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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Registered: 03/03/11
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Why aren't DMT trips like dreams
    #14260278 - 04/08/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams?  I've smoked DMT before and there is a sort of "dreamworld" characteristic to everything but it is much more surreal than any dream I've ever had and still far different.  Why is this?  Shouldn't a DMT trip be very similar to the dreams we have at night?

Has anyone figured this out?  Any theories?


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InvisibleGhostwriter

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 4,825
Loc: USA
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #14260292 - 04/08/11 07:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams?




well for starts, that is not a proven fact
Quote:

Has anyone figured this out?  Any theories?



thats exactly what the "dmt dream" thing is all about, it is a "theory" not a "fact"


it is a hypothesis from Rick Strassman, the author of DMT: the spirit molecule...

read the book then you will get it


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OfflineLunaria
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Registered: 03/25/11
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Ghostwriter]
    #14260335 - 04/08/11 07:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mamdbdylan said:
Quote:

I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams?




well for starts, that is not a proven fact
Quote:

Has anyone figured this out?  Any theories?



thats exactly what the "dmt dream" thing is all about, it is a "theory" not a "fact"


it is a hypothesis from Rick Strassman, the author of DMT: the spirit molecule...

read the book then you will get it



^ This. IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.


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InvisibleGhostwriter

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 4,825
Loc: USA
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
    #14260608 - 04/08/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.




ill have to look into Acetylcholine, never heard of it

but yeah DMT is not the chemical that makes you dream...


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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
    #14260649 - 04/08/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If sleep is the cousin of death, DMT is the cousin of dreams.  The two mental states have many similarities, the most significant being that they both seem to slip away rather quickly regardless of their intensity.  The details become cloudy turning into emotions that soon become vague and that murkiness eventually dissipates into forgetfulness.  And then you'll do it again to remember.  And when I am in the midst of it, I know every secret of the universe, I become the mind of God and then poof! 

The dream is over and the cycle repeats often with unpredictably insane twists and turns.  If I wanted to aggravate myself (and endear myself to the shroomy mystics), I'd say that sobriety is the dream and DMT is the reality.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.


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Offlineastronaut
ascetic aesthetic
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Registered: 09/11/07
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: joemolloy]
    #14261344 - 04/08/11 11:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

To me, the DMT experience lies within a state of being that cannot be subsumed in an abstract relation to another. To declare one the signifier and the other the signified, is to negate the reality of both through the articulation of one.

That having been said, DMT for me induces a paradoxical state of being that is defined both by radically calm awareness, and a radically intense inner landscape. It is the embodied unity of yogic and tantric potentiality.


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!


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OfflineLunaria
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Registered: 03/25/11
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: astronaut]
    #14262153 - 04/09/11 08:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mamdbdylan said:
Quote:

IMO the idea that DMT produces dreams is pretty unfounded. Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.




ill have to look into Acetylcholine, never heard of it

but yeah DMT is not the chemical that makes you dream...



Acetylcholine is the chemical targeted by deliriants and most of the good dream-enhancing drugs. I think the fact that both agonists and antagonists can have such profound effects really goes to show how complex its mechanism is. Deliriants (which I don't ever recommend) inhibit acetylcholine and create trips that are pretty much like dreaming while awake, you get true hallucinations of things that aren't there and you think it's completely real, and the aftereffects of them can cause some very vivid and often frightening dreams. One time after a Benadryl trip I had a dream that I was caught in some kind of mind labyrinth and I had to solve some problem to get out. I started out in a random scenario and when I fixed the problem I woke up, but it turned out to be a false awakening and soon my bedroom morphed into another scenario to fix. This went on for about eight hours of completely real-seeming madness where I was convinced I'd be trapped in my mind forever and got no actual rest. When I did finally wake up my room was warping and bending like an acid trip, I reached over to grab my water bottle but when I tried to drink it nothing happened. Suddenly the visuals went away and I looked over to see that I hadn't actually grabbed the bottle yet - I hallucinated that. Extremely bizzare. On the flip side, cholinergic agonists before bed like galantamine, nicotine patches, etc. create highly detailed dreams often with (at least for me) very epic storylines. I even remember reading a report where someone with a nicotine patch was in a dream where it was raining and they could fully feel the texture of the water hitting their skin.


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InvisibleGhostwriter

Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 4,825
Loc: USA
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
    #14262541 - 04/09/11 10:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Acetylcholine is the chemical targeted by deliriants and most of the good dream-enhancing drugs. I think the fact that both agonists and antagonists can have such profound effects really goes to show how complex its mechanism is. Deliriants (which I don't ever recommend) inhibit acetylcholine and create trips that are pretty much like dreaming while awake, you get true hallucinations of things that aren't there and you think it's completely real, and the aftereffects of them can cause some very vivid and often frightening dreams. One time after a Benadryl trip I had a dream that I was caught in some kind of mind labyrinth and I had to solve some problem to get out. I started out in a random scenario and when I fixed the problem I woke up, but it turned out to be a false awakening and soon my bedroom morphed into another scenario to fix. This went on for about eight hours of completely real-seeming madness where I was convinced I'd be trapped in my mind forever and got no actual rest. When I did finally wake up my room was warping and bending like an acid trip, I reached over to grab my water bottle but when I tried to drink it nothing happened. Suddenly the visuals went away and I looked over to see that I hadn't actually grabbed the bottle yet - I hallucinated that. Extremely bizzare. On the flip side, cholinergic agonists before bed like galantamine, nicotine patches, etc. create highly detailed dreams often with (at least for me) very epic storylines. I even remember reading a report where someone with a nicotine patch was in a dream where it was raining and they could fully feel the texture of the water hitting their skin.




thats some crazy shit, if it were up to me id belive that over the DMT theory


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Offlinepsychedelia56
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Registered: 02/23/09
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Ghostwriter]
    #14264627 - 04/09/11 10:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is my two cents on DMT and dreaming.

My first experience on mushrooms that I ever had felt very strongly like a lucid dream. I consumed a large amount, 5.5grams, but it was just enough for me to realize what was going on without blacking out and still remember what it was like. I had ego death of course, but even though I could understand what was happening I could not decide if it was good or bad because I thought I would wake up from it eventually. It was a really odd, but familiar feeling.

Now I say this is related to DMT because we all know psilocybin is 4-HO-DMT.. so, if it is indeed DMT you are high on while dreaming then it must be a different form of it at the least.


--------------------
[quote]Shad0w said:
A Bong is like the "fukit" of getting high...... You are smoking out of a bong for one reason. And one reason only. To get super high out of your mind.[/quote]


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OfflineFUTURIST
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Registered: 12/02/09
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: psychedelia56]
    #14264655 - 04/09/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The whole dmt dreaming thing is not true at all... Rick Strassman and Joe Rogan are the only 2 people who have said this.. Strassman doesn't think it is in the pineal gland anymore. Strassman is very outdated his work is going on 17 yrs and he gave up long ago.


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Offlinemelfdis
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Registered: 07/22/07
Posts: 302
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #14265013 - 04/09/11 11:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
I know that DMT is the chemical produced naturally by your pineal gland at night that causes you to dream...so if that's the case, why aren't DMT trips similar to dreams?  I've smoked DMT before and there is a sort of "dreamworld" characteristic to everything but it is much more surreal than any dream I've ever had and still far different.  Why is this?  Shouldn't a DMT trip be very similar to the dreams we have at night?

Has anyone figured this out?  Any theories?




I've had dreams that were basically identical to some dmt experiences, fully hyper dimensional fractal geometric patterns, etc.  I've read on another forum where a number of people stated having similar experiences, so I'm not the only one.


Edited by melfdis (04/09/11 11:52 PM)


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InvisibleHarri


Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 1,452
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: melfdis]
    #14265131 - 04/10/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe many chemicals are used in the process of dreaming? at different states of sleep?


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Invisibledrr
Female
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 8,444
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
    #14265178 - 04/10/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

melfdis said:
Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.



Interesting, what drugs are those? Dissociatives?


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Offlineallseeingike
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Registered: 04/06/11
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #14265656 - 04/10/11 05:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

why arent dreams like dmt trips?


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Offlineallseeingike
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: drr]
    #14265661 - 04/10/11 05:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

why arent dreams like dmt trips


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OfflineSmawrpg
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: allseeingike]
    #14265792 - 04/10/11 07:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There are certain parts of your brain that aren't conscious while your asleep, so perhaps being fully aware when DMT is released creates a more surreal experience?


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OfflineLunaria
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Registered: 03/25/11
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: drr]
    #14265830 - 04/10/11 07:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

drr said:
Quote:

melfdis said:
Acetylcholine has a much more direct link, and drugs that effect levels of it do produce trips that are nearly identical to dreaming.



Interesting, what drugs are those? Dissociatives?



Deliriants, read my other post. Dissociatives are related, glutamate and acetylcholine work together a lot and their receptors colocalize in parts of the brain so they overlap a lot, but I'd say acetylcholine/deliriants is the more direct link to dreaming. Glutamate/dissociatives is more like the setup, it puts your body into the mode it's in when you sleep, and then it begins dreaming by itself.


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OfflineAwakenKundalini
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: Lunaria]
    #14266029 - 04/10/11 09:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

DMT for me is disembodied conciousness, certainly not the deep meditative state called sleep=

it is the process of death- it is what is waiting for us when the body passes- when there is no more body to return to, it will re manifest into another


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Invisiblejoemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: AwakenKundalini]
    #14266216 - 04/10/11 09:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Dreams and the DMT experience are both experiences that are reflection, distortions, or perturbations of consensus reality.  They are fun house mirrors and I treat them as such.  After an intense dream or an especially wacky DMT trip, I feel the same as if I just left the circus.  That was strange, interesting, and powerful but I am hungry, horny, and still need to take a shit and consensus reality is still there, unmoved by my experiences or my interpretations of them.


--------------------
Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.


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Offlinemongo lloyd
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Re: Why aren't DMT trips like dreams [Re: joemolloy]
    #14266553 - 04/10/11 11:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I love how everyone believes that DMT makes you dream, and is released during death etc.


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