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OrgoneConclusion
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'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book
#14265238 - 04/10/11 01:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yay! Another collection or paranormal anecdotes and more attacks on Randi by a British Journalist. With lots of hand-wringing, author McLuhan covers almost all of the standard "why psychics fail the Randi Test" litany - and, of course, covers the alleged world-wide scientific conspiracy against psi-research. (see my other thread). Sound all too familiar?
Regardless of your view point let's read the book's description:
James 'The Amazing' Randi is a stage magician who says he has a million dollars for anyone who can convince him they have psychic powers. No one has even come close to winning, proof, say sceptical scientists, that there is no such thing as 'the paranormal'. But are they right?
This 'grounded' and well-versed investigative journalist, doesn't even understand the concept of proof and starts right off with a basic strawman argument.
And, like all pro paranormal books, is chock to the brim with anecdotes, which he quaintly and erroneously labels as 'data'.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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i like how he turns it around and calls Randi the snake oil salesman
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: Freedom]
#14266873 - 04/10/11 12:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Also laughable, the author says he wrote this book to counter all of the skeptical books on the shelves.
And yet believer books outnumber skeptical books over 30 to 1.
What makes me laugh is only one positive controlled example of psi is needed, not more books explaining why they keep failing and blaming skeptics for their failure. (S-Rays?)
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falcon



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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: Freedom]
#14267358 - 04/10/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Freedom
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: falcon]
#14267673 - 04/10/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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omg they are selling snake ol to aged mice
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Simms
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Also laughable, the author says he wrote this book to counter all of the skeptical books on the shelves.
And yet believer books outnumber skeptical books over 30 to 1.
What makes me laugh is only one positive controlled example of psi is needed, not more books explaining why they keep failing and blaming skeptics for their failure. (S-Rays?)
While I again, agree with you:
If believer books would not outnumber skeptical books, there wouldn't be any skeptical books -- a paradox 
(0 is still a number, so if there weren't any skeptical books, the believer books would still outnumber skeptical books)
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Edited by Simms (04/10/11 03:58 PM)
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Shroomerette
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: Simms]
#14267793 - 04/10/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simms said: If believer books would not outnumber skeptical books, there wouldn't be any skeptical books -- a paradox 
what? I don't get it.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Yay! Another collection or paranormal anecdotes and more attacks on Randi by a British Journalist. With lots of hand-wringing, author McLuhan covers almost all of the standard "why psychics fail the Randi Test" litany - and, of course, covers the alleged world-wide scientific conspiracy against psi-research. (see my other thread). Sound all too familiar?
Regardless of your view point let's read the book's description:
James 'The Amazing' Randi is a stage magician who says he has a million dollars for anyone who can convince him they have psychic powers. No one has even come close to winning, proof, say sceptical scientists, that there is no such thing as 'the paranormal'. But are they right?
This 'grounded' and well-versed investigative journalist, doesn't even understand the concept of proof and starts right off with a basic strawman argument.
And, like all pro paranormal books, is chock to the brim with anecdotes, which he quaintly and erroneously labels as 'data'.

How does someone go about attacking James Randi??? His parameters (is that the right word?) for providing evidence are simple and clear cut. And from what I heard him say, which is how I am, he doesn't believe or not believe, that evidence will decide that for him, he just hasn't had any yet. Real snake oil sales man...
I don't know if this classifies as what James Randi look's for, but I have sat with people who can do things like this. Only way I figured they could be bullshitting me is if they had some sort of unheard of thermodynamic implants in the palm of their hand or they had an uncanny ability of heating their hands up to oven temperatures simply by moving their hands in a goofy manner or were using some sort of heat reflector, which would have taken an extraordinary amount of work to set up.. but when I get into that, I start to sound as stupid as the people who try to cover their asses. Occam's Razor... I just think the majority of people are deluded, or charlatans looking for some sort of recognition. And the people who can do stuff, are in a place that none of what Randi has to offer or is trying to prove to the world matters to them anyway. And oh boy, do you really feel good after getting this... Never had towels though, that would have been neat. 
If anyone can prove to me that this is fake, or what I experienced was fake or can provide me with a resource that shows how it is done, I'm all ears and open to it.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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yeah


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Let's just pretend this didn't happen http://www.naturalnews.com/025627.html
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: yeah]
#14269171 - 04/10/11 08:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I do not know the backstory to that, but seriously, you are backing homeopathy? Diploid and mywself have repeatedly debunked that here USING THE HOEMPATH's OWN DESCRIPTION OF THE MECHANISM. Homeopathy is such a fail that a test is not really necessary- a thought experiment is sufficient, yet LARGE-SCALE tests have been done with the expected results - nothing to differentiate it from placebo.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#14269187 - 04/10/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
And the people who can do stuff, are in a place that none of what Randi has to offer or is trying to prove to the world matters to them anyway.
I know. I prefer to do my supernatural feats in front of 5 or 6 people in my home that pay me $20 apiece instead. It is ont only more lucrative, but more spiritual as well.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: Raven Gnosis]
#14269476 - 04/10/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
How does someone go about attacking James Randi??? His parameters (is that the right word?) for providing evidence are simple and clear cut. And from what I heard him say, which is how I am, he doesn't believe or not believe, that evidence will decide that for him, he just hasn't had any yet. Real snake oil sales man...
Generally they attack him or his message by the same tactics you see mystic/spirual people use in this forum: straw man attacks primarily, appeals to incredulity, claims of scientific conspiracies (either intentional or incidental through reduced funding), or antecdotal reports.
Since the audience that wants to believe in the mystical things has a great tendancy to confirm their notions, this bias is easy to exploit by misrepresenting his claim and then arguing against that.
An example is the summary of the book Orgone posted: No one has even come close to winning, proof, say sceptical scientists, that there is no such thing as 'the paranormal'. But are they right a) this is obviously fallacious- that nobody has come close to winning does not prove that nobody could win b) Randi doesn't claim this- they are making a strawman argument c) even if Randi did say this it wouldn't matter- that someone is wrong doesn't mean another with a contrary viewpoint is thereby correct simply because they have a contrary position to the incorrect one (if Randi were wrong, this fact wouldn't neccesarily be evidence of some paranormal phenomena, it would just be evidence that he's wrong)
That's a typical example of the nonsense used. Rarley do I hear legitimate arguments being used. The consumers of such stuff generally seem surprisingly ignorant- probably just never encountered any decent discussion of logic and lack the capacity to figure it out for themselves.
Quote:
I don't know if this classifies as what James Randi look's for, but I have sat with people who can do things like this. Only way I figured they could be bullshitting me is if they had some sort of unheard of thermodynamic implants in the palm of their hand or they had an uncanny ability of heating their hands up to oven temperatures simply by moving their hands in a goofy manner or were using some sort of heat reflector, which would have taken an extraordinary amount of work to set up.. but when I get into that, I start to sound as stupid as the people who try to cover their asses. Occam's Razor... I just think the majority of people are deluded, or charlatans looking for some sort of recognition. And the people who can do stuff, are in a place that none of what Randi has to offer or is trying to prove to the world matters to them anyway. And oh boy, do you really feel good after getting this... Never had towels though, that would have been neat. 
If anyone can prove to me that this is fake, or what I experienced was fake or can provide me with a resource that shows how it is done, I'm all ears and open to it.
Well, first: someone touching you who cares for you is beneficial. Humans are social animals, and even being around someone, let alone touch, has psychological benefits.
Additionally, the placebo effect is quite powerful (confirmation bias) when there can be no doubt that you've recieved the treatment- i.e. when you actually are touched by warm hands. This is one difficulty with surgical treatment investigation, for example: a control that wasn't operated on will not have as great a placebo effect as a control that was operated on and has an incision. For this reason, generally the new surgical procedure is compared to an old one, especially when the factors to be measured might have obvious psychological components (i.e. pain, recovery time, self reported factors).
As for the heat itself, I imagine its just friction and flexing muscles. Someone who practics that probably has strong hands with good muscles to flex, and the friction of rubbing them also helps.
A similar story is the buddhist monks who meditate and heat wet towles to dryness in cold environments- the towles areplaced upon the monks' bare bodies. A mystical-inclined person posted here claiming it evedince of some supernatural mystical power, of course, documented in the prestigious Youtube Journal, but upon investigation I found the actual journal article describing the research, and it was confirmed that the monks' cardiopulmonary effort was correlated with the skin temperature increase which also correlated with towel drying. Basically- the heart beat increases and whatnot were highly suggestive, but there's no other way for the oxygen that was consumed above baseline to be used except through skeletal muscle use: the monks' where simply tensing their muscles to generate the heat- just like shivering and involuntary tensing in cold conditions helps maintain body temperature.
I suspect its the same thing. As for positive effects, I'm guessing their really are some, but would imagine its no better than that recieved from an actor who warms their hands and tells you he's a special super-massage person from some exotic land (cuz only people far away from your native country know of these special powers.)
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
And the people who can do stuff, are in a place that none of what Randi has to offer or is trying to prove to the world matters to them anyway.
I know. I prefer to do my supernatural feats in front of 5 or 6 people in my home that pay me $20 apiece instead. It is ont only more lucrative, but more spiritual as well.
That's not even close to how it went down, there was no claiming to supernatural abilities and no money exchange. But, I catch your drift.
And thanks for explanations Johnm214, very insightful.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: I do not know the backstory to that, but seriously, you are backing homeopathy? Diploid and mywself have repeatedly debunked that here USING THE HOEMPATH's OWN DESCRIPTION OF THE MECHANISM. Homeopathy is such a fail that a test is not really necessary- a thought experiment is sufficient, yet LARGE-SCALE tests have been done with the expected results - nothing to differentiate it from placebo.
Homeopathy is pretty much at odds with so much science that I'm comfortable sayings its absolutely disproven simply by the knowledge we have of chemical and biological systems. Those agents diluted to the order of less than a few atoms per dose are simply not having any effect.
As for the backstory, someone posted on that site a response that was alleged to be from Randi through this intermediary. I tend to think it is, since it uses the word "canard" which I've heard Randi use, and is rather distinctive phrasing.
Note that the site is written by a natural foods proponent who claims to believe in homeopathy. It is simply impossible for someone to have even a first-semester understanding of chemistry and biology and to think homeopathy might work by any known means, and not be a fraud. Homeopathy working would essentially destroy the entire history of chemistry knowledge. ESP could always work through some weird brain antenna or something, homeopathy is lightyears beyond the stupidity frontier established by the usual suspects in debunked claims.
NOTE: Account split into parts as posted on nutter site comments:
- 1. Mr. Logan writes: ".James Randi who heads what he calls The James Randi Educational Foundation." No, Mr. Logan, I do not choose to refer to this Foundation [JREF] in that fashion. It is a fully established 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization established by US federal law, not a whim of my imagination. I defer to Mr. Vithoulkas in regard to whims and fancies.
- 2. Mr. Logan writes: "Randi has been involved in a few attempts at debunking homeopathy over the years." Not quite. I do not set out to "debunk" any claims; I examine them. The fact that such investigations frequently result in their being debunked, is a peripheral result. I'll add that none of my examinations of paranormal, occult, supernatural, or quack claims resulted in validation of those claims.
- 3. Mr. Logan writes: "One of these failed experiments, involving James Randi, was broadcast on BBC television in 2003." Correct. The conclusion arrived at by those who supervised and implemented that definitive test of homeopathy - the Royal Society - was that expected random results were shown. I - purposely and by design - was not involved in those tests. I trusted the Royal Society, working closely with the UK homeopaths, to conduct proper, strict, fair, tests, and I agreed to stand by the results - which could have meant compulsory forfeit of the million-dollar prize. My expectation in this test - as with all others I have examined or conducted of homeopathy - was met.
- 4. "It was one of the main impetuses behind Vithoulkas' decision to devote his 40 years of Homeopathic experience to putting the record straight." This implies that the record of the BBC/Royal Society experiment was flawed. It most certainly was not.
- 5. Mr. Logan: "Randi then delayed the start of the experiment owing to health problems and lack of sufficient funding." No, I was unable to prevent a delay; that was involuntary. I suffered a near-fatal cardiac arrest and was rushed into surgery to undergo a double cardiac bypass which was complicated by other serious problems. I barely survived, and as a result of the heavy sedation and extensive use of anesthetics to which I was subjected, I still have neurological problems. As for the lack of "funding," that was the sole responsibility of Vithoulkas, not of myself nor of the JREF. The reference implies that I lacked the funds to proceed. And, at no time were my health problems not specified; they were clearly and frequently stated. Vithoulkas clearly knew this.[Unknown]
- 6. Mr. Logan: "Vithoulkas claims that Randi knew of theses impending changes and was looking for a way of getting out of the challenge." A knowing canard by Vithoulkas. Consider: he knew of my medical situation, he chose to ignore it, and tried to turn it into a scheme that I had invented out of fear that his genius would establish the validity of homeopathy. I have no fear of that possibility, I assure you.
- 7. "This new turn of events understandably infuriated Vithoulkas after his 5 years of toil." Let's get this in focus: Vithoulkas is infuriated? In what he calls my "reversal," which was directly brought about by his dragged-out and dreary stalling, I told him that he was required to make formal application for the JREF prize - as all persons are required to do - and he chose to ignore that direct requirement, obviously feeling that he was above such a demand. He has not made application to this day, nor will he do it, because of his highly-developed ego. The homeopaths de facto withdrew from the experiment by default, due to the recalcitrance of Vithoulkas, not of James Randi.
- 8. Finally, Mr. Logan wrote: "The experiment may still go ahead with the participation of skeptics Alec Gindis and Hrasko Gabor who were originally representing Randi." They still do, though I am leaving all the exchanges with them until an agreement, protocol, and compliance with the JREF requirements are met by Vithoulkas, after which the prize will become available to Vithoulkas. I simply don't have the time nor the energy to waste on such a thankless project.
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g00ru
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: johnm214]
#14270978 - 04/11/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nobody's gonna accept this, but the 'Randi's Prize' crap is just in really poor taste and there's no reason at all for any spiritually advanced being to play along with it. The money is a lame incentive.
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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Simms
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: g00ru]
#14271046 - 04/11/11 08:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What if Randis debunkings are faked and those people in the shows really don't exist or just acted like they were there trying to claim the prize? The show could just be some publicity, crave for attention, etc. Some people make money out of this.
And if they were true people with true believeings, it could also be a camera trick (since I haven't seen a single debunking with my own eyes), montage or just a trick. Remember, Randy the Amazing is an illusionist himself.
And, most importantly: Has anyone actualy seen the Randi Million? Does it exist or is the whole shows just a lie?
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Edited by Simms (04/11/11 08:18 AM)
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g00ru
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: Simms]
#14271066 - 04/11/11 08:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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all valid possibilities
-------------------- check out my music! drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: g00ru] 1
#14271227 - 04/11/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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All ignorant ramblings.
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Simms
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Enlighten me!
Otherwise I will turn into a believer and start taking peoples money, against what you so desperately try to fight.
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NetDiver
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Re: 'Randi's Prize' - new pro paranormal book [Re: g00ru]
#14271568 - 04/11/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said: Nobody's gonna accept this, but the 'Randi's Prize' crap is just in really poor taste and there's no reason at all for any spiritually advanced being to play along with it. The money is a lame incentive.
How about all the food you could buy starving people with a million dollars? Or all the schools you could build? Or all the medical research you could fund? You'd think the ability to make a very real impact on some of the world's suffering would be a prime incentive for any "spiritually advanced being."
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