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OfflineFreedom
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Relationship between matter and consciousness
    #14263593 - 04/09/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Premise: Matter is necessary for consciousness. 



Three possibilities for how consciousness interacts with matter:

1. Matter produces consciousness by itself.

If so, what is the recipe for consciousness? What is the mechanism by which matter produces consciousness? Is it the dancing ions flowing in and out of brain cells?

2. Matter produces consciousness in concert with something(s) else.

What is this mysterious 'something(s) else'?

3. Matter does not produce consciousness but can greatly modify our experience of it.

Oh I get it, our souls are being beamed into our brains which act as antenna and translators imaginators visualizers inspiration generators on and on and  onoters

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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14263641 - 04/09/11 04:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Premise: Matter is necessary for consciousness. 
I like the premise, in order for consciousness to become manifest there must be a vehicle.

1. Ever heard of biocentrisim? in that theory consciousness makes matter
I personally belive that matter is just a dense expression of manifestation from a boundless, infinite, formless, 'root' or causeless cause. Gross matter is just the flowering of the universe and all of existence, the universe begins(seed), grows(formation of atoms, elements, planets, life, evolution) then reaches its greatest goal of flowering(spirit and matter in perfect unity in the form of self awareness), then goes back towards that formless, subjective root from where it came, only to die, and be reborn again, and on it goes forever. Thats what I think

2. Consciousness isa very broad term, thought, awareness, life force...
so there is more than just matter and consciousness
3. Matter does not produce consciousness but can greatly modify our experience of it.
Agree.

Edited by Greenvalley (04/09/11 04:17 PM)

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14263761 - 04/09/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Which came first,; space-time, energy, matter or consciousness ?

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #14264002 - 04/09/11 06:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

4. Matter only leases consciousness with a buy option at the expiration date.


--------------------

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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #14264253 - 04/09/11 08:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
Which came first,; space-time, energy, matter or consciousness ?




^^Crucial question that needs to be answered correctly if we want to figure this out.

I don't know how energy, space-time, or matter could exist before each other. Conservation of energy doesn't make sense if energy came first. Then again, how could consciousness come first? That doesn't make sense to me either.

Personally, I feel like everything is just energy that feeds my consciousness into thinking that there's a solidified world of matter around me.


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"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #14272094 - 04/11/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Another really good question is, Have space and time always been coalescent, allowing for volume and duration to exist ?, and can they ever be separated ? Matter and energy are interchangeable, but cannot exist without space and time. Consciousness it is argued arises from the material brain, but the quality of being consciousness is something unlike anything else in known existence, at least from the perspective of the one who is conscious.

I would suggest time is a prerequisite for consciousness, and because time is space-time, space is also necessary. What do you think ?

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Greenvalley]
    #14272276 - 04/11/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Greenvalley said:
Premise: Matter is necessary for consciousness. 
I like the premise, in order for consciousness to become manifest there must be a vehicle.

1. Ever heard of biocentrisim? in that theory consciousness makes matter
I personally belive that matter is just a dense expression of manifestation from a boundless, infinite, formless, 'root' or causeless cause. Gross matter is just the flowering of the universe and all of existence, the universe begins(seed), grows(formation of atoms, elements, planets, life, evolution) then reaches its greatest goal of flowering(spirit and matter in perfect unity in the form of self awareness), then goes back towards that formless, subjective root from where it came, only to die, and be reborn again, and on it goes forever. Thats what I think





The pattern of causation appears to be directional. fMRI is now capable of detecting your brain's decision before 'you' are. That is some damn incriminating evidence, but even without it we can see the broad pattern. Injuries to the head cause changes to the mind yet I can't even grow one extra head no matter how hard I try with my mind. Only in dreams does is my mind able to affect matter.

Quote:


2. Consciousness isa very broad term, thought, awareness, life force...
so there is more than just matter and consciousness







From a purely physical/chemical/biological point of view an animal should be fully capable of all natural behavior without any conscious representation of its experience or a representation of its self. This experience of a wonderfully imagined gestalt representation of our senses and of abstract forms like self and of different subcultures.


i've always thought of space and time as qualities of matter and energy. Tightly dependent to the point you could think of it all as one thing.

So then space/time becomes spacetime.
Matter/energy becomes mattergy.
Spacetime/mattergy becomes spactergy.
and spactergy = consciousness.

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14272293 - 04/11/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
4. Matter only leases consciousness with a buy option at the expiration date.





anthropomofo

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14272298 - 04/11/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

...or maybe consciousness is a prism that has the ability to separate spactergy into all it's constituent parts, giving us what we experience as life ?

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Brainstem]
    #14272358 - 04/11/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

that would explain ghosts and shit!

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14272388 - 04/11/11 01:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah maybe, but how do you explain popularity of Justin Bieber ?:crazy:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #14272419 - 04/11/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Only in dreams does is my mind able to affect matter.





Don't forget the Other Forum. They can do most anything over there. Be Leave!


--------------------

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Brainstem]
    #14272425 - 04/11/11 01:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Bieber is sugarcoat for teen love/luck/lust anxiety



=


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14272432 - 04/11/11 01:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Only in dreams does is my mind able to affect matter.





Don't forget the Other Forum. They can do most anything over there. Be Leave!





you must does is misinterpret severely my drug deranged grammer

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14272440 - 04/11/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Be Leave!




:satansmoking:

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Invisiblemushiepussy
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14275747 - 04/11/11 11:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Electricity and organic chemicals is conciousness and matter, their relationship creates sentient beings imo

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OfflineKingkuper
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Brainstem]
    #14275750 - 04/11/11 11:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
Which came first,; space-time, energy, matter or consciousness ?




how about space-time + energy + matter + consciousness = life and we drop the whole debate?

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14275765 - 04/11/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Premise: Matter is necessary for consciousness




please distinguish the two terms.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Freedom]
    #14276002 - 04/12/11 12:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Greenvalley said:
Premise: Matter is necessary for consciousness. 
I like the premise, in order for consciousness to become manifest there must be a vehicle.

1. Ever heard of biocentrisim? in that theory consciousness makes matter
I personally belive that matter is just a dense expression of manifestation from a boundless, infinite, formless, 'root' or causeless cause. Gross matter is just the flowering of the universe and all of existence, the universe begins(seed), grows(formation of atoms, elements, planets, life, evolution) then reaches its greatest goal of flowering(spirit and matter in perfect unity in the form of self awareness), then goes back towards that formless, subjective root from where it came, only to die, and be reborn again, and on it goes forever. Thats what I think





The pattern of causation appears to be directional. fMRI is now capable of detecting your brain's decision before 'you' are. That is some damn incriminating evidence, but even without it we can see the broad pattern. Injuries to the head cause changes to the mind yet I can't even grow one extra head no matter how hard I try with my mind. Only in dreams does is my mind able to affect matter.

Quote:


2. Consciousness isa very broad term, thought, awareness, life force...
so there is more than just matter and consciousness







From a purely physical/chemical/biological point of view an animal should be fully capable of all natural behavior without any conscious representation of its experience or a representation of its self. This experience of a wonderfully imagined gestalt representation of our senses and of abstract forms like self and of different subcultures.


i've always thought of space and time as qualities of matter and energy. Tightly dependent to the point you could think of it all as one thing.

So then space/time becomes spacetime.
Matter/energy becomes mattergy.
Spacetime/mattergy becomes spactergy.
and spactergy = consciousness.




those fmri studies are severely flawed, methodologically and philosophically.

Also, your combination of spacetime/matterenergy makes inadequite sense - spacetime are united through mathematical laws that can be rigorously tested, as with matter energy. However consciousness cannot be rigorously tested because it cannot be observed or measured directly.

The only way to observe or measure it is to presume a loose, unprecise relationship between consciousness and brain function, and then correlate behaviors to brain functions that are associated to consciousness using more unprecise psychological theories that themselves lack precisely identifiable variables without assumption of the original premise that consciousness IS brain function.

All we can measure are physical things, we cant measure consciousness.

Some might say that consciousness is like quanta, which are implied by our experiments but not observed 'directly' (who can 'see' a quark?). But a crucial difference is that quanta are defined by their effect on experimental observation, but consciousness precedes all experimental observation - it exists in an identifiable form [for the introspective philosopher] before any objective study is performed or even concieved of. Furthermore, the quality of a colour like red can never be determined beyond its effects on behavior, and the effect on behavior might be the same in two people even if the experienced quality is different. People may be able to describe different experienced qualities in the same way because descriptions rely on language which relies on associative relationships - and two different experiences can be associated with other concepts and objective phenomenon in the exact same way. This means that there is no way to create a correspondence theory; we lack the ability to link our scientific models of the brain and conscious behavior to the actual phenomenon that is in question.

The crucial point is that consciousness and experience is not the same as behaviors or tendencies to behave (although this is the position of the 20th century behaviorists and indeed any scientist who claims functionalism can be determined through empirical observation).
However, the two are intrinsically linked because we can only ever assume someone else is conscious at all if they behave in a certain way.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Relationship between matter and consciousness [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14276058 - 04/12/11 12:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

hey noteworthy! :wave: good to see u still come back to this place.


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