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Lennyk
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Any unselfish reason to have children?
#14258555 - 04/08/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pissed off too many philosopher professors with kids in the last week, so I bring you the question. Can anyone provide one truly unselfish reason to have a child? Every parenting site I see gives reasons for the parent (highly biased and not painting an accurate pictures of the hardships i might add).
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
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Kickle
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14258583 - 04/08/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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All actions have a self-serving base to them. Are you trying to find some form of altruism in regards to kids?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lennyk
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Kickle]
#14258659 - 04/08/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: All actions have a self-serving base to them. Are you trying to find some form of altruism in regards to kids?
Nope, I don't want children. I am just looking for possible theories that I have not heard. I have had my various reasons in the past and still currently hold the same views. I cannot find an unselfish reason to bring a child into the world, and plan to stand my ground when the pressure comes from my mom and such to settle down and have a family. It is bound to occur, mother's want grandchildren after all. If some awe inspiring theory comes along, it could perhaps make me see things differently, but I have yet to come across one.
Everyone in the end puts forth the notion that somehow giving the gift of life is some unselfish reason. Yet when asked why they want to give it, they come up short in proper reasoning. It always comes to personal fulfillment and the call of mother nature.
I believe I would be a great parent if I had to be, much more fitting than most of the ones I see on a daily basis that didn't plan well enough. I live in an area with the 2nd highest teen pregnancy rate in the state and have been told I simply see things in a negative light as a result. I have gone far and wide to explore this issue, and my friend agrees with me in a slightly different way. He is against children due to the era we live in, which I cannot disagree with seems like a valid reason in its own right.
I pretty much am choosing a career path in the medical field, so I am against people and what not. I just can't seem to find any reason for having a kid.
To pass on my genes? Selfish and doesn't matter really. Heck I am nearly blind, can't even give the kid sight.
To save the world with a smart kid? Still selfish and pretty extreme to assume so much of a person.
To experience life and love? They wouldn't know either good or bad or existence at all. Seems more of a reason based on me wanting to see them experience it.
Anyway I look at it, selfish. If I had a child, and they were as questioning as I was (i called out the santa hoax waay too early on) they may ask why they were brought into this world. Anyone can give a reason, usually a bad one, but I can't find anyone to give a reason that is an unselfish one that explains it to the benefit of the child. Saying they are a product of love doesn't change the fact the parents desired the child for their own reasons.
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
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Freedom
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14258668 - 04/08/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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do your part to raise the next generation

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Lennyk
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Freedom]
#14258681 - 04/08/11 01:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: do your part to raise the next generation


frankly I doubt me not having a child is going to cripple the future of humanity. People pop out children without understanding the magnitude of their decision often enough.
A powerful statement, but I ask why? What is the benefit of the child, and not me feeling "I did my duty by continuing humanity."
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
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Crake
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Kickle]
#14258717 - 04/08/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hmmm. I like these types of questions. I'll debate it with you if you do not mind 
It would seem to me that the question can be asked of both represented sides of the argument. Is there any unselfish reason NOT to have children? I would guess yes, one such example of selflessness would be simple child birth itself (as through the mother's eyes.) The whole of the act (excluding sexual intercourse) can be viewed as being unselfish. The suffering imparted upon the mother implies selflessness. She foregos much to incubate, birth, then rear said child. Furthermore, who is to say that her child will not in some way liberate the world of much suffering? So to not have children may in fact be much more selfish than the act of having a child.
To the credit of the opposition - forgoing childbirth is arguably the most selfless act one could perform given the condition of the biosphere in general. As a member of humanity, the most powerful apex predator in known existence, it would seem that allowing our genes to fall back into balance with the remaining biosphere will someday be the only option, or be subject to annihilation bar none.
I would love to prance off on a tirade on the procession of degradation of ecosystems and their systemic feedback loop, but this isn't the place.
Great question. Very relevant. Let's all hope the talking heads don't take up similar lanes of inquiry.
-------------------- MANGO Snowman wakes before dawn. He lies unmoving, listening to the tide coming in, wave after wave sloshing over the various barricades, wish-wash, wish-wash, the rhythm of heartbeat. He would so like to believe he is still asleep.
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Freedom
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14258756 - 04/08/11 02:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you feel any desire to help the future of mankind?
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Lennyk
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Crake]
#14258771 - 04/08/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crake said: Hmmm. I like these types of questions. I'll debate it with you if you do not mind 
It would seem to me that the question can be asked of both represented sides of the argument. Is there any unselfish reason NOT to have children? I would guess yes, one such example of selflessness would be simple child birth itself (as through the mother's eyes.) The whole of the act (excluding sexual intercourse) can be viewed as being unselfish. The suffering imparted upon the mother implies selflessness. She foregos much to incubate, birth, then rear said child. Furthermore, who is to say that her child will not in some way liberate the world of much suffering? So to not have children may in fact be much more selfish than the act of having a child.
The question remains though, how is this unselfish for the child, the one of most concern in this equation.
I don't see the suffering of the parent to be selfless, but rather a product of a selfish desire instilled by mother nature (deceptive of how pleasurable sex is compared to the rest of the pregnancy) to produce a child for the variety of reasons (continuing humanity and one's stake in the gene pool).
It is not so much what a child does with his or her life, but the matter of bringing a child into the world at all. If one is thinking they could save the world, that seems to be a selfish desire for the improvement of mankind, and an unhealthy weight to even think a child could be capable of.
I actually take the opposite position on sexual intercourse. If done for mutual pleasure, I do not see it as selfish as (unless a child is produced, or a party involved is harmed) as it is truly consensual and the only ones involved fully accept the act.
Quote:
Freedom said: Do you feel any desire to help the future of mankind?
I plan to be a doctor, and I am more concerned with those currently alive. If they are here, might as well make life as healthy as possible. If people desire to bring children into the world, the child should have the best chance at happiness and health. My beliefs would not hinder my medical opinion.
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
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Freedom
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14258902 - 04/08/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Unselfish behavior comes from the unself.
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genericanonymity
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Freedom]
#14258956 - 04/08/11 02:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't plan on having kids myself. The major reason I, for a time, thought about having them was the movie Idiocracy. I see that you've addressed the idea that expecting a child to avoid that sort of future may be putting too much responsibility on that child, though.
Lately I've been considering egg donation, by which someone who actually wants kids could pass on my family's genes. I'm not saying that I am personally a preferred human being, but that the whole of my family seems to have a well-balanced and diverse gene pool.
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Lennyk
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Quote:
Freedom said: Unselfish behavior comes from the unself.

Quote:
genericanonymity said: I don't plan on having kids myself. The major reason I, for a time, thought about having them was the movie Idiocracy. I see that you've addressed the idea that expecting a child to avoid that sort of future may be putting too much responsibility on that child, though.
Lately I've been considering egg donation, by which someone who actually wants kids could pass on my family's genes. I'm not saying that I am personally a preferred human being, but that the whole of my family seems to have a well-balanced and diverse gene pool.
The movie is quite good. "I'M BEATIN!" "FUCK YOU, I'm EATING". Although it is hard for me to be swayed heavily by such extremes it shows.
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
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Shroomerette
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14259061 - 04/08/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lennyk said: To pass on my genes? Selfish and doesn't matter really. Heck I am nearly blind, can't even give the kid sight.
I could see passing on genes as an altruistic motive for having children if you did have awesome genes though. For example, what if you were a genius without any family history of disease? What if you also had perfect vision, hearing, etc. and some type of genetic resistance to cancer? It seems to me that passing on those genes would be beneficial for humanity in the future. Whether it is truly altrustic would depend on whether you want humanity to survive and prosper or whether you think that humanity is a blight on the planet. I can see both viewpoints. I think a lot of people would consider that altrustic though.
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Crake
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14259238 - 04/08/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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My final proposition is that childbirth holds quality of both sides, for this there is proof in observation. The question was in fact answered, albeit, not in your preferred context, which we now know to be through the eyes of the child.
To answer the question in the way that you want the question answered, we would have to turn to statistics. If not statistics, then you answered your own question before it stood for debate.
In either case, despite the outcome - what happens to you and I, all is natural. It will all be O.K., end. None shall pass.
-------------------- MANGO Snowman wakes before dawn. He lies unmoving, listening to the tide coming in, wave after wave sloshing over the various barricades, wish-wash, wish-wash, the rhythm of heartbeat. He would so like to believe he is still asleep.
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BothHands
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14259252 - 04/08/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, considering I'd be adopting, yes. It would serve me, in that I'd have a child, but it would also very much serve the child.
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Doc_T
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14259276 - 04/08/11 03:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"I'm so incredibly awesome that I must reproduce for the good of the species. My children may save the future of humanity".
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Simms
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Crake]
#14259410 - 04/08/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crake said: Hmmm. I like these types of questions. I'll debate it with you if you do not mind 
It would seem to me that the question can be asked of both represented sides of the argument. Is there any unselfish reason NOT to have children? I would guess yes, one such example of selflessness would be simple child birth itself (as through the mother's eyes.) The whole of the act (excluding sexual intercourse) can be viewed as being unselfish. The suffering imparted upon the mother implies selflessness. ...
So? I can also conclude from that mother gets relief from that feeling of "unselfishness," feeling that she gives something, but that last feeling is very selfish indeed -- to feel good.
And on top of that, our emotions are controlled by biology, women have periods, their emotions fluctuate, men have different emotions before and after intercourse when certain chemical levels are different. There are Xanax etc, which also seem to prove this theory.
So, that need to feel good in that way is actually controlled by bilogy, telling you to have children. The only way a person can be completely unselfish is to act completely against itself, but I don't even know if this is possible, since every action requires will.
You very kindly rejected the actual question: Why a woman feels it is nessesary to go through burden and give birth at all?
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SlashOZ
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Kickle]
#14259581 - 04/08/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: All actions have a self-serving base to them. Are you trying to find some form of altruism in regards to kids?
I'm with kickle here. You are asking someone to come up with at least 1 reason why having kids is altruistic? I understand wanting to know the reasons behind someone wanting a child but to hold them to an impossible standard is just pointless.
I'm of the opinion that having kids is selfish and that being selfish is kickass. Looking to the basic idea of Maslow's hierarchy of needs we can see that self-fulfillment is at the top. Being a biological creature that has this innate urge to reproduce having kids can help us reach the top of Maslow's hierarchy. There are other paths to the top of the hierarchy such as smokin' a bowl, skydiving, etc. etc. In fact, having a kid is probably not needed to self-actualize. However, it is really less of which particular path people take to happiness and more about the fact that they feel that they reach it in the end. If having kids makes someone happy that is fine, even if it is 'selfish' to you.
I'd like to turn this one back on you. Why are you so hung up on people having 'selfish' reasons for having kids? It really doesn't even effect you at all as a person. More importantly, this is the most self serving thread I have ever read. Everyone is posting their opinions in order to have their voices heard. I mean seriously you selfish assholes find some altruism like Coaster and stop post whoring for attention.
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Lennyk
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: SlashOZ]
#14259616 - 04/08/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Quote:
Kickle said: All actions have a self-serving base to them. Are you trying to find some form of altruism in regards to kids?
I'd like to turn this one back on you. Why are you so hung up on people having 'selfish' reasons for having kids? It really doesn't even effect you at all as a person. More importantly, this is the most self serving thread I have ever read. Everyone is posting their opinions in order to have their voices heard. I mean seriously you selfish assholes find some altruism like Coaster and stop post whoring for attention.
Self serving? This is addressing and issue that involves the creation of a life that one cannot be more exact over.
Selfish behavior makes the world that much worse. Everyone out to get theirs, when really we are a COOPERATIVE SPECIES as a whole.
Such anger, and yet no real opinion to move the discussion.
-------------------- Stealth Lighting Cubensis benefits beyond cluster headaches Mush Extract! (You can even use Vinegar!) Flame your needle in style with a sexy mini butane torch ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What happens in the Romper Room, stays in the Romper Room. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All posts are written by the sex deprived helper monkey Curious George.
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BothHands
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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: Lennyk]
#14259639 - 04/08/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Everyone is posting their opinions in order to have their voices heard.
Didn't you just post your opinion to have your voice heard? Why's that a bad thing? 
Bad day or something?
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Crake
Stranger


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Re: Any unselfish reason to have children? [Re: SlashOZ]
#14259656 - 04/08/11 04:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said:
Quote:
Kickle said: All actions have a self-serving base to them. Are you trying to find some form of altruism in regards to kids?
I'm with kickle here. You are asking someone to come up with at least 1 reason why having kids is altruistic? I understand wanting to know the reasons behind someone wanting a child but to hold them to an impossible standard is just pointless.
I'm of the opinion that having kids is selfish and that being selfish is kickass. Looking to the basic idea of Maslow's hierarchy of needs we can see that self-fulfillment is at the top. Being a biological creature that has this innate urge to reproduce having kids can help us reach the top of Maslow's hierarchy. There are other paths to the top of the hierarchy such as smokin' a bowl, skydiving, etc. etc. In fact, having a kid is probably not needed to self-actualize. However, it is really less of which particular path people take to happiness and more about the fact that they feel that they reach it in the end. If having kids makes someone happy that is fine, even if it is 'selfish' to you.
I'd like to turn this one back on you. Why are you so hung up on people having 'selfish' reasons for having kids? It really doesn't even effect you at all as a person. More importantly, this is the most self serving thread I have ever read. Everyone is posting their opinions in order to have their voices heard. I mean seriously you selfish assholes find some altruism like Coaster and stop post whoring for attention.
...humbled....
 
-------------------- MANGO Snowman wakes before dawn. He lies unmoving, listening to the tide coming in, wave after wave sloshing over the various barricades, wish-wash, wish-wash, the rhythm of heartbeat. He would so like to believe he is still asleep.
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