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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14252062 - 04/07/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a 'spritual' person is not happier or wiser or more moral or less fearful than a non-spiritual person, then I contend the difference is meaningless and insignificant.




You haven't met the right spiritual people yet...i can tell you, spiritual people are happier.  i'm positively joyful right now. Srsly!!!!


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14252120 - 04/07/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You haven't meet the right non-spiritual people.  If you alienate them, then you aren't gonna get to know them and know that they get along just fine.

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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14252323 - 04/07/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Spirituality is the exploration of one's self, and all experiences therein and inherently subjective.  When approached from the objective extreme, it is impossible to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this experience.  Our methods of science work very well for investigating the physical world, but fall short of the realm of personal experience.  This system has brought us great revelations about our physical world and with it great technological advances.  Since this system has brought us so much, people think it will bring an explanation to everything.  When something cannot be explained by the system, those with the most faith in it will disregard it.  The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations. 

God will never be found on the lab bench from empirical data because it resides within our own experience and consciousness, which inherently can't be measured.  Some will reject this experience because it cannot be explained empirically.  Others will accept it as a part of the conscious experience and not look for an explanation where it cannot be given.




Here is a couple relevant quotes.:thumbup:

"Medical materialism seems indeed a good appellation for the too simple minded system of thought we are considering. Medical materialism finishes up Saint Paul by calling his vision on the road to Damascus a discharging lesion of the optical cortex, he being an epileptic. It snuffs out Saint Teresa as an hysteric, Saint Francis of Assisi as an hereditary degenerate..." -William James.

"The observations from psychedelic therapy and other forms of deep experiential work suggest an even more radical reformulation of the relationship between the human personality and spirituality. According to the new data, spirituality is an intrinsic property of the psyche that emerges quite spontaneously when the process of self exploration reaches sufficient depths....The individual who connects with these levels of his or her psyche automatically develops a new worldview, within which spirituality represents a natural, essential, and absolutely vital element of existence. In my experience, a transformation of this kind has occurred without exception in a wide range of individuals, including stubborn atheists, skeptics, cynics, Marxist philosophers, and positivistically oriented scientists."
-Stan Grof


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14252645 - 04/07/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
You haven't meet the right non-spiritual people.  If you alienate them, then you aren't gonna get to know them and know that they get along just fine.




i know plenty of happy people that don't think of themselves as spiritual.  Buuuut the thing is, I can identify that the reasons for their happiness are what I would consider spiritual reasons, though they might not put it that way.  And, many of these people, when times get bad and they don't understand why, will turn towards spirituality for help at some point in their lives, being well adjusted individuals and all.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14252782 - 04/07/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Again, it depends entirely on your definition of "spirituality."

Sure, everyone could use a deep feeling of awe and reverence at the mysteries of the Universe from time to time, but that does not necessarily entail believing in spirits, fairies, unicorns, ESP, astral projection, etc. It's perfectly possible to be happy without deluding yourself.


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14252799 - 04/07/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i really think the interpretation of the word "spiritual" is as subjective as spirituality itself


to me, science is spiritual; the desire to know

playing music is spiritual; there's just no explaining it. for me this has nothing to do with god or any concepts really. its just playing music

mathematics is spiritual. how could it not be? i guess in my interpretation of the word, anything that is factual is "spiritual"

i just have shifted into a tendency to call it "spiritual", because sometimes you just become grateful and humbled to be alive despite the fact that it's a challenge.
So for some people, the word is just an acknowledgment or respect for the forces that be (which, btw, is everything science is based around).




and "spiritual" is often the easiest alternative of a word for those who have shunned religion yet are awed by life.

It's not even really about what is believed. Well... to some, it is :seriousbusiness:


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14252811 - 04/07/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree.  Spirtuality necessarily entails spirits, ghosts, ESP and the like.  Simply acknowledging, pondering and reconciling with the ineffable qualities of the human experience and existence is not sufficient to being spiritual.


Quote:

The English word spirit (from Latin spiritus "breath") has many differing meanings and connotations, all of them relating to a non-corporeal substance contrasted with the material body.




Spirituality necessarily entails the spirit, a non-corporeal substance.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14252859 - 04/07/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am." And I feel like people who are happy are very in touch with this, they know who they are and have strong hearts. Not the kind of people to go against their principles.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14253199 - 04/07/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter if you call it "mind," "matter," "chocolate pudding," or "fjsdlfsejlrwej."






O.K but how do you annul contrariety between substance and mind? Sure it's easy to just make "substance" a synonym for existence but what have you explained?

The definition of substance is matter, matter has weight and location. Experience does not have a weight or any of the other attributes of matter. They are different. A materialist believes matter explains experience while I believe experience explains matter. I think you are ignoring oversimplifying by just saying "duh substance means existence so obviously everything is substance." You easily conclude they are the same by ignoring the profound difference between the two.

You either have to explain how substance causes perception or you have to explain how perception causes matter.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14253557 - 04/07/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am."




No its not.

I suspect you are just redefining the word so that you can call yourself spiritual.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #14253559 - 04/07/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Neither one causes the other. That's the point. They are the same. Literally everything is subjective experience, and subjective experience in my mind is directly equivalent to physical sensation. Pain is frequently described as a physical sensation- in my view thoughts are sensations in exactly the same way as pains or itches or tastes. They're something you just experience without understanding.

If you don't believe me, try describing what it means to "know" something. It's just something you feel or intuitively grasp. Try to describe what it's like to be in pain- same thing. These are what philosophers call "qualia," or raw feelings.

So, literally everything is reducible to qualia, which are just sensations. If pain is physical, so are thoughts. This is exactly what you'd expect to see in a monistic Universe. Whether you call pains (or thoughts) physical or mental is entirely a matter of preference. Every experience has a corresponding brain state, too, so whatever our brains are made of, our experience is made of as well.

Perception/experience is the physical world, yes- but that doesn't mean perception creates the physical world. The two are just equivalent. That also means that the physical world is perception (If A = B, then B = A), which is exactly what physicalist theory proposes.

Edited by NetDiver (04/07/11 03:00 PM)

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14253682 - 04/07/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

. If pain is physical, so are thoughts




It's not physical though its qualia like you pointed out. Bottom line is it's experience not substance. It's only called physical pain because it is caused by the "physical" external world. The cause is claimed to by physical but by no means is it physical in the sense that it is matter or substance, again it is an experience.
Quote:

So, literally everything is reducible to qualia, which are just sensations.



Then what is causing the qualia? When you experiencing seeing red is there not an exteral cause of your experience of the red? Materialists say it EMF and it is a substance what do you say is the external cause of the internal qualia?


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14253712 - 04/07/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Perception/experience is the physical world, yes- but that doesn't mean perception creates the physical world.




Yeah I can agree with that. It is similar ot how ,atter does not create space but space IS matter, space is a concept which is a by-product of the existence of matter and the "physical" is a by-product of the existence of perception. Perception is what really exists then would you not agree??


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14253827 - 04/07/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Spirituality necessarily entails the spirit, a non-corporeal substance




ok. the first time i smoked weed, I experience consciousness itself as a non-corporeal substance, or spirit. I had never realized before that that is the nature of everything. My aim is to discover more about this, what i am, and embody it through music. That is my spirituality.


so, it doesn't have anything to do with ghosts, gods, demons, angels, ufos, or anything a rational person could find ridiculous. Although, you might call it ESP, being that it involves experiencing things beyond our usual senses, but that's just semantics again


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: the bizzle]
    #14253845 - 04/07/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think that a general non-corporeal substance has very much to do with ghosts, gods, demons and angles.  They are the quintessential non-corporeal substances.

What you describe, I would classify as philosophy not spirituality.

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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14254790 - 04/07/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:
But why the fuck would you call everything mind? That is ridiculous for the context it has taken in language. It means something beyond the physical.

Matter has been defined as it was observed.



You could just as easily call everything mind, as all observation that defines matter has been done through the lens of our perception.

Monistic idealism, properly understood, does not imply the existence of ESP, telepathy, or other magical bullshit. If literally everything in the Universe is mind, than no one part has greater influence over the whole than any other. That's why it's a question of semantics. If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter if you call it "mind," "matter," "chocolate pudding," or "fjsdlfsejlrwej."

I just choose to call it "physical" because that's the term used most often in empirical research these days.




Yes, you are technically right. But why would you be against materialism? Matter is the accepted term used in science, so I don't see how you can call it stupid because it is technically semantics, as is all language.


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14254875 - 04/07/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am."




No its not.

I suspect you are just redefining the word so that you can call yourself spiritual.




i bet it has more to do with the context in which the term was applied in his experience prior to this forum


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14256416 - 04/07/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am."




No its not.

I suspect you are just redefining the word so that you can call yourself spiritual.




Nope lol, I don't want to be considered spiritual, the word really has developed quite organically in my life. And being really is spirit, keep your mind quiet and focus on your being in the moment and that's it right there.  It's the base consciousness, the simple isness that permeates all.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14257356 - 04/08/11 07:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

^ Saying that an "is-ness permeates all" is basically just saying "existence exists." That's not spirit, it's a truism. Existence couldn't possibly not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14257634 - 04/08/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
^ Saying that an "is-ness permeates all" is basically just saying "existence exists." That's not spirit, it's a truism. Existence couldn't possibly not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle




yes, but to many, this is a foundation of "spirituality"

why do i consider myself a "spiritual" person? simply acknowledging that there even is an "isness"




the literal definition of "spirituality", (which many of you seem to be equating wth religion and/or belief in ufos and ghosts) is not as important in terms of society, as contextual meaning




here is something I heard on TV yesterday:

"we had a spiritual conversation.

i told him he can believe in himself

YOU HAVE the power to overcome obesity"


it is involving personal discovery and most importantly in this example, willpower. Some apparently call this philosophy, some call it spirituality. :shrug:

i guess you call it spirituality when you wanna talk about it in a less debate-oriented environment? :confused:


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