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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14257682 - 04/08/11 09:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
^ Saying that an "is-ness permeates all" is basically just saying "existence exists." That's not spirit, it's a truism. Existence couldn't possibly not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle




It's not a truism, it's the truth.  It's not just a mental recognition.  You can truly experience this isness as synonymous with being, with your own self, as synonymous with bliss and love.  I've got no way of proving that except to tell you to focus on the feeling "i am" for as long as you can, as often as you can.  But I swear, it's totally true :cool:


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14257939 - 04/08/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
It's not physical though its qualia like you pointed out. Bottom line is it's experience not substance. It's only called physical pain because it is caused by the "physical" external world. The cause is claimed to by physical but by no means is it physical in the sense that it is matter or substance, again it is an experience.
...
Then what is causing the qualia? When you experiencing seeing red is there not an exteral cause of your experience of the red? Materialists say it EMF and it is a substance what do you say is the external cause of the internal qualia?



You're still thinking too dualistically. "It is experience as opposed to matter." What I'm saying is that matter is experience, and experience is matter. Qualia = the physical world, and vice versa- the physical world = qualia. This is monism, and speaking monistically, it doesn't matter if you call it "experience," "qualia," or "matter," it's all the same. Everything being equally constituted, it's up to empirical research to determine the specific makeup of our experiences (i.e. if you cut out part X of the brain, then you will be fucked up in Y way).

I think you're holding to an outdated notion of "substance," too. Matter is no longer thought of as discrete chunks, or hard little balls of "stuff." It's more like forces acting on each other, and probabilities of making certain measurements at certain times. It's all described mathematically, and accurately models the conditions of our experience.

This monistic philosophy is exactly why I find notions of spiritualism unbelievable. Spiritualism automatically implies dualism. If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other. Dualism is required to change that, to make specific things more magical/special than others. Why is the cross holy while some random chunk of wood isn't? Well, obviously the cross is magically imbued with the holy essence of Jesus, which is supposedly some sort of other type of stuff that we cannot measure, hear, touch, etc- that might as well not exist at all. It has a dual essence- matter and spirit. And from my perspective, dualism is just plain wrong.

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Perception is what really exists then would you not agree??



The physical world = perception. But that also means that perception = the physical world. The two are the same (A=B, so B=A). And that is perfectly in line with scientific physicalism.


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Edited by NetDiver (04/08/11 10:57 AM)

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14258098 - 04/08/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ya everything has being, but the same perfume doesn't arise out of everything.  And some perfumes are so amazing that they are referred to as divine or holy, even if ultimately those terms could apply to anything.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14258570 - 04/08/11 01:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The physical world = perception. But that also means that perception = the physical world. The two are the same (A=B, so B=A). And that is perfectly in line with scientific physicalism.



You say all what you know is all that what exists and all that exists is all that you know ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14276086 - 04/12/11 01:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


I think you're holding to an outdated notion of "substance," too. Matter is no longer thought of as discrete chunks, or hard little balls of "stuff." It's more like forces acting on each other, and probabilities of making certain measurements at certain times. It's all described mathematically, and accurately models the conditions of our experience.





So what exactly are you saying here. Are you saying matter is the result of forces acting on one another? and mathematical laws and probabilities? How can these things have an existence of their own apart from matter which is suppose to be all that exists?

You claim a position of monism yet you claim forces and mathematical probabilities exist independently of matter?

You say I'm thinking too dualistically but IMO you are thinking to simplistically. What have you explained? If matter is the result of the forces then how do the forces exist? what do they exist in ? what is cause and what is effect? What is the one thing that exists independently of anything else?

Quote:

This monistic philosophy is exactly why I find notions of spiritualism unbelievable. Spiritualism automatically implies dualism. If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other. Dualism is required to change that, to make specific things more magical/special than others




No, your partial perspective of spiritual truths implies dualism. The advanced spiritual philosophies claim that this world is an illusion, this entire world of duality is an illusion and therefore duality does not exist it merely appears to exist.

Quote:

If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other.




Everything is equal, in reality, but we're not in reality, we're in duality, the big illusion.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14277469 - 04/12/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How did what I say imply that mathematical laws and probability exist apart from matter? They are a part of our ability for abstract thinking (which is just another physical sense, in the same way as other qualia) and just another way of describing our perspective which, again, is reducible to qualia.

All of your questions about "how and why the forces exist" are basically nonsense questions. We're describing what we see as best we can; "forces" are descriptions of what we observe, rather than a replacement for deities. Asking what they're made of and what they exist in doesn't make any sense, because again, it all reduces back to ways of predicting and describing your experience, which is called both qualia and matter.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14280916 - 04/12/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there are more qualias that you can discover as you clear your mind more and more.  This seems pretty logical to me...common sense really


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14293572 - 04/15/11 12:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

How did what I say imply that mathematical laws and probability exist apart from matter? They are a part of our ability for abstract thinking (which is just another physical sense, in the same way as other qualia) and just another way of describing our perspective which, again, is reducible to qualia.




Well you said I seem to have an outdated notion of substance.

Quote:

I think you're holding to an outdated notion of "substance," too. Matter is no longer thought of as discrete chunks, or hard little balls of "stuff." It's more like forces acting on each other, and probabilities of making certain measurements at certain times. It's all described mathematically, and accurately models the conditions of our experience.






What you said here led me to think substance doees not exist apart from the forces but is instead a result of forces acting on one another, hence the forces exist prior to substance. You seem to be describing different states of matter, the forces act on substance and create the different manifestation of matter but substance is still substance. The truth is I really don't understand what the modern notion of substance is because I don't think anyone really has an understanding of what it is apart from our experience of matter. But this is what you are getting at right? Matter does not exist apart from our experience because experience is matter. Still I do not think you understand the real implications of what your theory.

The way I see it is experience is the fundamental existence and the material is a sort of implication of the fact experience exist. The concepts up and down cannot exist without matter and in reality they do not exist, similarly matter does not really exist but is really an abstraction that exists within experience.

Overall I think I understand where you are coming from and really like it. I just think you embrace the "material" side of experience while ignoring experience itself and ignore that it has a completely different dynamic then the physical and is actually the cause of the forces which govern and shape the physical world.

Quote:

This monistic philosophy is exactly why I find notions of spiritualism unbelievable. Spiritualism automatically implies dualism. If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other. Dualism is required to change that, to make specific things more magical/special than others






Because the same substance is manifested in different forms. In it's unmanlfest state it is perception\experience in its manifested state it is the external object of that perception which is full of reactivities. Anyway you are criticizing a very primitive spiritualism, the higher schools of thought all say there is only ONE existence. Thats the whole point, transcend the illusion. Your brain exists within and apart of the manifestation of substance in all its various forms, some are good and some are bad for your brain and your brain controls your experience. Severe your experience from your brain and you are liberated.

Quote:

All of your questions about "how and why the forces exist" are basically nonsense questions. We're describing what we see as best we can; "forces" are descriptions of what we observe, rather than a replacement for deities. 




How is it nonsense? Should we just accept that forces of gravity exist and not inquire as to why they exist? Or should we just be able to describe how they operate instead of why they operate - as you put it.

Quote:

Asking what they're made of and what they exist in doesn't make any sense, because again, it all reduces back to ways of predicting and describing your experience, which is called both qualia and matter.




I agree with that because the forces do not exist IN substance nor are they MADE of substance but instead are caused by PERCEPTION which is not substance.

Anyway I think were both looking at different sides of the same coin here.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14293584 - 04/15/11 12:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's cool. We have a science class at our college called "The Limits of Science"

I haven't personally taken it yet, and my favorite biology doctor is the instructor!

I'll prob check it out after summer.

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: teknix]
    #14293606 - 04/15/11 12:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think that it is an important course and would do you very well.


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Offlinepouihi
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #14294352 - 04/15/11 06:40 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------


"If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."

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