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OfflineHumility
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There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering * 1
    #14263936 - 04/09/11 05:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I truly believe this at this point.  I'm done with the pursuit, it's truly fruitless.

I'm grateful.


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Offlineskatealex2
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14263971 - 04/09/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Spiritual World has suffering too :crazy:


Edited by skatealex2 (04/09/11 06:37 PM)


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility] * 2
    #14264264 - 04/09/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Counter-examples:

1) taking a satisfying dump
2) a fritatta that comes out perfect
3) that first gulp of a cold beer after a long day
4) fucking your significant other until she's just a sweaty mess of joy

If you're finding fault with that kind of stuff, well...


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14264267 - 04/09/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
I truly believe this at this point.  I'm done with the pursuit, it's truly fruitless.

I'm grateful.




If it was all pleasure, we wouldn't have anything to compare it to, so we wouldn't know we were experiencing pleasure.

Gotta have pain in order to have pleasure.


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: tyler_0_durden] * 2
    #14264747 - 04/09/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you are done seeking pleasure because you experience pain? Just kill yourself and end all your highs and lows.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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OfflineHumility
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: SlashOZ] * 1
    #14265143 - 04/10/11 12:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
So you are done seeking pleasure because you experience pain? Just kill yourself and end all your highs and lows.





I don't quite know what I'm doing, but I certainly can't keep chasing after sensual pleasures.  They always result in suffering; even after you've attained them!

There's got to be something else.


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OfflineUnison
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14265218 - 04/10/11 01:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You're not supposed to experience only pleasure. Suffering is a part of the ride.

And do not use that as a way to be content with suffering. You're not supposed to want or be content with suffering. Suffering is a part of being alive.

Surrounding yourself in pleasure/love is like surrounding yourself in the color blue.

Life is living itself. There's no you, just life living itself. That's what this is. And suffering is a part of it. Suffering is not bad, it's just something you're not supposed to like.


Edited by Unison (04/10/11 01:03 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14265241 - 04/10/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There's got to be something else.




B-E-C-A-U-S-E?


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OfflineUnison
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14265402 - 04/10/11 02:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
B-E-C-A-U-S-E?



Question of the day.


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OfflineUnison
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Unison]
    #14265415 - 04/10/11 02:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for being so real, OC.


Edited by Unison (04/10/11 02:31 AM)


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InvisibleTropism
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14266370 - 04/10/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
So you are done seeking pleasure because you experience pain? Just kill yourself and end all your highs and lows.





I don't quite know what I'm doing, but I certainly can't keep chasing after sensual pleasures.  They always result in suffering; even after you've attained them!

There's got to be something else.




There is something else, and that something else is suffering.
We've made all of our comforts and easily obtained pleasures, the universe didn't simply plop these things in our laps nor will it yours.
If you aren't going to work for your own gratification I hope you don't expect someone else to.


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OfflineSimms
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Tropism]
    #14267736 - 04/10/11 04:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Are we talking about suffering to the one who got happiness, or suffering in general, like: You take a dump and feel good, but someone else suffocates?

But when you take a dump, then again you need to suffer first in order to feel you need to take a dump to even get that happy relevation.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14268255 - 04/10/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Love is pain, it's true. But I think there are better and worse ways for suffering to manifest...however, if you are truly done with it that's beautiful and commendable.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Offlineriaahacker
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14269648 - 04/10/11 10:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

1) Implant electrode into NAc.
2) Stimulate neurons.
3) Repeat until death occurs.

Might not be what most people call a "fulfilling" life, but one does not need anything to compare pleasure to in order to feel it.


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OfflineJoolz
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: riaahacker]
    #14269989 - 04/10/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Could you understand joy and pleasure if you didn't have suffering or pain?


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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.


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Offlineriaahacker
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Joolz]
    #14270271 - 04/11/11 12:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Experience and understanding seem to me like two different things. Someone who comes in contact with painful stimuli will for the most part instinctively withdrawal from whatever caused it. The experiences seems on some level hardwired to produce certain responses without any conscious thought.


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OfflineJoolz
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: riaahacker]
    #14270283 - 04/11/11 12:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

riaahacker said:
Experience and understanding seem to me like two different things. Someone who comes in contact with painful stimuli will for the most part instinctively withdrawal from whatever caused it. The experiences seems on some level hardwired to produce certain responses without any conscious thought.




That's called instincts and years and years of evolution imo.


--------------------
Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Joolz]
    #14270296 - 04/11/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineGoose
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: andrewss]
    #14270329 - 04/11/11 12:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there is an end to suffering. in life


--------------------
"i will study and prepare myself so that when my opportunity comes i will be ready" Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Goose]
    #14270383 - 04/11/11 01:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To the OP: Honestly...what'd you expect? No suffering? Its tangibly impossible.


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck


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OfflineCrashy
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14270910 - 04/11/11 07:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

desires fulfilled breed more desires.


the real funny thing about being a part of this play of life is that we automatically create our own problems by deluding ourselves into picking one polar end of something.
we cannot escape the counter action from the balance of life.

desire pleasure = fear pain

raise expectations = harder fall

select friends = excluded and minimized others




the thing is, there is no such thing as pleasure or pain as two different things. They are one movement like life and death. To assume that they are two separate dual notions is to really be taken on a ride by them.

remember that whatever dual end of a notion you act on, know that you have given life not only to the polar opposite of said notion but to both notions as being two separate things at all. Life seems to always be in balance even when we dont acknowledge it.
we give for everything we get... but is there even a problem in that?


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OfflineHumility
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Crashy]
    #14270961 - 04/11/11 07:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

the thing is, there is no such thing as pleasure or pain as two different things. They are one movement like life and death. To assume that they are two separate dual notions is to really be taken on a ride by them.




This is what I'm getting at.

Pursuing pleasure here is like trying to perpetually enjoy yourself on heroin.  It's simply impossible given the cause-effect nature of the situation.  Suffering inextricably accompanies pleasure.

Stillness is likely preferable.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14270976 - 04/11/11 07:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sometimes they seriously are the same thing, like being horny and yearning to have sex, that feels good and bad at the same time.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14271788 - 04/11/11 11:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
Quote:

the thing is, there is no such thing as pleasure or pain as two different things. They are one movement like life and death. To assume that they are two separate dual notions is to really be taken on a ride by them.




This is what I'm getting at.

Pursuing pleasure here is like trying to perpetually enjoy yourself on heroin.  It's simply impossible given the cause-effect nature of the situation.  Suffering inextricably accompanies pleasure.

Stillness is likely preferable.




Stillness is only going to come with death. Pull the trigger man.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14271986 - 04/11/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the death of the mind...possible while the body lives on


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: g00ru]
    #14272083 - 04/11/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
the death of the mind...possible while the body lives on



Guruu, is their a point to have a living body that has no living mind?

OP, I gather that the you want to live a life without suffering or happiness which I think makes no sense. I would also argue that suffering is not the opposite of happiness and that you have probably never truly suffered. The best thing in life is that it isn't all the same, that we have our highs and lows. That is why I can't grasp a christian heaven of total happiness. How can you be happy for eternity without suffering mixed in to remind you what happiness really is?

Take for example learning to snowboard. You don't know how awesome it is to take a powder run without all those times falling on your butt when you were learning.

So, as far as I am concerned if you want to live a life without 'suffering' you don't really understand what life is. Now, if you truly want to end your 'suffering' the only real option is to end your ability to experience or sense anything, aka death. My solution and advice to the OP is to get a clue and enjoy life as it is or just end it with a nice metal slug to the dome.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14273622 - 04/11/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
That is why I can't grasp a christian heaven of total happiness. How can you be happy for eternity without suffering mixed in to remind you what happiness really is?




I'm not saying this is any element of christian doctrine outside of my mind, but I'd imagine that heaven's eternal happiness comes with change in the perception of time and reality. I'd find angels and clouds difficult to accept, but being in the presence of all my dead loved ones for eternity without thought is pretty heavenly to think of.  Eternity without thought or boredom, or awareness of the passage of time.

Quote:

Humility said:
Pursuing pleasure here is like trying to perpetually enjoy yourself on heroin.  It's simply impossible given the cause-effect nature of the situation.
...
Stillness is likely preferable.




Counter-example:

I'm never going to get tired of sunsets. I've seen countless sunsets, I will see many more (God willing), they are not getting less pleasurable. There's no suffering in appreciating a sunset, not by your analogy.

You can say "oh, but it's tempered with the knowledge you'll die some day and one of these could be your last sunset." That just makes the sunsets more precious and enjoyable to me.

To find suffering in such beauty, you have to really reach for it.

You sound like you're trying to reach for it in support of some kind of buddhist no-mind zen thing. Go for it, I'll be on the porch.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14275361 - 04/11/11 10:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

guruu said:
the death of the mind...possible while the body lives on



Guruu, is their a point to have a living body that has no living mind?





Oh yes.  You don't have to 100% destroy the mind but thoughts can be greatly reduced and it will feel like you are dying to something. And honestly, it's the way to live, so much more calm and blissful, so much easier to realize goals.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineHumility
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: g00ru]
    #14276969 - 04/12/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Orgo - I probably wasn't as clear as I ought to have been.

There is nothing wrong with basking in pleasure or appreciating things; what becomes troublesome however is desire.  Any desire at all.  Even the desire to bask in pleasure or appreciate things leads to suffering.

Passively accepting pleasure is fine; actively seeking it leads to heartache.  The same comes with ills.  Ills are far more easy to accept  when you aren't trying to avoid them, which ultimately cannot be done anyway.


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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: g00ru]
    #14277204 - 04/12/11 10:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

guruu said:
the death of the mind...possible while the body lives on



Guruu, is their a point to have a living body that has no living mind?





Oh yes.  You don't have to 100% destroy the mind but thoughts can be greatly reduced and it will feel like you are dying to something. And honestly, it's the way to live, so much more calm and blissful, so much easier to realize goals.




This reminds me somewhat of the stoic position on life, except the reducing your thoughts. The stoics were really focused on trying to maintain an inner calm in a world of craziness. In fact, OP, I suggest you read some Marcus Aurelius Meditations. Good stuff about dealing with suffering and pain in life and how to overcome it.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: There is no pleasure of this material world that doesn't come with more suffering [Re: Humility]
    #14278756 - 04/12/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
There is nothing wrong with basking in pleasure or appreciating things; what becomes troublesome however is desire.  Any desire at all.  Even the desire to bask in pleasure or appreciate things leads to suffering.

Passively accepting pleasure is fine; actively seeking it leads to heartache.  The same comes with ills.  Ills are far more easy to accept  when you aren't trying to avoid them, which ultimately cannot be done anyway.




I'm still not clear, I'm afraid.

Under this clarified view point then, why bother doing anything at all?

Why not sit there and starve to death? Why seek relief from food?

Or maybe you're saying seek food, but don't do it because it's going to feel good, which I don't believe is possible.

I can see "avoid any desires but what is strictly necessary," as a means of simplifying ones life and maybe attaining some kind of self-less existence, but I still can't see how having desires and fulfilling them really leads to suffering in a real way.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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