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Invisiblehamloaf
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Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence.
    #14238434 - 04/04/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I understand that senescence is the biological aging of a culture.  My question is if you clone from a cloned culture, will senescence be displayed in the culture from that fruit?  Also, how many times can a culture be transferred from grain to grain with a shake included before senescence will be displayed? 


Thanks in advance for your time in reading my thread and and even bigger thanks for posting.  As always, Happy Shrooming.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleFungal growth
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: hamloaf]
    #14238516 - 04/04/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i asked this question several months back and
did not get a definitive answer. so i don't know.
but i would really like to.
are the fruits the beginning or the end of the cell line?

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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Fungal growth]
    #14238619 - 04/04/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:

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Invisiblehamloaf
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Fungal growth]
    #14238623 - 04/04/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

are the fruits the beginning or the end of the cell line?



Thanks for your reply.  I don't know.  What do you mean, "are the fruits the beginning or end of the cell line?"?


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Offlinebbt0009
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Fungal growth]
    #14238649 - 04/04/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well the only input I have is this. If you take tissue from a cloned fruit you will reach senescence faster than the use of spores to agar...

Look at armillaria solidipes in Oregon. It's over 2,400 years old but hasn't reached senescence. That's why some ppl argue that you shouldn't ever reach it but we all know that's not true.

That's my :twocents:


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Offlinebbt0009
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: hamloaf]
    #14238666 - 04/04/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

hamloaf said:
Quote:

are the fruits the beginning or the end of the cell line?



Thanks for your reply.  I don't know.  What do you mean, "are the fruits the beginning or end of the cell line?"?



He's assuming youre trying to find out the timeline of a supposed isolate.


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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: bbt0009]
    #14238803 - 04/04/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just found this thread, going on at the same time.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14237561/page/1

RR says that you will begin to see Senescence after 5 transfers.

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #14238924 - 04/04/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

as you can see in the thread junkie linked, I'm still trying to understand this as well.

here's a bit from another thread of mine.

Quote:

faceyneck said:

an isolate I've been growing for about a year and a half is now one of the super-slow ones. I'm not sure if it's due to the dry-ass grains or actually senescence, which I was under the impression didn't happen to cubes for a long time.

I've read of cultivators on here - FooMan comes to mind - who grew out a crop, cloned a fruit to jars, grew a crop from that and cloned yet a 'second generation' fruit like that, etc. for over 4 complete cycles before getting bored with the culture and moving on to a new one.

I think I've ran my cultures through about 10 'generations' of grain-to-grain transfers, but I don't think that would yield senescence already. :shrug:




:popcorn: :peace:


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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: bbt0009]
    #14238947 - 04/04/11 10:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That is, is the fruit that shed the spores the beginning of a new cell line, or the end of the last one.
Does a new generation start with the mushroom or the spores?
Or, in effect, can we clone our clones and keep the genetics while avoiding senescence?

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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Fungal growth] * 1
    #14239168 - 04/04/11 10:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Senescence is the biological aging of an organism not just a culture. Human being undergo the same biological process. So does a mushroom fruit body as it ages. I have a hunch that fungi are actually the best place to start when it comes to understanding this process so that we can apply it to human beings. The mushroom life is so fast that it makes it possible to study their biological aging as a model for ours. Especially considering the fact that they are our closest relatives out of of all of the other kingdoms of life on this planet.

I mean come on we friggin' evolved from fugi.....

wow, that was kind of off topic :confused2:

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: bbt0009]
    #14239583 - 04/04/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

s
Quote:

bbt0009 said:
Look at armillaria solidipes in Oregon. It's over 2,400 years old but hasn't reached senescence. That's why some ppl argue that you shouldn't ever reach it but we all know that's not true.





That's because it's never occurred to those people that the patch produces mushrooms every fall, which drop spores to replenish the genetics, forestalling senescence.
RR


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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14239657 - 04/05/11 12:16 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
s
Quote:

bbt0009 said:
Look at armillaria solidipes in Oregon. It's over 2,400 years old but hasn't reached senescence. That's why some ppl argue that you shouldn't ever reach it but we all know that's not true.





That's because it's never occurred to those people that the patch produces mushrooms every fall, which drop spores to replenish the genetics, forestalling senescence.
RR





So when those spores drop, and then germinate. Do the germinated spores join the already present mycelium? Or is an entire new "strain" created? My terminology is probably off, but does that question make sense?

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Offlinedeadmandave
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #14239836 - 04/05/11 01:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So when those spores drop, and then germinate. Do the germinated spores join the already present mycelium? Or is an entire new "strain" created? My terminology is probably off, but does that question make sense?




I get confused about the same thing. It must be that the spores germinate and replenish the genetics of the entire organism, but wouldn't different sections then display different genetics? Or how does the entire mass maintain genetic consistency?

I thought that every cell in any organism always had the same genetic information, if thats true then how does the giant solidipes change genetics? The only way i see this as possible is if the whole organism was actually a collective of thousands of solidipes.

Another thought i had about scenesense was that it occurs once genetic variation is no longer possible. This may happen when all genetic combinations have been exhausted, the dna molecules "normalize"  an reproduction is halted. This would be why hearts, livers, brains, or any organ fails at old age.

To me it makes sense because why would cells continue to propagate without a cause? their previous cause was genetic variation and reproduction but without genetic variation there is no reason for reproduction. 

I have no evidence or even references to back any of this up, just thoughts i've had. I remember Stamets (GG&MM) saying that he experienced scenesense in 10 petri transfers but i do not remember what species he was working with.

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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: hamloaf]
    #14240011 - 04/05/11 02:27 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

In my opinion, there is a terminology problem. Senescence is about the number of cell divisions in a culture and that's why you can't do G2G transfers indefinitely. But there is also another form of senescence, which I'd call simply aging. Generally a 1 year old cloned culture is not as healthy and efficient (in terms of yields) as a 1 month old cloned culture. Properly stored cultures can slow (or even stop) aging though.


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OfflinePrimal Call
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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: LeopardMan]
    #14240128 - 04/05/11 03:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LeopardMan said:
In my opinion, there is a terminology problem.




That's what I'm beginning to think about it.

Like Prof_P and you pointed out, senescence is simply a fancy word for getting old, but when we think of it in terms of over-extending cell lines with abundant divisions resulting in mutants, slow growth, etc, is it even the same thing any more?

On pg 91 in GG&MM, Stamets talks about replicate fading and senescence almost interchangeably. Is rep. fading what people really mean when they say senescence?

In the strictest sense, the word generation applies to mushrooms just like it does to us. Parent to child, etc. (Anonjon & RR just pointed that out to us in that other thread.) But in this context, the word generation has nothing to do with the loss of vitality. It's merely a way to keep track of groups or time.

I forget how new mycology is to us sometimes... so much confusion, and more so because I'm a total beginner.

I'm diggin' this discussion though. Thanks for sharing everyone! :rockon::super:


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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Fungal growth]
    #14246622 - 04/06/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Is senescense similar to, or related to, the loss of telomeres in humans?


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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Trippy_Smurf]
    #14256459 - 04/07/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Could be, this is from wikipedia
Quote:

The telomere shortening mechanism normally limits cells to a fixed number of divisions, and animal studies suggest that this is responsible for aging on the cellular level and sets a limit on lifespans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

telomeres are used during cell replication to "cap" the ends of the chromosomes so the important information is not lost. They limit the cells to a fixed number of divisions  This goes along with my hypothesis that scenesense takes place once the chromosomes have exhausted all possible combinations of replication during meiosis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiosis

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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #14256507 - 04/08/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:

So when those spores drop, and then germinate. Do the germinated spores join the already present mycelium? Or is an entire new "strain" created? My terminology is probably off, but does that question make sense?




Both.  The monokaryotic mycelium joins the existing network, as well as forms new strains which may or may not be compatible.  In addition, spores from adjacent and even distant patches come in on the winds and add fresh genetics.
RR


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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14257248 - 04/08/11 06:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

.

Edited by mattman (01/07/12 02:55 AM)

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Re: Helping hamloaf Understand Senescence. [Re: Trippy_Smurf]
    #14258297 - 04/08/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Trippy_Smurf said:
Is senescense similar to, or related to, the loss of telomeres in humans?




YES!  Nearly all eukaryotes age because of this same process - fungi included!

On a basic level, if you understand telomeres, their function, and what happens to them over time, you understand senescence.  As mentioned above, other genetic errors can also happen due to chromosomal abnormalities or environmental factors.

The only way to 'reset' senescence is to start over from haploid cells (spores.)  Any transfers from that point on are just clones of that organism.

Edited by Sillicybin (04/08/11 12:24 PM)

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