies, and that stuff is more expensive than the traditional, i.e. functional, medicine.)

Quote:

so they will either die prematurely or go bankrupt which the taxpayers would have to pay for.




What do taxpayers have to pay for when someone goes bankrupt or dies?  The creditors get hosed, not the taxpayers.  You can't discharge public debts, generally.

Again: back up your claims.  Specifically, what is the basis for them?

I don't have insurance.  I'm at risk of an early death or bankruptcy?  News to me.  I certainly do receive healthcare as well.



Quote:

Candians pay less in healthcare sales tax than Americans spend on insurance premiums.




So what?  Haven't we already demonstrated that Canada has a rationed healthcare system where their aren't enough suppliers to meet the demand, and that makes it illegal for those people waiting for the state to allow them treatment to go get a doctor on their own? 

When the state actively makes it illegal to spend money on healthcare... then of course the country will spend less money on healthcare than a country where people are allowed to spend money on whatever they want.

Like I said, in the point you've ignored: I'm sure the US spent much more on electric guitars than did the soviet union states, per capita.  Does this suggest America's electric guitar industry had much to learn from the Soviets in terms of electric guitar research, manufacturing, and distribution?  You're comparing classes which have many variables and arbitrarily ascribing the difference to one particular variable that is convenient for your political goals.  You've not even addressed this problem with your comparison, and here you make it again. 



What exactly don't you understand about this?  If a nation prohibits its citizens from spending money on y, where y is a proportion of and major component of x, then that country's  x will be less than a similarly-situated country's x, per capita, that does not prohibit its citizens from spending money on y.  x=healthcare costs; y=costs associated with treatment for conditions covered under Canada's single-payer plan

Finally, even ignoring this fatal flaw in your comparison, the analysis is faulty on another more basic statistical level: you're not comparing similar treatments so similar expenses should not be presumed to be a function of efficiency attaching to Canadian vs American healthcare systems.  For the comparison to be revelatory of such differences, you'd have to compare the Canadian expenses not to US expenses, but to US expenses for the same items.  For example: I doubt Canada covers Pelosi-style Botox treatment, and yet Pelosi's insurance sure does.  What sense does it make to factor in the costs for Pelosi to paralyze her face every six months when this is not offered by the Canadian healthcare system?  A more common confounding factor might be expensive imaging studies such as CT scans and MRI scans- regularly available at any time in even small rural hospitals for unscheduled, uninsured, cases in the US, but not necessarily so in Canada for a signifigant proportion of the patient base.  Why should we attribute the savings incurred due to simply not providing a particular service to efficiency differences between Canada's single payer system vs the US system?


Quote:

Less people die in Canada because of no access to a medical professional.




Given your other claims, I'm going to need to see a source for this.  What evidence that this is the case do you have?

What class are we actually speaking of here?  Who is dieing because they can't see a medical professional in the USA?  You have a right by law, which is privately actionable, to recieve medical treatment from any emergency medical facility regardless of your ability to pay, which includes an evaluation by a physician, treatment to stabilize your condition, and treatment to save your life.  This is a duty owed to you by law by the emergency medical treatment facility, even if you openly tell them you will not pay your bill or have no money to do so, and is above and beyond any private/public assistance, charitable, programs.

edit:  added shreddin' Lennin

Edited by johnm214 (04/10/11 11:44 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14271022 - 04/11/11 07:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
im saying that 40% of americans dont have the option of healthcare and in canada they would so more people would survive even though the waitime is slightly longer



Lie.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14273030 - 04/11/11 03:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
well 120,000,000 don't have health insurance so they will either die prematurely




so not having insurance leads one to die a premature death?

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14274157 - 04/11/11 06:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

it prevents them from getting treatment that would cause longevity


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14274311 - 04/11/11 07:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
it prevents them from getting treatment that would cause longevity



How is that my concern?


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OfflineCoaster
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14274331 - 04/11/11 07:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Coaster said:
it prevents them from getting treatment that would cause longevity



How is that my concern?



its an unwritten law that americans have to be forced to philanthropy by taxing them and using the revenue to fund aid efforts around the world and healthcare for all


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14274353 - 04/11/11 07:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Coaster said:
it prevents them from getting treatment that would cause longevity



How is that my concern?



its an unwritten law that americans have to be forced to philanthropy by taxing them and using the revenue to fund aid efforts around the world and healthcare for all



That is a libelous lie.  Americans are voluntarily the most generous people on the planet.

If you are forced to give it isn't philanthropy.  It is theft.  What does that have to do with facilitating longevity?  I could greatly increase longevity by vastly increasing the things that are prohibited and requiring certain exercise regimens.  You sure you want to go there, drug warrior?  Not well thought out on your part, is it?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14274419 - 04/11/11 07:31 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> it prevents them from getting treatment that would cause longevity

You are claiming that it is illegal to go to a doctor unless you have health insurance?

> its an unwritten law that americans have to be forced to philanthropy by taxing them and using the revenue to fund aid efforts around the world and healthcare for all

Bill Gates would beg to differ.  He has given hundreds of millions of dollars towards healthcare for the poor without the government forcing him.

I have an idea... why don't you buy my healthcare for me.  I could use the helping hand, and since you are all about giving, I'm sure you wouldn't mind sending some of your money my way.  If you don't have any money, I'm sure Zappa can find something for you to do... wash his dishes or something... I'm pretty cheap and won't ask for much from your labor.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14275263 - 04/11/11 10:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

delete this post.

Edited by communeart (04/11/11 10:17 PM)

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Why Do All Leaders Of NATO Always React The Same Way To Certain Nations? [Re: Coaster]
    #14275273 - 04/11/11 10:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

For Instance Bush:Obama Tony Blair:David Cameron
Obama won the nobel peace prize, why is he acting like Bush or even Mccain?



It was the reason i posted the other topic. The reaction of the west to lybia is the same as to any nation in a civil war. Saddam hussein did not fry babies on the top of a floor, but he or the iraqian leadership did kill around 100 000 iranians with gas. From where i am in canada, i would argue that part of the pro-legalization agenda is twarted by the americans.

I am very certain that marijuana can be legalized and could be legalized exactly in canada, the problem is that the federation is too big and there is trouble with right-wing religious group in more rural areas, just like everywhere. Canada is truly more to left and liberal, but there remains a strong religious electorate for the right wing government we have here. and if i was not whining about it, i would be talking about the liberals in power. what really frustrates me in my opinion, is that i believe liberals in america think we have more democracy because there is around 4-5 political parties with the lowest being 5%. We do not have a 3 party system in canada, because they keep bullying the people into fighting this other party that is dangerous

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