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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: redgreenvines]
    #14266173 - 04/10/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ya, i get argumentative in a bad way on this forum :blush:

the connection between habits, mind, and physical reality is what i'm going for.  How habits and mind precede physical reality, which is much easier to realize if you've changed many of your habits.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14266612 - 04/10/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And the idea of one preceding the other is the crux of what I keep arguing against. :shrug:


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OfflineGoodTimez101
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Re: true or false [Re: NetDiver]
    #14266632 - 04/10/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, life is all about personal perspective, you're either gonna see the glass half full or half empty , positive thinking can go a long way IMO.

Don't cry when life hands you lemons, make lemonade and sell it lol


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: GoodTimez101]
    #14266917 - 04/10/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

positive thinking can go a long way IMO




That depends. The idea that positive thinking for cancer patients will extend their lives has not been borne out by several large-scale studies.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14266938 - 04/10/11 12:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How is the presentation of logical premises a "bad way"?

How about I wager you $1000. I take a neophyte and teach him piano on the piano. You take a neophyte and te4ach him piano in his head ONLY. Then at the end of an agreed upon time, we shall have them play a simple piece and be judged.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14267166 - 04/10/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

More like you take somebody and teach him to play piano, and i take somebody and tell him to contemplate and visualize the piano for a few days and then teach himself by making stuff up on it.  See who has a cooler style. And no bets, cause i'm not tryin to be an a$$hole about this stuff.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: NetDiver]
    #14267168 - 04/10/11 01:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
And the idea of one preceding the other is the crux of what I keep arguing against. :shrug:




yup, that's seriously the dividing line between a viewpoint like mine and one like yours.  I recognize that and there's no logic i can give you to why you should switch over to the "idealist" P.O.v., but I can tell you that if you make a conscious effort to enter into and stay in the self, or moment, I believe a more consciousness based worldview just arises naturally based on the effects this practice has on your life.  You need to be doing it as much as possible...whenever you find yourself distracted, just returning to your awareness of "i am" and the moment.  And just see how it effects your worldview.  Cause somebody like you who understands the relationship of matter and experience....you have a good mental framework already in place.


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14267200 - 04/10/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And no bets, cause i'm not tryin to be an a$$hole about this stuff.




And there is your lovely 'spiritual' side coming out yet again. :heart:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14267204 - 04/10/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And just see how it effects your worldview.




Will he then start seeing other people with a differing opinion as a$$holes?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (04/10/11 09:05 PM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14267896 - 04/10/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:shrug: any idea you have of what i'm supposed to be like because i tout spiritual perspectives is completely concocted. I do generally try to be a nice person tho. Still, I'm not trying to come of like a holy man, because I'm certainly not the most pious individual out there.  I think that money is a very dangerous thing and that, since its acquisition comes out of a desire for power, it is really brought about by base desires. And I think it's very telling that for every hypothetical situation you devise, there's always a wager or some sort of money involved.  But lets not turn this into a discussion about me, sorry I implied that you were an a$$hole :peace: I would hate to think that through these exchanges I'm leading your farther away from the self as a result of the anger i'm causing, so I'm more than happy to accept your criticism.

In return, however, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that many of your qualms with spirituality, including Yoganada and his disciple, involve the uncovering of a perceived hypocrisy.  This is classic mental conditioning.  You have a model of what a spiritual person is supposed to be like, and you see anything that violates that model as proof of the insubstantial nature of spiritual practice/belief. In reality, out of the 7 billion people or whatever on this planet, there are 7 billion different ways to be spiritual.

Look at a group like Odd Future Wolf Gang Kill Them All.  They're hatred spewing Atheists, and ultimately I think they're doing good things for the world by getting those sentiments out in the open. This is a sick song btw you should totally listen to it:



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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14269271 - 04/10/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

involve the uncovering of a perceived hypocrisy




Perceived hypocrisy? :lol: There is nothing preceived about it. Holy Man A teaches something then does the opposite. No interpretation there.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14269284 - 04/10/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I do generally try to be a nice person tho




What is with the 'generally' part? Either you are or you are not. I guess the very 'clever' way you called me an asshole is so that you can hold onto your false self-image
of holiness or to bypass moderation. Either way your phoniness shines through.

I decline your fake apology. :thumbdown:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14269388 - 04/10/11 09:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

nobodies nice all the time. i was bein sincere although that's impossible to know across this textual divide


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru]
    #14271241 - 04/11/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I feel like I've provided a strong argument against dualism that has been more or less ignored, in favor of a non-answer ("try returning to your awareness," etc) that doesn't really address the points I made.

My viewpoint may be the result of my lower, spiritually un-enlightened perspective, but at least I know how to respond to a debate in a way that respects the other person's intelligence. :shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: true or false [Re: NetDiver]
    #14271431 - 04/11/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Guruu rarely responds to anything written. Everything you write is a platform for him to preach, when he is not name-calling.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14271683 - 04/11/11 11:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

its mainly cause i don't give a fuck. i'll update this post with a cogent response after class :cool:


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: true or false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14271701 - 04/11/11 11:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How is the presentation of logical premises a "bad way"?

How about I wager you $1000. I take a neophyte and teach him piano on the piano. You take a neophyte and te4ach him piano in his head ONLY. Then at the end of an agreed upon time, we shall have them play a simple piece and be judged.




there's no doubt that actually playing lets you learn anything much quicker, but research has shown that you can learn through imagination, but that doesn't mean with everything i suppose


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Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: NetDiver]
    #14271953 - 04/11/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I feel like I've provided a strong argument against dualism that has been more or less ignored, in favor of a non-answer ("try returning to your awareness," etc) that doesn't really address the points I made.

My viewpoint may be the result of my lower, spiritually un-enlightened perspective, but at least I know how to respond to a debate in a way that respects the other person's intelligence. :shrug:




i did respond, and my answer is really the only response possible because unless you have a true experience of the self (known as satori in Zen) you are never going to see how "dualism" is possible (i hate that term though, I think it's misleading).  My philosophy professor is always giving reasons why dualism is impossible, like how can the immaterial interface with the material, etc. etc.  It doesn't matter to me cause I've experienced how staying with the simple fact of being totally puts reality in its proper perspective, its most natural perspective.  For me, there's no argument, i know it's true.  I don't think i'm disrespecting your intelligence, i feel like devolving into a point by point argument that wouldn't lead anywhere would be disrespecting your intelligence. 

Physical reality is like what you see on the computer screen.  The stuff in your mind is the HTML behind it all.  You're much better served going strait to the source and influencing your reality that when then always looking outward like everybody else.


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: true or false [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14275399 - 04/11/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I hope you realize that's not an argument, and I also hope you realize Zen is about as far from a dualistic philosophy as you can get.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: true or false [Re: NetDiver]
    #14275745 - 04/11/11 11:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well, that just goes to show how diverging words can become.  I'd consider myself a dualist as apposed to a materialist, and I know my philosophy is perfectly compatible with Zen, they just use a different language.  Out of curiosity, and so we can continue the conversation, could you please explain to me the difference between Zen philosophy and dualism? I could probably show how they are actually in agreement.

I'm honestly on this board to try to get people to truly look inwards, I'm not interested in satisfying your intellect although I do my best.  A satori experience will convince you of the existence of a soul, i'll tell ya that much.


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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