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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14258396 - 04/08/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm:


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14259186 - 04/08/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you meditate and practice awareness for years, you too can misunderstand and misinterpret very clear statements.


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OfflineSimms
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14259619 - 04/08/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If you meditate and practice awareness for years, you too can misunderstand and misinterpret very clear statements.




There are clear statements? The word, "interpret" --

1. Explain the meaning of (information, words, or actions): "interpret the evidence".
2. Translate orally the words of another person speaking a different language.


Translation means information loss, the same way one translates pictorial image into words: the ordinance of detail gets messed up.

Explanation is a derivate of ones own mind and beliefs.

So what really means "uninterpret"?

I say one mentally "sober" (yes I used that expression to your favour here) person can be as much unaware than any other mentally "sober" person who meditates or not.

I believe you mean here that "correct interpretation" means applying to mainstream interpretation. But interpretation is never accurate.


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Edited by Simms (04/08/11 04:47 PM)

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14260339 - 04/08/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
so atheism is, in a way, inherently reactionary



How is the default belief (or lack thereof) that every single human is born with before being indoctrinated by family/society "reactionary"? :confused:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14260361 - 04/08/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There ya go again - asking a logical question to which you will not receive an answer. :rolleyes:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14260922 - 04/08/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

guruu said:
so atheism is, in a way, inherently reactionary



How is the default belief (or lack thereof) that every single human is born with before being indoctrinated by family/society "reactionary"? :confused:




cause that's bullshit! you aren't born an atheist! Your consciousness has no descriptive factors upon birth.  Later, you might start to think of yourself as an atheist.  Then, you have "atheist-consciousness," basically you have adopted the term atheist and kept it as a fixture of consciousness.  A baby isn't like that at all, even if from an exterior perspective they are clearly not theistic in belief.  But, all the same atheism is a belief, by virtue of the fact that we're even talking about it.  And the reason it's reactionary is cuz of how important God is to so many people, and therefor how important it is for some people to strongly adhere to the "atheist" designation.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261084 - 04/08/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm:

Quote:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

So, are babies born believing that deities exist?

There are only two options: yes or no. If yes, they are theists. If no, they are atheists.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14261134 - 04/08/11 11:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i'm trying to lead you to a different perspective, where you actually see atheism for what it truly is: a mental label.  Don't just keep falling back on the definition and trying to get me into a semantics war, which you will inevitably win (atheists are pretty good at winning semantics wars).  Really think, is the baby an atheist in any true sense, or is that just a label you are putting onto it? Basically, is atheism observed? By what is it observed? A baby has the thing that is observing (it is the thing that is observing). It doesn't have atheism, from its own perspective, cause its a baby and hasn't thought about that stuff yet.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261148 - 04/08/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, but if "atheism" is just a mental label, then so is language in general; this entire discussion is completely invalidated. To say that the baby is "not an atheist" is just as much of a label that you are projecting on to it as saying that it is an atheist. It's just another value judgment in the opposite direction.

If you admit that language (and thus the terms of this discussion) have any validity, then babies are atheists. if you say that language is not valid because it consists of labels that don't actually define experience, this discussion, along with your point, is negated.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14261171 - 04/08/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, if you wanna play the "language is invalid" card then i won't disagree with that because i agree that speech can never totally represent reality.  However, I think my words are pointing more towards reality than yours are if you are gonna say a baby is an atheist.  I think that's misleading.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261252 - 04/08/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No, I'm saying that you're trying to play the "language is invalid" card by claiming that the word "atheism" doesn't truly represent babies' viewpoint.

I'm arguing that if any word describes their viewpoint it's atheism, and if no word describes their viewpoint then this entire argument doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is even more pointless than it was before.


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261256 - 04/08/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's clear that people just have different definitions of atheism and that is the whole root of the argument.

Quote:

Implicit vs. explicit
Main article: Implicit and explicit atheism
Definitions of atheism also vary in the degree of consideration a person must put to the idea of gods to be considered an atheist. Atheism has sometimes been defined to include the simple absence of belief that any deities exist. This broad definition would include newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas. As far back as 1772, Baron d'Holbach said that "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."[37] Similarly, George H. Smith (1979) suggested that: "The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist."[38] Smith coined the term implicit atheism to refer to "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it" and explicit atheism to refer to the more common definition of conscious disbelief. Ernest Nagel contradicts Smith's definition of atheism as merely "absence of theism", acknowledging only explicit atheism as true "atheism".[39]




Wiki

I think this is a pretty good summary or the arguments, and I doubt anyone is going to change their mind about which definition is "right".


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14262777 - 04/09/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I'm arguing that if any word describes their viewpoint it's atheism, and if no word describes their viewpoint then this entire argument doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is even more pointless than it was before.




I'd go with the "no word describes their viewpoint" and say that this discussion is in fact pointless :tongue2: except just for funzies.  Like everything :wink:


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14281743 - 04/13/11 12:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Babies are a poor example for either argument because a baby/newborn (for all extensive purposes) has no way of identifying the self. Ergo, baby does not identify with anything.

I like the reactionary argument and I also like the argument that atheism wouldn't have a name if there weren't a broad population that believed otherwise.

But Hume had a good point that there is no empirical way of proving "the self". Therefore, you can run one way or the other with it, AND YOU DO! One will say that it requires faith to believe in the self and the other will call bullshit. Either way we end up at a pragmatic coinflip...

Both sides try their best to appear as logical arguments but both are ENTIRELY emotional. :shrug:

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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14281980 - 04/13/11 02:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

babies are born non racists as well. Do non racists consider themselves non racists as a reaction to racists or just normal people?

There are atheists who don't believe in a god and there are ones that think religion is evil mind control ruining the world(like me) but really to not believe in a god and call it a religion is like calling non racist people non racists as a racist group I guess.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14282144 - 04/13/11 03:07 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
Babies are a poor example for either argument because a baby/newborn (for all extensive purposes) has no way of identifying the self. Ergo, baby does not identify with anything.


The baby doesn't have to identify as anything to qualify as being atheist. :baby:


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
Both sides try their best to appear as logical arguments but both are ENTIRELY emotional. :shrug:


No. One side is based on a lot of evidence. The other side is based on complete horseshit. :pope::holyshit:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14282830 - 04/13/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

k... from YOUR subjective point of view of the term atheist. YES, the baby is born in such a way..

But as for the second part.. all of the "evidence" you have is based on empirical data. That's what scientific observation is.

SO, is it fair to say that science has any room to speak in matters of faith when:
1.it cannot identify the self
2.its parameters are limited to OUR shallow understanding of existence

Just because you say something is truth and run with it for a long period of time, does not make it so.. That's why science only claims that there is a high likelihood of such events and there are VERY FEW laws. Yes, scientifically a theory can be almost certain, but nothing is 100% proven as FACT, not even a law.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14282836 - 04/13/11 09:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

that's what i'm sayin...the baby doesn't identify as anything...that's why its a good example


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14282970 - 04/13/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
k... from YOUR subjective point of view of the term atheist. YES, the baby is born in such a way..


That's not merely my subjective point of view, the term 'atheist' actually denotes the lack of a belief in God.


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
But as for the second part.. all of the "evidence" you have is based on empirical data. That's what scientific observation is.


Yeah, and?


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
SO, is it fair to say that science has any room to speak in matters of faith when:


Why should matters of faith be logically scrutinized by science differently than anything else? That would be selective reasoning.


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
1.it cannot identify the self


It has; it's in the brain somewhere.


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
2.its parameters are limited to OUR shallow understanding of existence


What's so shallow about our understanding of existence? Do you think your ability to make that post on an internet forum came from a shallow understanding of computer science? :flowstone:


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
Just because you say something is truth and run with it for a long period of time, does not make it so..


True, what's your point?


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
That's why science only claims that there is a high likelihood of such events and there are VERY FEW laws. Yes, scientifically a theory can be almost certain, but nothing is 100% proven as FACT, not even a law.


True, what's your point?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14283080 - 04/13/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i seriously don't know how anybody has the patience to argue with you once you get all hyper quote status


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