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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Why aren't DMT trips like dreams
#14260278 - 04/08/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams? I've smoked DMT before and there is a sort of "dreamworld" characteristic to everything but it is much more surreal than any dream I've ever had and still far different. Why is this? Shouldn't a DMT trip be very similar to the dreams we have at night?
Has anyone figured this out? Any theories?
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Ghostwriter

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 4,825
Loc: USA
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Quote:
I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams?
well for starts, that is not a proven fact
Quote:
Has anyone figured this out? Any theories?
thats exactly what the "dmt dream" thing is all about, it is a "theory" not a "fact"
it is a hypothesis from Rick Strassman, the author of DMT: the spirit molecule...
read the book then you will get it
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Lunaria
Stranger
Registered: 03/25/11
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Ghostwriter]
#14260335 - 04/08/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mamdbdylan said:
Quote:
I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams?
well for starts, that is not a proven fact
Quote:
Has anyone figured this out? Any theories?
thats exactly what the "dmt dream" thing is all about, it is a "theory" not a "fact"
it is a hypothesis from Rick Strassman, the author of DMT: the spirit molecule...
read the book then you will get it
^ This. IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.
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Ghostwriter

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 4,825
Loc: USA
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
#14260608 - 04/08/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.
ill have to look into Acetylcholine, never heard of it
but yeah DMT is not the chemical that makes you dream...
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joemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
#14260649 - 04/08/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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If sleep is the cousin of death, DMT is the cousin of dreams. The two mental states have many similarities, the most significant being that they both seem to slip away rather quickly regardless of their intensity. The details become cloudy turning into emotions that soon become vague and that murkiness eventually dissipates into forgetfulness. And then you'll do it again to remember. And when I am in the midst of it, I know every secret of the universe, I become the mind of God and then poof!
The dream is over and the cycle repeats often with unpredictably insane twists and turns. If I wanted to aggravate myself (and endear myself to the shroomy mystics), I'd say that sobriety is the dream and DMT is the reality.
-------------------- Don't PM me with bullshit. I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.
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astronaut
ascetic aesthetic


Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 1,013
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: joemolloy]
#14261344 - 04/08/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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To me, the DMT experience lies within a state of being that cannot be subsumed in an abstract relation to another. To declare one the signifier and the other the signified, is to negate the reality of both through the articulation of one.
That having been said, DMT for me induces a paradoxical state of being that is defined both by radically calm awareness, and a radically intense inner landscape. It is the embodied unity of yogic and tantric potentiality.
--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face: Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!
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Lunaria
Stranger
Registered: 03/25/11
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: astronaut]
#14262153 - 04/09/11 08:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mamdbdylan said:
Quote:
IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.
ill have to look into Acetylcholine, never heard of it
but yeah DMT is not the chemical that makes you dream...
Acetylcholine is the chemical targeted by deliriants and most of the good dream-enhancing drugs. I think the fact that both agonists and antagonists can have such profound effects really goes to show how complex its mechanism is. Deliriants (which I don't ever recommend) inhibit acetylcholine and create trips that are pretty much like dreaming while awake, you get true hallucinations of things that aren't there and you think it's completely real, and the aftereffects of them can cause some very vivid and often frightening dreams. One time after a Benadryl trip I had a dream that I was caught in some kind of mind labyrinth and I had to solve some problem to get out. I started out in a random scenario and when I fixed the problem I woke up, but it turned out to be a false awakening and soon my bedroom morphed into another scenario to fix. This went on for about eight hours of completely real-seeming madness where I was convinced I'd be trapped in my mind forever and got no actual rest. When I did finally wake up my room was warping and bending like an acid trip, I reached over to grab my water bottle but when I tried to drink it nothing happened. Suddenly the visuals went away and I looked over to see that I hadn't actually grabbed the bottle yet - I hallucinated that. Extremely bizzare. On the flip side, cholinergic agonists before bed like galantamine, nicotine patches, etc. create highly detailed dreams often with (at least for me) very epic storylines. I even remember reading a report where someone with a nicotine patch was in a dream where it was raining and they could fully feel the texture of the water hitting their skin.
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Ghostwriter

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 4,825
Loc: USA
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
#14262541 - 04/09/11 10:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Acetylcholine is the chemical targeted by deliriants and most of the good dream-enhancing drugs. I think the fact that both agonists and antagonists can have such profound effects really goes to show how complex its mechanism is. Deliriants (which I don't ever recommend) inhibit acetylcholine and create trips that are pretty much like dreaming while awake, you get true hallucinations of things that aren't there and you think it's completely real, and the aftereffects of them can cause some very vivid and often frightening dreams. One time after a Benadryl trip I had a dream that I was caught in some kind of mind labyrinth and I had to solve some problem to get out. I started out in a random scenario and when I fixed the problem I woke up, but it turned out to be a false awakening and soon my bedroom morphed into another scenario to fix. This went on for about eight hours of completely real-seeming madness where I was convinced I'd be trapped in my mind forever and got no actual rest. When I did finally wake up my room was warping and bending like an acid trip, I reached over to grab my water bottle but when I tried to drink it nothing happened. Suddenly the visuals went away and I looked over to see that I hadn't actually grabbed the bottle yet - I hallucinated that. Extremely bizzare. On the flip side, cholinergic agonists before bed like galantamine, nicotine patches, etc. create highly detailed dreams often with (at least for me) very epic storylines. I even remember reading a report where someone with a nicotine patch was in a dream where it was raining and they could fully feel the texture of the water hitting their skin.
thats some crazy shit, if it were up to me id belive that over the DMT theory
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psychedelia56
Stranger


Registered: 02/23/09
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Ghostwriter]
#14264627 - 04/09/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is my two cents on DMT and dreaming.
My first experience on mushrooms that I ever had felt very strongly like a lucid dream. I consumed a large amount, 5.5grams, but it was just enough for me to realize what was going on without blacking out and still remember what it was like. I had ego death of course, but even though I could understand what was happening I could not decide if it was good or bad because I thought I would wake up from it eventually. It was a really odd, but familiar feeling.
Now I say this is related to DMT because we all know psilocybin is 4-HO-DMT.. so, if it is indeed DMT you are high on while dreaming then it must be a different form of it at the least.
-------------------- [quote]Shad0w said: A Bong is like the "fukit" of getting high...... You are smoking out of a bong for one reason. And one reason only. To get super high out of your mind.[/quote]
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FUTURIST
In another land...


Registered: 12/02/09
Posts: 736
Last seen: 3 years, 14 days
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: psychedelia56]
#14264655 - 04/09/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The whole dmt dreaming thing is not true at all... Rick Strassman and Joe Rogan are the only 2 people who have said this.. Strassman doesn't think it is in the pineal gland anymore. Strassman is very outdated his work is going on 17 yrs and he gave up long ago.
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melfdis
Strangerer

Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 302
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said: I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams? I've smoked DMT before and there is a sort of "dreamworld" characteristic to everything but it is much more surreal than any dream I've ever had and still far different. Why is this? Shouldn't a DMT trip be very similar to the dreams we have at night?
Has anyone figured this out? Any theories?
I've had dreams that were basically identical to some dmt experiences, fully hyper dimensional fractal geometric patterns, etc. I've read on another forum where a number of people stated having similar experiences, so I'm not the only one.
Edited by melfdis (04/09/11 11:52 PM)
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Harri


Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 1,452
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: melfdis]
#14265131 - 04/10/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe many chemicals are used in the process of dreaming? at different states of sleep?
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drr

Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 8,444
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
#14265178 - 04/10/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
melfdis said: Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.
Interesting, what drugs are those? Dissociatives?
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allseeingike



Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 2,832
Loc: elgin ill-miami fl
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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why arent dreams like dmt trips?
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allseeingike



Registered: 04/06/11
Posts: 2,832
Loc: elgin ill-miami fl
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: drr]
#14265661 - 04/10/11 05:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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why arent dreams like dmt trips
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Smawrpg
Urban Shaman



Registered: 08/23/09
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: allseeingike]
#14265792 - 04/10/11 07:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are certain parts of your brain that aren't conscious while your asleep, so perhaps being fully aware when DMT is released creates a more surreal experience?
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Lunaria
Stranger
Registered: 03/25/11
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: drr]
#14265830 - 04/10/11 07:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
drr said:
Quote:
melfdis said: Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.
Interesting, what drugs are those? Dissociatives?
Deliriants, read my other post. Dissociatives are related, glutamate and acetylcholine work together a lot and their receptors colocalize in parts of the brain so they overlap a lot, but I'd say acetylcholine/deliriants is the more direct link to dreaming. Glutamate/dissociatives is more like the setup, it puts your body into the mode it's in when you sleep, and then it begins dreaming by itself.
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AwakenKundalini
Stranger


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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
#14266029 - 04/10/11 09:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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DMT for me is disembodied conciousness, certainly not the deep meditative state called sleep=
it is the process of death- it is what is waiting for us when the body passes- when there is no more body to return to, it will re manifest into another
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joemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
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Dreams and the DMT experience are both experiences that are reflection, distortions, or perturbations of consensus reality. They are fun house mirrors and I treat them as such. After an intense dream or an especially wacky DMT trip, I feel the same as if I just left the circus. That was strange, interesting, and powerful but I am hungry, horny, and still need to take a shit and consensus reality is still there, unmoved by my experiences or my interpretations of them.
-------------------- Don't PM me with bullshit. I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.
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mongo lloyd
Lone Free Ranger


Registered: 10/16/09
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: joemolloy]
#14266553 - 04/10/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I love how everyone believes that DMT makes you dream, and is released during death etc.
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4HO-DMT


Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 5,073
Loc: County Line Road
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: psychedelia56]
#14266803 - 04/10/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
psychedelia56 said: This is my two cents on DMT and dreaming.
psilocybin is 4-HO-DMT.. so, if it is indeed DMT you are high on while dreaming then it must be a different form of it at the least.
Correction psilocybin is 4-PO-DMT and psilocin is 4-HO-DMT.
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4HO-DMT


Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 5,073
Loc: County Line Road
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Harri]
#14266820 - 04/10/11 12:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Harri said: Maybe many chemicals are used in the process of dreaming? at different states of sleep?
This seems more likely to me. I dream a lot, every night. When I wake up in the middle of the night from a dream, I almost always have CEV for a while. They are similar to mushroom CEVs but are different. I have never done DMT so I don't have a comparison. But it does lead me to believe that DMT plays a part in dreaming.
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FUTURIST
In another land...


Registered: 12/02/09
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: mongo lloyd]
#14267244 - 04/10/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mongo lloyd said: I love how everyone believes that DMT makes you dream, and is released during death etc.
Hahaha! me too!!!!!!!! I'm soooooooo sick of everyone say that!
Rick Strassman and Joe Rogan are the only 2 peeps who have said this.
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Lunaria
Stranger
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: FUTURIST]
#14267600 - 04/10/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
physicist said:
Quote:
Harri said: Maybe many chemicals are used in the process of dreaming? at different states of sleep?
This seems more likely to me. I dream a lot, every night. When I wake up in the middle of the night from a dream, I almost always have CEV for a while. They are similar to mushroom CEVs but are different. I have never done DMT so I don't have a comparison. But it does lead me to believe that DMT plays a part in dreaming.
Well yeah without a doubt. The reason nicotine is so addictive and can have varied effects at different doses is because hits cholinergic receptors and acetylcholine acts as a kind of flood control for your brain's other chemicals, among other things, like memory. I imagine that's why your brain can easily recreate your real life experiences when dreaming... it accesses the memories and then recreates the neurochemical balance, which correlates with the findings that the same receptors are activated when dreaming as when awake for different scenarios. But I still have to doubt that DMT plays much more of a role than whatever it would do in waking life, if anything I'd bet endogenous 5-MeO-DMT is significantly more important from the reports of people waking up in the middle of the night smack dab at the center of a heavy 5-MeO flashback. As for having CEVs after waking up, that sounds much more like an HPPD thing to me, HPPD visuals aren't always identical to the trip that caued them, and I've had plenty of similar occurences for a while after using Benadryl, DXM, etc.
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glimpee
Awakening


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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
#21113153 - 01/13/15 11:24 AM (9 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lunaria said:
Quote:
mamdbdylan said:
Quote:
IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.
ill have to look into Acetylcholine, never heard of it
but yeah DMT is not the chemical that makes you dream...
Acetylcholine is the chemical targeted by deliriants and most of the good dream-enhancing drugs. I think the fact that both agonists and antagonists can have such profound effects really goes to show how complex its mechanism is. Deliriants (which I don't ever recommend) inhibit acetylcholine and create trips that are pretty much like dreaming while awake, you get true hallucinations of things that aren't there and you think it's completely real, and the aftereffects of them can cause some very vivid and often frightening dreams. One time after a Benadryl trip I had a dream that I was caught in some kind of mind labyrinth and I had to solve some problem to get out. I started out in a random scenario and when I fixed the problem I woke up, but it turned out to be a false awakening and soon my bedroom morphed into another scenario to fix. This went on for about eight hours of completely real-seeming madness where I was convinced I'd be trapped in my mind forever and got no actual rest. When I did finally wake up my room was warping and bending like an acid trip, I reached over to grab my water bottle but when I tried to drink it nothing happened. Suddenly the visuals went away and I looked over to see that I hadn't actually grabbed the bottle yet - I hallucinated that. Extremely bizzare. On the flip side, cholinergic agonists before bed like galantamine, nicotine patches, etc. create highly detailed dreams often with (at least for me) very epic storylines. I even remember reading a report where someone with a nicotine patch was in a dream where it was raining and they could fully feel the texture of the water hitting their skin.
Thats crazy - but its also the experience I'v been looking for. What are these deliriant drugs and how can I find them? Your trip reminds me of the movie AKIRA, which is cool and scary, and I want to explore the depths of my psyche and find out who I am while completing challenged made by myself for myself. that sounds amazing. Plus you actually hallucinate! The only time I ever have when I took DMT for the first time last night and saw dead people everywhere, but don't mind that I was just breaking down the mess in my room into incredibly simple patterns that had a lot of red and black. Ill clean up when I take that stuff though hahaha
-------------------- Just because I am arrogant does not mean I forget my place. It is how I choose to talk. I am not a monk. I am my own path, and I am without influence. Talk to me about my core being before you question my mental stability or life-choices. Chances are, they're only shocking to you because they don't fit your idea of what is.
Check out my Art Journal for some stuff I do http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21647069
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nwalker248
Solo Trekker



Registered: 08/22/14
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: glimpee]
#21113190 - 01/13/15 11:29 AM (9 years, 18 days ago) |
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I don't believe DMT 'produces', 'causes' or even creates dreams from what I've read. It's said that during certain things it is released, but there's certainly no proof that it in any way creates your dreams. Dreaming and a psychedelic experience have as much differences than similarities (The main being that you are technically still awake and 'conscious').
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PsychoKinesiS
Alien Resources Manager
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: glimpee]
#21113206 - 01/13/15 11:34 AM (9 years, 18 days ago) |
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I think a DMT trip is like trying to force a lucid dream and that the DMT space is like being given access to a dream staging area. However, it never gets to form into a complete dream because of how unnatural it is and how your consciousness is there interfering with everything. Lucid dreams normally only last a few seconds or under a minute before your consciousness causes the dream to end. So since a complete dream can't form, you just remain in the early stages of dream assembly and see all this chaotic preparation stuff going on. It might also be the types of dreams you have unconconsciously when you are not in a full dream. I actually remember seeing some of this stuff when I am awoken from my sleep.
Edited by PsychoKinesiS (01/13/15 11:35 AM)
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4HO-DMT


Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 5,073
Loc: County Line Road
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Recent studies have shown that the same areas of the brain are active when dreaming as during a psilocybin trip. Source.
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nwalker248
Solo Trekker



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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: 4HO-DMT]
#21113419 - 01/13/15 12:00 PM (9 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
4HO-DMT said: Recent studies have shown that the same areas of the brain are active when dreaming as during a psilocybin trip. Source.
There's no doubt that they're related, no. But there has been no specific evidence that DMT actually 'creates' a dream when it is released in the body. As I say, there are a bunch of similarities to dreaming.
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4HO-DMT


Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 5,073
Loc: County Line Road
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: nwalker248]
#21113438 - 01/13/15 12:03 PM (9 years, 18 days ago) |
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I agree. DMT's action in the brain is still an unanswered question. I wish I could think of an experiment that would determine this. But as of yet, nobody has.
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CannAbyss
Funguy


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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: 4HO-DMT]
#21114323 - 01/13/15 01:35 PM (9 years, 18 days ago) |
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Yeah, as stated...
Any/all statements making connections between endogenous DMT & dream states are entirely speculation.
It's purpose in the human body is unknown. But I feel it's presence supports the idea that it serves a function.
I personally give more merit to DMT having some relationship with the experience of death, than dreams. The parallels between "typical" DMT breakthrough & the "typical" account of a near death experience are strikingly similar. Ie - Leaving the body, going into the light, colours and wild visions, life flashing before your eyes, accepting death etc etc. Often described as absurdly strange, mind blowing and even life changing for the person who experienced it.
Aside from that, it just feels more plausible to me... The anxious adrenaline rush of a heavy dose kicking in feels very much like a fight or flight, survival-type adrenaline rush. Not the kinda rush when you dive off something high, or drive fast for kicks. But that deep, primal survival instinct. It wouldn't be a huge stretch for me to imagine that DMT is closely tied in with other chemicals associated with carrying out our most basic functions.
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HakunaMatata2
Stranger

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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Smawrpg]
#23237764 - 05/17/16 01:38 PM (7 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smawrpg said: There are certain parts of your brain that aren't conscious while your asleep, so perhaps being fully aware when DMT is released creates a more surreal experience?
I think you are totally right, I had a trip on DMT being told by strangers it was speed, My trip wasn't surreal at all, more like my proyection of the world, created by what I know about it, my trip started when I closed my eyes laying on my bed, I had a really weird trip which ended there, in my room, "I woke up in my dream" then I started surfing the web since I had my laptop next to me and I felt like I couldnt move further than my bed.
So I started surfing the web, opened my facebook, got alot of pop ups at bottom right corner saying Searching people for clean up like 10 times then started seeing very weird videos of tsunami's and earthquakes, it felt like my dream was collapsing or "trip" Then I saw a video of myself. scrolling down the page, laying on my bed (where I was before starting the trip) So i saw myself laying on my bed (so I think I experienced being outside of my body) having epileptic attacks, hyperventilating and a dog next to me trying to wake me up then I woke up and I was back in myself.
I'm quite sure I'm not the only person who had this experience since I read more stories like this.
My bedroom scene In which this all happened was only 1 stage of my dream, before that I experienced other scenarios like being inside a movie, I was John Snow, from game of thrones,I always felt really identified by him, and so much in common.
in this scenario what happened was:
- He gets betrayed by who he thinks that are his "friends"
I always trusted everybody and my life was getting out of hand because of people I trusted in were using me and betraying me behind my back, it was a sign I had to change that
- He dies at the end of this scene
I felt like my trust in everybody died there as well and since then I changed into a person who trust's only his best friends.
I'm sure that if you experience it without knowing you will have a trip you will get a much less surreal experience like I had,
WATCH THE MOVIE INCEPTION
-they drug a person without knowing he is taking something and they enter a proyection of reality, a lot of coincidences with my dmt trip VERY interesting
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