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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: DieCommie]
#14252319 - 04/07/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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BlueCoyote said:
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Doc_T said: On a quantum level, your atoms don't stay the same for very long. You aren't a 'thing' so much as a 'pattern' or 'condition'.
So, is it necessary to destroy the original body to fluidly 'transfer' consciousness into the copy then ?
I don't think so. Or if it is necessary, you can immediately re-create a copy there in the booth, as if you've never left.
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DieCommie said: Consciousness doesn't get transfered in that its not a separate thing. Its a property of the configuration.
Well that's the question now, isn't it?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: NetDiver]
#14252410 - 04/07/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter said:
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quinn said: what is 'psychological continuity'?
Your personal narrative; knowledge of how you got where you are.
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do you mean would 'your' subjective experience continue? no. how could it? two other subjective experiences would exist tho.
Seems like you're using "subjective experience" synonymously with "soul." Our perception is made of material building blocks (as well as our memories, which is what's most important in defining who we are)- so assemble those building blocks and you have the same identity. A subject with identical memories to yours is you- just shows how blurrily defined "you" are to begin with.
no. you are not the building blocks. because the 'building blocks' have a particular relation to everything else
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if i threw a brick thru the teleporter would the brick still exist? no. it was destroyed. but two other bricks would exist.

Bricks don't experience, and anyway, it's your perception which is defining it as the "same" brick or a "different" one. Your perception is just as physical as the brick, though; if a perception was created with identical memories, that was unable to distinguish itself from the original "you," then it would be you.
no they are different bricks because there are two of them at different locations. therefore they are not the same. stop being so narrow everyone in what defines a 'thing' and look beyond the thing to its position in the universe...
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
#14252794 - 04/07/11 12:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Doc_T said:
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DieCommie said: Consciousness doesn't get transfered in that its not a separate thing. Its a property of the configuration.
Well that's the question now, isn't it?
Not much of a question if you ask me. You either have faith in a separate ever-lasting or finite soul, or you dont. If you do then you can believe whatever you want because that is how faith works. If you dont, then you realize that the soul as well as consciousness is an emergent property, a property of the configuration. So what is the question?
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: quinn]
#14252831 - 04/07/11 12:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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quinn said: no. you are not the building blocks. because the 'building blocks' have a particular relation to everything else
That makes no sense. I can get up and walk from point X to point Y without thinking of myself as a different person, which means the configuration of my atoms at point Y is equally valid to the configuration at point X. The difference with the teleporter machine is just that it cuts out the walking part.
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no they are different bricks because there are two of them at different locations. therefore they are not the same. stop being so narrow everyone in what defines a 'thing' and look beyond the thing to its position in the universe...
You stop thinking of human consciousness as so special and immaterial.
The brick has no perspective; the question of whether or not it's the "same" brick is meaningless. The only way it's the same or different is if there's a human there to define it as such, based on the arbitrary definitions of "same" and "different" that we come up with.
We humans are also objects, we just happen to be objects with the capability for self reference; if there is something that has all of my memories, but simply finds itself in a different location, then it would not be able to tell the difference between the body that died and the body that was reborn. You are nothing more than the sum of your memories, which exist as information in your brain; information that is fairly flexible as to its location. I can get up and walk around (change my location) without the information being destroyed, despite the fact that the quantum particles that make up my body are constantly popping in and out of existence.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: DieCommie]
#14253621 - 04/07/11 02:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Consciousness doesn't get transfered in that its not a separate thing. Its a property of the configuration.
I don't get why so many struggle with this obvious fact, except perhaps they are stuck in ancient paradigms.
Let's forget people for a second and teleport a box. Height (a property) is NOT transferred. Yet the reconstructed box will have the same height as the original.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: quinn]
#14253709 - 04/07/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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no they are different bricks because there are two of them at different locations
We have covered this quite cleary ALREADY. Only those ignorant in physics make the loudest noise. ALL ATOMS OF THE SAME TYPE ARE IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY. Got it?
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14253868 - 04/07/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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deCypher said: Suppose there exists a teleportation device such that when you enter it, it simultaneously destroys the atoms composing your body and recreates them at some other location. You can enter a teleporter here on Earth, for example, and from your viewpoint you will instantly be on Mars if you chose to have your body reconstituted there. Let us accept this premise for the purposes of this thought experiment.
Now, suppose the teleporter is altered in the following fashion: your original body is still destroyed atom by atom, but instead of reconstituting ONE copy of your body in another location, it now instantaneously reconstitutes TWO copies in two different locations, say Mars and the Moon. You step into the Earth teleporter, and two duplicates of you walk out; one on Mars and one on the Moon. Each will claim to be you and will have the exact same memories, personalities, and body as you did. More importantly, each will have equal validity to claim to be you from an outside perspective.
But let us examine this process from the subjective perspective of your personal experience: you walk into the Earth teleporter, experiencing the sight of the incredible machine and feeling your toes move against the interior surface of your boots. But what will your subjective experience be like AFTER you press the button to teleport yourself into the two duplicate copies? Will your experience suddenly shift to Mars, leaving the Moon version of you a fraudulent impostor who merely pretends to be you? Will your experience suddenly shift to the Moon instead, and a similar imposter will instantaneously appear on the Moon? Or will your consciousness become split into two, leaving you to simultaneously experience both Moon events and Mars events? Or will something entirely different occur?
Plz discuss. 
WTF?
Your questions are irrelevant, because as you described, body gets destroyed. You do not experience anything beyond collapsing into billions of atoms. What happens after that, are two SEPARATE experiences that have no longer nothing to do with each other. You will continue feeling in two different beings, just like right now you actually live in six billion beings, because each one of them has a "self", there is just no universal self, so there is no universal feel or interraction that creates mutual experience.
These will be two separate beings, two separate "selfs" that only share fairly similar body (as the atmosphere of different places have different effect on body, atom by atom, the amount of air you breathe in, etc). Both of these entities remember the moment just before they are beginning to collapse, but they both percieve it differently and have nothing to do with each other.
People should know by now, that each person experiences something, each one is "self" and you are all of it, but can not experience it as a whole, only one in one body.
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Edited by Simms (04/07/11 03:38 PM)
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Simms
Fuckwit


Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 1,109
Loc: Somewhere in Europe
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
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no they are different bricks because there are two of them at different locations
We have covered this quite cleary ALREADY. Only those ignorant in physics make the loudest noise. ALL ATOMS OF THE SAME TYPE ARE IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY. Got it?
Two different bricks exist in two different atmospheres, creating two different properties. Brick is not one atom, brick in this context is the pattern of how the atoms are aligned.
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Edited by Simms (04/07/11 03:36 PM)
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fazdazzle
Wanderer


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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14254183 - 04/07/11 04:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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"You" would be both places/both people, independent of one another. It's not like you'd experience both of their consciousness'.
IMO there's nothing crazy about this thought experiment. If they both have your memories then they would both claim to be you, yet they would remember what led up to that point, so they would recognize that the other is the same as you. After they are created though they are two different entities, just like twins...they start out the same but start to change as they experience new things unique to them.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Simms] 1
#14254348 - 04/07/11 05:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I can get up and walk from point X to point Y without thinking of myself as a different person, which means the configuration of my atoms at point Y is equally valid to the configuration at point X. The difference with the teleporter machine is just that it cuts out the walking part.
You are a different person. to who you were 5 seconds ago. you only exist right now with this particular relation to the universe.
but the truth is right now is an illusion because you are always slipping out of it into a new position in the universe... so you are never really at point X.

so i guess you are right. nothing connects this moment in consciousness to the last. 'your consciousness' is only this particular relation and you have died 1000 times during the reading of this post.
continuity is an illusion.
i lose. (or rather the person who was arguing as quinn before lost. but he is dead. i am not him. )
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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