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OfflinePhluck
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Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo
    #1425905 - 04/03/03 01:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So I have this friend named Tom, and he likes Philosophy. He looks and smells like a hippie, and plans to spend the summer as he did last year, hitchhiking around BC.

Well, kind of. You see, he has an interest in Kaballah, and believes in reiki and well, you name it. He often goes off on rants, explaining how Kaballah is the perfect mix of religion and science, but when I try to counter or explain things to him, he doesn't really listen.

He has this theory that the universe is comprised of a one and a zero, representing male and female... I ask, "what's the evidence?", and he says, "I just told you." As you can see there's a bit of a logic deficiency. He listens on occasion, and at times I've seen him spit back twisted versions of my own thoughts, altered to fit into his worldview.

He's still a nice guy, and fun to talk to.

Anyways, yesterday, I decided to take some AMT with him. We spent the first few hours discussing and drawing out fractal patterns, but as the drug kicked in stronger and stronger, Tom's mouth started moving more and more.

Tom was becomming a non-stop word generating machine.

We began walking to my friend Dave's house, and ran into my sister. Uh oh, it's probably best she doesn't know we're tripping... and I know Tom is not going to shut up.

Tom: "All of reality is how you perceive it. You can actually alter the frequency at which you receive reality, and you will shift dimensions."

Me: "That's some interesting speculation Tom, but that's not something we can actually check for validity."

Tom: "Sure it is, I just explained it to you!"

Me: "Uh... Okay."

My sister went on her way eventually. She already thinks Tom is insane, so it's alright.

We arrived at Dave's house, and Dave and his girlfriend Lyndall each took some AMT.

Tom kept talking.

"The universe is made of a one and a zero, male and female. Male is the creative part of the universe, and female is the logical. "

"Humans are always driving around in cars, looking through these square windows, like TV. Everything is seen through a screen. We create these blocky square buildings, it's the wrong frequency, not the frequency of nature."

As time went on, we decided to watch a movie (maybe Tom would shut up for a little while!):

"These images are just flying past my brain. What are these people even doing? Why make movies, why not just go outside and actually EXPERIENCE life? Why would you need to do all this..."

Me: "It's ART, Tom."

Tom would sometimes get his mind blown by us. In strange ways, examples:

Tom: "People shouldn't just sit there watching TV, it's like they're just watching life go by. They should get out there, they should be PLAYING life."

Dave: "Here, I'll plug in the Playstation, we can play TV."

Tom: "Whoa... playing TV."

OR...

Tom: "Men build upwards, in giant phallic symbols. That's why we have skyscrapers, and missles. Women build outward, across everything. Encompassing more, it's more holistic."

Me: "What if we built a building that was really tall AND really wide?"

Tom: "Whoa..."

The next morning, Dave's dad told Dave to do the dishes.

Tom: "Do the dishes?! That's exactly the opposite of everything we've been talking about all night. Why do we need to DO the dishes? Can't they just stay the way they are? They're still dishes!"

It's best not to let Tom talk to your parents.

When I finally got home, I was still tripping a bit. I'd been hearing Tom's voice for so long, it was burnt into my brain. Everything I'd do would be countered by Tom's voice in my head:

"Go to bed? Why do we need to sleep? We should just stay up all the time, enjoy life! Drinking water? If you reverse your personal polarity, you'll be able to exist without such crutches. Plus, water is infused with all sorts of artificial man-made chemicals that are rotting your body from the inside... blah blah blah blah..."

I've heard of a few different people who came out of strong trips being unable to stop questioning their reality. I was stuck with a little voice in my head that was doing the questioning.

Finally, I fell asleep, and when I woke up, Tom was no longer in my head.

Deep down, Tom is an intelligent guy. He just doesn't have the right education, and he's convinced himself of his ideas with a religious kind of faith, so he lacks the ability to question his ideas, or to use logic to separate the good from the bad.

I need to figure out a way to teach him logical thought, without seriously offending him, because it's pretty damn hard to have a philosophical conversation with someone who doesn't consider any countering beliefs whatsoever. Any ideas?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1425940 - 04/03/03 01:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The first thing that comes to my mind is to buy him a book by Ken Wilber. Wilber is a brilliant philosopher who has integrated the perrenial truths of ancient religions with modern day science. He combines rigorous logic with a very holistic view of the world and has some interesting things to say about the male-female dichotomy that your friend is so hung up on.

I would suggest Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. It's about a thousand pages long though so if your friend is not a hardcore reader, he might not be interested...

Alan Watts is also very lucid and insightful, so there's another author who might be able to reallign his thinking a little bit...


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Offlineshaggy101
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1425953 - 04/03/03 01:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Oh man that was really funny! Ahem...

I find it funny how people go from one program.. break free(man I used to be so gullibleblabla..) and just find a new one..  and they wont see that all they did was replace there former self deception with a knew one.

Can you slow him down? Maybe try getting at the core of his beliefs??
Sober ..or maybe on opiates :smirk:
Its hard talking to people who wont listen, if your gonna talk you should listen.. 


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1425977 - 04/03/03 01:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Awesome post


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1425978 - 04/03/03 01:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This sounds exactly like me a year or so ago.. questioning every last fucking thing in my life.

"Dirt on the kitchen floor of my apartment? Dirt has as much a right to be there as I do, why should I feel I have to clean it up?"

and shit like that... this relentless thought process WOULD NOT CEASE! it drove me insane. Of course I didn't know how to begin talking about it, I just thought it constantly. Sometimes I would try to explain to someone but they wouldn't really follow.

Try telling him that talking and analyzing things like he is only limiting him to one perspective.... Tell him he is the one that is looking at everything through a window.

Eventually I told myself this was not a healthy state of mind... I had to keep telling myself this, and gradually I've learned to enjoy my time without questioning it, it's taken a shit-load of patience and anguish though

im almost positive it came about from my acid trips mixed with my lifestyle at the time

you have to be really careful, when you start thinking you know how everything works, it can inflate some sort of super hybrid egoless ego that can leave you feeling empty. imo, all the knowledge in the world doesn't measure up to a pure harmonious feeling that can lack any conscious thought whatsoever.





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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: sunyata]
    #1425980 - 04/03/03 01:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Seems like Ken Wilber is exactly the kind of drivel that he already spouts. I'm trying to get him to think critically. Not to spout religious ideas without analyzing them.

"Wilber has become known as a profound thinker among New Agers and sundry mystical seekers. This sample from his writings is intended as an introduction for those not well-versed in typically opaque mystical prose. However, even these selections are enough to show that Wilber's reputation rests on the most appalling drivel, passing obscurity and hints of great spiritual depths to be plumbed as insights into deep reality. This is, of course, traditional for philosophers and mystics -- mixing comfortable falsehoods with great lengths of self-indulgent verbiage has always been a good way to impress intellectuals. It would have been nice to find more that is new in New Age doctrines, however. Even its seemingly serious writings are not very different from the odiously obscurantist theological treatises of more traditional religions."


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1425990 - 04/03/03 01:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Mmm hmm. Ever bother to investigate anything yourself, or do you generally dismiss everything out of hand based on someone else's opinion? Anyway, matters not; it was just a suggestion. Take care.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1425992 - 04/03/03 01:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Next time he's tripping, say to him, "Everything you know is a lie!" That'll probably at least make him shut up for a few seconds while he ponders that.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: silversoul7]
    #1425996 - 04/03/03 01:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Heh.

Just let him be. He is looking within himself for answers, and some say that's where the answers lie.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: sunyata]
    #1426014 - 04/03/03 01:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I didn't exactly have time to read his books, but in my experience, everyone who "mixes science with religon" is actually applying scientific language to religious convictions, without any real understanding of what science actually means.

I can't go about ready every piece of pseudoscientic drivel and analysing it. There are hundreds of thousands of these books, I've read a couple, skimmed through others, sometimes I'll even carry them around and show them to a few friends. Every single one of these books probably contains one passage hilarious enough to make anyone crack up.

Present me with a valid, logical idea of his, concerning the mixture of science and religion, and maybe I'll change my mind.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1426019 - 04/03/03 01:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Cool. I'll post it in another topic at a later date, if you're honestly going to read it. I don't want to waste my time...

BTW, I find myself agreeing w/ friartuck. Why are you so concerned with making your friend think more the way you do?


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: friartuck]
    #1426022 - 04/03/03 01:41 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't have too much of a problem with the fact that he thinks this way. It bothers me a bit, I'll admit, but it's not so bad.

But if he wants to discuss it with me, as I know he does, because he constantly discusses it with me, he's going to have to learn to listen to my ideas as well. You can't really have a philosophical conversation where your just state "facts".


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1426029 - 04/03/03 01:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This is true. Have you ever tried just telling him you're not interested in listening unless he is willing to listen to you?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1426048 - 04/03/03 01:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ask him why he always talks without ever listening(preferably ask him this while he's tripping). Ask him why his ego won't allow him to listen to your ideas(guys like that hate to think that they have an ego).


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefriartuck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: sunyata]
    #1426054 - 04/03/03 01:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Good suggestion


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: sunyata]
    #1426073 - 04/03/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I will honestly read and analyze it.

I'm not trying to get him to think more like me, I'm trying to get him to think, period. He refuses to analyze any criticism he's given. Even when his philosophies have glaring contradictions.

He doesn't philsophize, he preaches. He's trying a lot harder to get us to think like him. I haven't really put forth any effort to change him. I just think that if he learns to think critically, he'd be a very interesting person to talk to. Instead of someone who just talks AT you.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1426091 - 04/03/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seems like Ken Wilber is exactly the kind of drivel that he already spouts. I'm trying to get him to think critically. Not to spout religious ideas without analyzing them.






That is the best thing you could do for anyone!

Great job!

Cheers,


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: Phluck]
    #1426094 - 04/03/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, I know people like Tom too. Still IMO it's best to just go with what is rather than what could be. If you don't like being around the guy as he is, then stop being around him. Thinking we know what's best for people is generally an error in my experience.


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Invisiblesunyata
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: ]
    #1426103 - 04/03/03 02:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  That is the best thing you could do for anyone!




Sez you...  :tongue:

Not everyone is qualified to be a Socrates... 


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Brain Rattlin' Mumbo Jumbo [Re: sunyata]
    #1426109 - 04/03/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

No, no. I like Tom, really. He's a nice guy, and a great friend. He like to talk about philosophy, and so do I. There is no hostility whatsoever.
Just a bit of annoyance.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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