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Offlineoxalic32
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Gurus
    #14253007 - 04/07/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

How many Gurus do you suppose are absolute scam artists?

They get tons of followers, fame and fortune.

They never have to prove they can really do anything. They live in mystery and promise they can end all of your sadness and show you enlightenment. If whatever they say doesn't work they will just say you need more time. They may even say you need another life time.

I read a lot about the guru Osho. I like a lot of what he has to say, but he is a rather controversial guru

Quote:

During his residence in Rajneeshpuram Osho dictated three books under the influence of nitrous oxide administered to him by his private dentist: Glimpses of a Golden Childhood, Notes of a Madman and Books I Have Loved.[121] Sheela later stated that Osho took sixty milligrams of Valium each day and was addicted to nitrous oxide.[122][123][124] Osho denied these charges when questioned about them by journalists




Quote:

On 23 October 1985 a federal grand jury issued a thirty-five-count indictment charging Osho and several other disciples with conspiracy to evade immigration laws.




Quote:

The Oregon years saw an increased emphasis on Osho's prediction that the world might be destroyed by nuclear war or other disasters sometime in the 1990s.[102] Osho had said as early as 1964 that "the third and last war is now on the way" and frequently spoke of the need to create a "new humanity" to avoid global suicide.




Quote:

On 28 October 1985 Osho and a small number of sannyasins accompanying him were arrested aboard a rented Learjet at a North Carolina airstrip; according to federal authorities the group was en route to Bermuda to avoid prosecution.[131] $58,000 in cash, 35 watches and bracelets worth $1 million were found on the aircraft.[130][132][133] Osho had by all accounts been informed neither of the impending arrest nor the reason for the journey.[129]




Quote:

Osho said that he was "the rich man's guru" and that material poverty was not a genuine spiritual value.[177] He had himself photographed wearing sumptuous clothing and hand-made watches[178] and, while in Oregon, drove a different Rolls-Royce each day – his followers reportedly wanted to buy him 365 of them, one for each day of the year.[94] Publicity shots of the Rolls-Royces were sent to the press.[177][179] They may have reflected both his advocacy of wealth and his desire to provoke American sensibilities, much as he had enjoyed offending Indian sensibilities earlier.[177][180]




After reading all of this i wonder how spiritual Osho was. He was a very very mysterious guy. Was he just spinning a delicate web of lies to take advantage of those who need help? Do you think the Buddha would drive a rolls royce if his followers bought him one?

The problem i see with Gurus is they get things in return for their service. They are not selfless. They often receive rewards for their teachings and i see this as a problem.

The Buddha instructs us that all we need is ourself. You cannot lie to yourself. You cannot mislead yourself. However if you follow a Guru who appears innocent but is secretly abusing his status you could walk down the wrong path.

Also many people who met Osho said he was bat shit insane. Just absolutely crazy. Apparently he was addicted to Valium according to a number of sources. I don't see how someone "enlightened" would get addicted to Valium. Your average person doesn't fall into that hole.

What do you guys think? Do real Gurus exist? I have never encountered a true Guru. Many of the most famous & respected Gurus are reveal to be frauds. In today's age how can you know who/what is legitimate?

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Gurus [Re: oxalic32]
    #14253058 - 04/07/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think all of them are scams. The "miracles" they perform can be replicated by any stage magician. Take a look at Sai Baba for instance- supposedly a divine healer, who immediately went to a western-style hospital as soon as his health was in danger.

Give me a constant supply of nitrous and I could dictate books on enlightenment, too. :yesnod:


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OfflineThePhilosophizer
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Re: Gurus [Re: oxalic32]
    #14253090 - 04/07/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

oxalic32 said:
The problem i see with Gurus is they get things in return for their service. They are not selfless. They often receive rewards for their teachings and i see this as a problem.




I think that right there answers your question. I do believe they are out there, though, just not well-known or money-driven. I've never met a guru per say, but I've met a few spiritual people who have had considerable impact on my life. None of them were famous, nor rich, nor asked for anything in return for the wisdom they shared. Seems like in this day and age money and fame are two key ways of propagating a message to the masses, so having a famous guru would kind of be a contradiction. But what if a truly humble guru wanted to spread his message worldwide? Perhaps he would conform to the society's ways (speak their language, so to speak) for the sole purpose of spreading his message and once he's well-known enough, he'd lose the disguise and show his true selflessness. I have yet to run into such a person.


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:pinkshroom:  :regularshroom:  :mushroomgrow: :greenshroom: :stinkyshroom: :scaryshroom: :mushdance: :dancingshroom: :cubie:  :mushroom2:  :supershroom:      :muahaha:

<<<<<<<<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>

A game without challenges is boring. It is possible to live a happy optimistic life without being in denial about all the shit that goes on all around.
You just gotta get up and dance with the fire instead of moping about it. Be thankful for your problems.
Without them, your life would be a fucking bore.
But don't make it all about the problems. There are magnificent wonders in this world worth living for :wink:

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Gurus [Re: ThePhilosophizer]
    #14253194 - 04/07/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think of gurus a lot like I think of politicians. Those who should be running this country have no desire to run the country. Those who want to be gurus have no place being gurus. Yet in both cases, those who want to run the country end up in that position, and those who want to be gurus end up in that position. And I tend to look at them mostly as masters of rhetoric.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Gurus [Re: NetDiver]
    #14253314 - 04/07/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well put Kickle.

Where there is demand there will always be a supply. Considering how incredibly difficult and therefore rare it is to be genuinely spiritually advanced and combining that with the lack of critical thinking and knowledge within the masses it is no surprise false gurus are everywhere. It takes an artist to identify a masterpeice work of art and the same applies to spirituality.

Quote:

I think all of them are scams




That is absurd, funny how you use Sai Baba who is an obvious con as your example. When judging people such as Aurobindo, Maharshi, Swami Paramananda, Meher Baba, etc you are better off arguing that they are dillusional then to say they are willingly scamming people since most of them renounced material posessions and lived a life of servitude to humanity. Doesn't att up for me.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

Edited by soldatheero (04/07/11 02:02 PM)

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Offlineoxalic32
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Re: Gurus [Re: soldatheero]
    #14254186 - 04/07/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Some of them do seem legitimately delusional. Like maybe they don't know they're scamming people.

I wonder how hard it is to find a legitimate Guru. How do you know when you can trust a Guru? I've heard of Gurus having secret meetings with followers and talking them into sex to somehow promote spirituality.

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OfflineTony
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Re: Gurus [Re: soldatheero]
    #14254250 - 04/07/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I find the most credible gurus are the ones whose disbelief exceeds my own disbelief, because they are the living examples that show that going deeper into disbelief actually frees you from cynicism. It might not give you the right way to live, but it is such a sweet harmony to see that that doesn't really matter. The best solution to suffering my mind has ever come up with is suicide. I could carry out that idea if I really believed in it, but then I see all these wonderful people who are totally cool with impermanence disbelief and everything.

That's the gist of it. No one can give you happiness or freedom, least of all the perfect lifestyle, but the confidence with which some high-vibrating beings express their being here, in space, can inspire your own disbelief to grow toward its full blossom. Just don't stop at Osho if he isn't your type. No one represents the all better than the All.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Gurus [Re: Tony]
    #14254329 - 04/07/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i find tibetan buddhist gurus to be particularly selfless/legit/etc

it's when gurus try and do their own thing that it often seems to be based around their egos, imo


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Offlineoxalic32
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Re: Gurus [Re: deff]
    #14254518 - 04/07/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The best solution to suffering my mind has ever come up with is suicide.




This is assuming there aren't consequences to that action. If you believe in Karma then suicide will reap you some horrid Karma.

The ultimate punishment for suicide would be making the person re-live the same life until they stop running away from it.

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OfflineTony
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Re: Gurus [Re: oxalic32]
    #14255897 - 04/07/11 09:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah I wasn't saying that it's a good idea in any way, especially to escape something. It may seem like an easy way out after some half-baked thinking, but a deeper knowing doesn't buy it at all. Disbelief goes a long way.

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OfflineNastyDHL
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Re: Gurus [Re: oxalic32]
    #14256221 - 04/07/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think many are

the point is to truly put someone back on to their self and their true divine nature transcending the ego and the ape mind enough to feel the oneness of the heart. unfortunately even gurus are still apes and they still have ape minds even if their mental construct of reality has a very evolved structural understanding of the ape mind that their reality is being filtered through--so unless they stay so much in the moment and so aware and so conscious to transcend fearful subconscious filters of reality then eventually their ego will do its usual sneaky clever thing and find a way to work its way into the picture in a way that is socially competing for an ever higher spot in the hierarchy it can achieve subtly enough to not draw attention to its existence.

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Offlinelolwut
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Re: Gurus [Re: NastyDHL]
    #14256596 - 04/08/11 12:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Even the wise man dwells in the fools paradise, I think the thing with most gurus is they reach a certain level and find people want to talk to them, then realise theres no set way of doing anything. Some then go and try/not try to get followers, most just accumulate money as they go on, just like normal life. They cop a lot of projections though - like Ram Dass vs. McKenna, they look like their battling each other but its two different ways to point to the same place.

Most commercial gurus I find are just telling people what they want to hear in order to make money. Of course in order to know what people want to hear, you must be a guru in the first place, so its through talking/telling their story and trying to help that they get the projections (like this thread). A real guru wouldnt care about much at all but if they are motivated by compassion (which you have to be in order to be termed a "guru" as in reach certain states) they would generally go and do good.


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Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth, and taste...

:haha:

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Gurus [Re: soldatheero]
    #14257365 - 04/08/11 07:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
That is absurd, funny how you use Sai Baba who is an obvious con as your example. When judging people such as Aurobindo, Maharshi, Swami Paramananda, Meher Baba, etc you are better off arguing that they are dillusional then to say they are willingly scamming people since most of them renounced material posessions and lived a life of servitude to humanity. Doesn't att up for me.



Well, I'm speaking of those who claim to perform miracles and whatnot. Those who just give advice and guidance I have no problems with.


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OfflineForever White Belt
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Re: Gurus [Re: NetDiver]
    #14258899 - 04/08/11 02:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I guess I know what you mean by guru... Their are a lot of these people...

But I know a guy who I am still a direct student of that I would call a guru... He is just a bad ass bottom line...

He has shown me things that I will never be able to explain. I have seen him do things that are incredible, I mean the stuff you only see in videos of Shaolin Monks...

I could show you a picture of the guy it would not do you any good I mean he is just a man...

He has flaws, he is not perfect but he is one of the greatest men I have ever met in my life and if it was not for him I would not be half of what I am today.

For one thing say what you want of Sri Sathya Sai Baba who is one of my grandmasters through my Sifu... If you have not met him or trained under him than you can really know nothing of the real spiritual power this man has...

Ask me anything!!! This man who I consider myself blessed and lucky to ever have met has transformed me and taught me things that I could never repay him for and he never asked me for a dollar.

Actually in the time that I have known him he has never owned a car, always rented a room or lived for free with a student even to this day... He has moved from my home town in Santa Maria CA to Bakersfield CA then to Indiana then to South Virgina and now he lives in Kentucky!!! So he is a true free soul and has NEVER asked me to call him teacher or Sifu just a Brother of the Light...

For real this guy can do AMAZING things and I can vouch for him!! He vouches for Sai Baba and so then so I must also... I can share some of his work with you even maybe to change your heart or mind on how you feel about what many people have tried to call a sham or a trick...

But yea they are out there!! I met this guy  standing outside a park at the Veterans Memorial Hall across the street from the local jr. High school of El Camino doing a Tai Chi slow  form when in 1998 when I was 14 or so.

Proud to say that I can call him right now and ask him anything!!

If you are really looking for a guru what are you looking for?? Seriously??


--------------------
The Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.
      J. B. S. Haldane

The quest of the absolute leads into the four-dimensional world.
Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington

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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Gurus [Re: Forever White Belt]
    #14260586 - 04/08/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There are a lot of really developed individuals out there, I don't know how many but I've met a few dozen who were obviously developed without claiming to be.

Anyone who claims to be a "guru" though, is a fraud.
Only a fraud would seek to make a living off spirituality.

The individuals I've met who are anything different than ordinary, are all working class and artists.


For every genuine spiritual seeker there are a thousand fraudulent gurus and three thousand slaves looking for a master. Personally I won't go past very basic conversation with someone unless I have a lot of respect for them and think they're sincere in their efforts.


--------------------
Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.

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Invisiblep4kSouL
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Re: Gurus [Re: Forever White Belt]
    #14261527 - 04/09/11 12:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Forever White Belt said:

But I know a guy who I am still a direct student of that I would call a guru... He is just a bad ass bottom line...





Can you be more specific. Please explain what kind of experiences you have had with this guy?

Edited by p4kSouL (04/09/11 12:59 AM)

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OfflineForever White Belt
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Re: Gurus [Re: p4kSouL]
    #14262255 - 04/09/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Quote:

Forever White Belt said:

But I know a guy who I am still a direct student of that I would call a guru... He is just a bad ass bottom line...





Can you be more specific. Please explain what kind of experiences you have had with this guy?




For starters this man has an exceptional skill in combat science. His theory and practical application in the martial science of Tai Chi and Shaolin Kung fu are unbelievable... What I mean is this guy when you look at him looks like the last person in the world that would know how to fight... But trust me he is hard as iron and flexible as a spring pole...

Now in my school we would practice two or three hours a day monday-friday very hardcore stuff- 1 or 2 hours of standing meditation followed by either combat for another hour or the Tai Chi slow forms.

But the real secrets lay in the Sunday class where he would lead guided sitting meditations for hours on end... I remember some classes going for as many as three hours 1hr for standing 1hr for sitting 1hr for laying down


His ability to heal people is unreal, not only have I seen him heal and transform injuries some students were born with but I have personally felt the just awesome amount of energy he can release from his hands to heal me after being tossed on my head by him and my older brother in class...

Just a couple examples... But all the good stuff he has shown me has to do with the inner worlds and places he has brought me to through teaching me how to breath and sit.
There were times in class where it was eerie how he could tell what I was experiencing. Without going into too much detail I have seen things in meditation and felt things that I could never understand without him and he has had the answer to everything I wanted to know through the years...

This reminds me of a story my older brother told me... Do you know what the caduceus is??


--------------------
The Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.
      J. B. S. Haldane

The quest of the absolute leads into the four-dimensional world.
Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington

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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Gurus [Re: oxalic32]
    #14293328 - 04/14/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

How many Gurus do you suppose are absolute scam artists?



Tons. I eat those motherfuckers for breakfast. I would know. Yummy!

Quote:

They get tons of followers, fame and fortune.

They never have to prove they can really do anything. They live in mystery and promise they can end all of your sadness and show you enlightenment. If whatever they say doesn't work they will just say you need more time. They may even say you need another life time.





To follow a guru is error I feel

Quote:

I read a lot about the guru Osho. I like a lot of what he has to say, but he is a rather controversial guru




I question just how much you read and how deep you went with it.


Quote:

After reading all of this i wonder how spiritual Osho was. He was a very very mysterious guy. Was he just spinning a delicate web of lies to take advantage of those 




I'll never take you seriously again after having accused this dude of just taking advantage of those who needed help. If you have a SLIVER of discernment you see that is clearly not the case. Take a couple hours watch a few videos. Yeah he is just really pulling their chains alright.........


Quote:

The problem i see with Gurus is they get things in return for their service. They are not selfless. They often receive rewards for their teachings and i see this as a problem.



*crickets*

Quote:

The Buddha instructs us that all we need is ourself. You cannot lie to yourself. You cannot mislead yourself.



way to represent the essence of Buddha there mate

Quote:

However if you follow a Guru who appears innocent but is secretly abusing his status you could walk down the wrong path.



If I folow a guru who appears innocent but is abusing me secretly I *could* walk down the wrong path. I COULD walk down the wrong path. Interesting.

Quote:

Also many people who met Osho said he was bat shit insane


.
LOL *sees a huge mirror in osho*

Quote:

Just absolutely crazy. Apparently he was addicted to Valium according to a number of sources.



what if he was? so? you set the fucking rules for what an enlightened dude can do, is that so mate?

Quote:

I don't see how someone "enlightened" would get addicted to Valium. Your average person doesn't fall into that hole.



oy

Quote:

What do you guys think? Do real Gurus exist?



maybe

Quote:

I have never encountered a true Guru. Many of the most famous & respected Gurus are reveal to be frauds. In today's age how can you know who/what is legitimate?




ask them to show you their penis? i dunno


--------------------

Oh Snapz

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Gurus [Re: synapz]
    #14293667 - 04/15/11 12:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I would suppose 93%

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Offlinesynapz
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Re: Gurus [Re: teknix]
    #14294386 - 04/15/11 07:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

you know, I really feel like most of the gurus have no clue they're coming from a pathetically low level in terms of 'truth realization' (odd sounding, but it's not the label itself I am referring to, but literally one's 'level' of consciousness) they 'stop way short' basically and then jerk off to themselves in the mirror about how awesome and totally cool they are

I literally could off the cuff tear to shreds any new-age gurus video and them look flat out fucking retarded, with complete ease. check out what i did to my first victim, scott kiloby. lol so fun.  honestly if my video ever get somewhat popular these gurus that I haven't fucked with yet are gonna have night terrors. i actually believe this. you cleanup bullshit by clotting the bleeding, FIRST and foremost. You deal with the results of it after the wound is cleaned uo.

First things first eh?


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Oh Snapz

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