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OfflineMicroppose
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: biologys]
    #14261409 - 04/09/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I stick to my standpoint. Pick one or the other. If you want to choose poo, fine, stick to that as it will give you great fruits. But if you want coir, do the same as you will have equal results. Theres no point in mixing them as they will give you no greater or less yield results. One with an addition of boosters will give you greater results, but coir and poo together will give you no greater yields then as a separate substrate. Coir alone will give you awesome yields, adding poo will give you nothing but added contaminant vulnerability.


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OfflineGrungeman17
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Microppose]
    #14261600 - 04/09/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ok roger, do you or do you not agree with your general cultivation notes, that the more complex a substrate or a compost mixes is with balanced ingredients and the balanced ph, you recieve goodness... definition of that is overall nutrient content of a sub with standing many flushes and sustaining yeilds past 3 flushes. this is just what I gather from my recent read of your notes, definatly not word for word. Just keepin it alive here, thats all...


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Grungeman17]
    #14261918 - 04/09/11 05:43 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grungeman17 said:
ok roger, do you or do you not agree with your general cultivation notes, that the more complex a substrate or a compost mixes is with balanced ingredients and the balanced ph, you recieve goodness...




Yes.  A complex substrate will outperform any single component by itself.  My point above is that coir is the equal of horse manure for P cubensis, based on many years of grows using both. Many city dwellers have posted coir grows that match anything I or anyone else have grown on manure.  Furthermore, cubensis is a primary decomposer, which loves uncomposted substrates and will fruit well on coir, straw, and non-composted manure.  Other species require organisms to partially break down the substrate first, but cubensis does not.

As for multiple flushes, a properly managed substrate will deliver 80% of its total potential in the first two flushes.  Anyone getting more than three flushes has not managed the substrate properly, or it would be spent by then.  Nobody gets three or more closed canopy flushes of wall to wall mushrooms.

As for microbes stimulating more prolific fruiting, I used to be on that bandwagon too until a few more years of experimenting proved that position to be incorrect. Certain species of agaricus for example will not fruit at all on sterilized substrates because they require that microbial interaction. However, this is not the case with cubensis.  In other words, while a sterilized cubensis substrate can be more prone to contamination, it will fruit equally well to a pasteurized substrate with lots of microbes.  This is a change in my position from several years ago based on additional knowledge and experience gained since then.
RR


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Thomas Edison


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Invisibleanonjon
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Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14261969 - 04/09/11 06:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:However, this is not the case with cubensis.  In other words, while a sterilized cubensis substrate can be more prone to contamination, it will fruit equally well to a pasteurized substrate with lots of microbes.  This is a change in my position from several years ago based on additional knowledge and experience gained since then.
RR




Well that's cool to know.

I never doubted that coir was as nutritious as hpoo because obviously hpoo is once digested already, but the nutes in coir are locked down tighter and require more work to get at.

So over a number of flushes I don't doubt that coir might possibly outperform hpoo, but you're saying the results are comparable even in the initial flushes.

From what I've seen the hpoo simply puts out larger fruits on these initial flushes giving you more yield.

It is in the same ballpark tho so I won't split hairs with you.

I take it you dismiss the notion that the microbes in the hpoo could make the digestion of the coir faster / more efficient?


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


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Invisiblecyantific
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: anonjon]
    #14262306 - 04/09/11 09:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Now, if you haven't been a member here long enough to see some of Damion5050s coir grows or LargeDose's coir grows, or many others which are the equal of horse manure, then it would be wise to avoid accusing those of us who have of talking out our ass.
RR"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ive been here for going on 8 years under 3 different ids , long enough to see you flip and flop your stances on several different aspects of cultivation more than a few times , citing your "personal experiences" as concrete data each time ... i guess ill just wait another year until you change your mind about this as well ...

dont get me wrong , i still respect your mycological knowledge and skill in cultivation and continue to draw from and apply that knowledge to my own cultivation methods ... i just think you get carried away with some of your own personal experiences , making some overly definitive statements without enough controlled observation ... theres a reason so many people are disagreeing with this particular observation of yours ... their personal experiences got to count for something dont you think ?

as for sterilized substrates no , i havent tried it yet and honestly have no desire to ... the results i get are always optimal ... i definitely dont see the point of going through the extra hassle of flowhood spawning and rigorously sterile shelving techniques just to get what may or may not be a %5 larger yield in production ... certainly not on a site populated by so many inexperienced cultivators looking to get started in the field ...


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Offlineafrosheen
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: 2jew4u]
    #14262319 - 04/09/11 09:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Honestly I don't even think there's a debate. Both are good, some prefer one over the other for various reasons, some people mix them together. Depends on how you live, your personal experience with either, how you grow, etc.

If I was to cultivate in the country near horse farms, I know I'd be in love with manure because horse stables will practically pay you to come pick it up. They don't care if you're baking a cake with it, just get it off their field. Horses shit A LOT, and it's a problem to have a small amount of land and a large amount of horses constantly crapping on that small area.

But for city people, like it has been said, coir is more stealthy, more convenient, and is adequate. Bonus is that it's simple to work with, provides predictable results, and is very hard to contaminate. When you can throw it in a bucket with boiling water and verm, stir it an hour later, then use it 2-3 hours after that, I don't know how much more convenient it can get. :sherlock2:


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Invisiblecyantific
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: afrosheen]
    #14262377 - 04/09/11 09:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i use both together 50/50 more or less religiously ... though ive recently begun altering the coir somewhat by biodegrading it in hpoo water for 30 or more days to get rid of some of the unwanted lignins and cellulose found in wood base substrates ... and coir is a quasi-wood based substrate ... ive already noticed an increase in colonization time by almost %15 or more ...


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Registered: 04/07/07
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: cyantific]
    #14262400 - 04/09/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No Doubt that coir can be used sucessfully, especially by the experenced




seriously? coir prep is heeeeellllllllaaaaaaaa easier than prepping poo/straw..

pour coir and verm into a bucket..

pour a gallon of boiling water into said bucket..

cover, stir after 1 hour..

cover, use when cool..

doesnt get any easier than that..
Quote:

2jew, it'll state on the package, if its 100% organic, or Trich added..





yup yup.. very plainly, too.. not as many have trich added as you think, though.. at least not out where I am.. :thumbup:


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Registered: 04/07/07
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: cyantific]
    #14262406 - 04/09/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cyantific said:
"Now, if you haven't been a member here long enough to see some of Damion5050s coir grows or LargeDose's coir grows, or many others which are the equal of horse manure, then it would be wise to avoid accusing those of us who have of talking out our ass.
RR"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ive been here for going on 8 years under 3 different ids , long enough to see you flip and flop your stances on several different aspects of cultivation more than a few times , citing your "personal experiences" as concrete data each time ... i guess ill just wait another year until you change your mind about this as well ...

dont get me wrong , i still respect your mycological knowledge and skill in cultivation and continue to draw from and apply that knowledge to my own cultivation methods ... i just think you get carried away with some of your own personal experiences , making some overly definitive statements without enough controlled observation ... theres a reason so many people are disagreeing with this particular observation of yours ... their personal experiences got to count for something dont you think ?

as for sterilized substrates no , i havent tried it yet and honestly have no desire to ... the results i get are always optimal ... i definitely dont see the point of going through the extra hassle of flowhood spawning and rigorously sterile shelving techniques just to get what may or may not be a %5 larger yield in production ... certainly not on a site populated by so many inexperienced cultivators looking to get started in the field ...





**slowly walking out of the room, cautiously closing door**


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Registered: 04/07/07
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: cyantific]
    #14262418 - 04/09/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cyantific said:
i use both together 50/50 more or less religiously ... though ive recently begun altering the coir somewhat by biodegrading it in hpoo water for 30 or more days to get rid of some of the unwanted lignins and cellulose found in wood base substrates ... and coir is a quasi-wood based substrate ... ive already noticed an increase in colonization time by almost %15 or more ...




why are you going through the extra trouble of doing all that? its not needed.. for me, coir and poo colonize in around the same time.. most could go either way.. sometimes, people dont want to play with poo.. other times, they cannot find doodoo to play with..

but there is no reason to soak your coir in poo water for 30 days.. unless you just like wasting time :smile:


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InvisibleMorelman
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo *DELETED* [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #14262423 - 04/09/11 10:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

Reason for deletion: Never again...



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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Morelman]
    #14262427 - 04/09/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Morelman said:
If your coir is properly pasteurized then Trich added is a non-issue.

:2cents:




das es tru


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Offline2jew4u
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: DJYoshaBYD]
    #14262436 - 04/09/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJYoshaBYD said:
Quote:

No Doubt that coir can be used sucessfully, especially by the experenced




seriously? coir prep is heeeeellllllllaaaaaaaa easier than prepping poo/straw..

pour coir and verm into a bucket..

pour a gallon of boiling water into said bucket..

cover, stir after 1 hour..

cover, use when cool..

doesn't get any easier than that..
Quote:

2jew, it'll state on the package, if its 100% organic, or Trich added..





yup yup.. very plainly, too.. not as many have trich added as you think, though.. at least not out where I am.. :thumbup:





most of the time, dont even pasteurize the poo, Just get it from out side, bring it to fill capacity and wallah, haven't had contams. It grows grass some times,but nothing else.

Coir on the other hand,was always getting trich,( but that being said, the kind that was got from the nursery, says that it has it added just read the fine print)  maybe need to try some from a reptile store.


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OfflineDamion5050
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: 2jew4u]
    #14262450 - 04/09/11 10:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You should not get plant/nursery grade coir because most of the time it is added for plants because plants benefit from it..  you need to get pet store grade coir for lizards because it isn't treated with trich..


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Offlinehamloaf
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Morelman]
    #14262463 - 04/09/11 10:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Morelman said:
If your coir is properly pasteurized then Trich added is a non-issue.

:2cents:



No.  I'v purposely used trich fortified coco-coir, bringing it to field capacity first with the boiling water plus bucket tek and then properly pasteurized the coco-coir to see if I could alleviate the trich.  Using a known cloned culture the coir was inoculated with the clean spawn.  Guess what big guy, no dice, didn't do it.


Your best bet when using coir as a bulk substrate material is to use the coco-coir intended for use as a reptile substrate, as per all of the best coir teks on this site prescribe.


--------------------

   
How I Get Stuff done. - My Reference Guide. - My Grows.


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InvisibleMr. Anderson
πριν από το χρόνο κάποιου
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: 2jew4u]
    #14262466 - 04/09/11 10:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:ilold: Wow, this shit just got lame

:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------


Disclaimer: All posts are completely fictional and or for educational purposes only.


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InvisibleDJYoshaBYD
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Mr. Anderson]
    #14262485 - 04/09/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

most of the time, dont even pasteurize the poo, Just get it from out side, bring it to fill capacity and wallah, haven't had contams. It grows grass some times,but nothing else.




how many times did you manage to get away with that.. if we could get away without pasteurizing, then why do we go through the trouble to do it?

Trich is not added "most of the time" to horticultural grade coir. 50/50, if that.. either way, all you gotta do is look at the wrapper, and it will tell you.. but to this day, i have only seen 1 coir brick that had trich added.. from hydro shops or anywhere else.. the only thing is, you have to pay double at pet stores, as opposed to a hydro shop, that will only charge about 3 per brick.. checking the hydro shop for bricks sans trich is always a good idea, simply because you can get double the coir for the same price as at a pet store..


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InvisibleMorelman
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo *DELETED* [Re: hamloaf]
    #14262490 - 04/09/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

Reason for deletion: Never again...



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Offlinehamloaf
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo [Re: Morelman]
    #14262547 - 04/09/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DJYoshaBYD said:
Trich is not added "most of the time" to horticultural grade coir. 50/50, if that.. either way, all you gotta do is look at the wrapper, and it will tell you.. but to this day, i have only seen 1 coir brick that had trich added.. from hydro shops or anywhere else.. the only thing is, you have to pay double at pet stores, as opposed to a hydro shop, that will only charge about 3 per brick.. checking the hydro shop for bricks sans trich is always a good idea, simply because you can get double the coir for the same price as at a pet store..




This is just incorrect and poor information.  It's actually horticultural grade coco-coir that gets fortified with trichoderma spores because trichoderma spores are beneficial to the root systems of plants by eating un beneficial microscopic organism that compete with the roots of the plant for nutrition.


It doesn't always say it's trich spore fortified on the package either.  That's what lead to all the experiments I ran with horticulture grade coco-coir blocks (BEETSPEAT BRAND).  THe reason for the use of this shady coir brand was the same as yours.  To save a few bucks.  You get what you pay for.  If you want the best materials for use with what ever in life, you have to pay for them.


Quote:

So in essence, you're saying that proper pasteurization of coir
doesn't kill Trich spores.

Please tell us why....




Again no.  I'm not saying in essence proper pasteurization doesn't kill trich spores.  :smirk:


What I personally concluded is that coco-coir fortified with trich spores, inteneded for plant growth just has way too many trich spores added to it that the pasteurization process just can't rid the coir of all the trich spores added.


--------------------

   
How I Get Stuff done. - My Reference Guide. - My Grows.


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InvisibleMorelman
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Re: Coco Coir vs Horse Poo *DELETED* [Re: hamloaf]
    #14262560 - 04/09/11 10:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Morelman

Reason for deletion: Never again...



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