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OfflineCannashroom
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Reductionist rejection of spirituality * 1
    #14244838 - 04/05/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Spirituality is the exploration of one's self, and all experiences therein and inherently subjective.  When approached from the objective extreme, it is impossible to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this experience.  Our methods of science work very well for investigating the physical world, but fall short of the realm of personal experience.  This system has brought us great revelations about our physical world and with it great technological advances.  Since this system has brought us so much, people think it will bring an explanation to everything.  When something cannot be explained by the system, those with the most faith in it will disregard it.  The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations. 

God will never be found on the lab bench from empirical data because it resides within our own experience and consciousness, which inherently can't be measured.  Some will reject this experience because it cannot be explained empirically.  Others will accept it as a part of the conscious experience and not look for an explanation where it cannot be given.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14244878 - 04/05/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's true, there are questions science cannot answer.

Religion and "spirituality" fail to answer them too, though.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14244935 - 04/05/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If a 'spritual' person is not happier or wiser or more moral or less fearful than a non-spiritual person, then I contend the difference is meaningless and insignificant.

I also contend that if there is some change then it is measurable to some extent.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14246598 - 04/06/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well personality trait changes could be measured, but there is no way to quantify their experience that lead there.

Furthermore, this thread had nothing to do with the difference between "spiritual" and non "spiritual" people, just the inability of science to measure this experience.

OC: Do you believe that spiritual experiences are the result of delusions because they cannot be corroborated by any sort of empirical data?  Are these experiences worthless?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14246648 - 04/06/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Spirituality is the exploration of one's self, and all experiences therein and inherently subjective.  When approached from the objective extreme, it is impossible to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this experience.  Our methods of science work very well for investigating the physical world, but fall short of the realm of personal experience.  This system has brought us great revelations about our physical world and with it great technological advances.  Since this system has brought us so much, people think it will bring an explanation to everything.  When something cannot be explained by the system, those with the most faith in it will disregard it.  The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations. 

God will never be found on the lab bench from empirical data because it resides within our own experience and consciousness, which inherently can't be measured.  Some will reject this experience because it cannot be explained empirically.  Others will accept it as a part of the conscious experience and not look for an explanation where it cannot be given.




i rather enjoy it when people say intelligent things on here.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14246657 - 04/06/11 09:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

...people think it will bring an explanation to everything.




What people?  This is a claim and complaint I often hear from mystics... but I have never once heard anybody actually say or believe that science will bring an explanation to everything.  I think that is a straw man, you are attacking reductionists for something they dont even believe.

Also, I think your description of the ineffable qualities of consciousness and experience fit fine under the paradigm of general philosophy.  Mysticism and spirituality are more than that, they necessarily deal with magic and spirits.

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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14247121 - 04/06/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've heard many people claim science will someday explain everything. Sorry I can't provide any examples.

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: porcupine]
    #14247349 - 04/06/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i'd be satisfied if science could just explain consciousness.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: millzy]
    #14247777 - 04/06/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It never will until the materialist paradigm is abandoned.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14247799 - 04/06/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Huh?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14247804 - 04/06/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Materialism and idealism both imply dualism, which is the real paradigm that should be abandoned.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249636 - 04/06/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Materialism and idealism both imply dualism, which is the real paradigm that should be abandoned.




How does materialism imply dualism if materialism rejects anything beyond the physical?


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14249676 - 04/06/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Because, if there's only one substance, what you choose to call it is arbitrary. Insisting that there's one substance, but that it is matter as opposed to mind, is just a dispute over semantics. Mind and matter are both just names for what is ultimately reducible to the same thing; idealistic monism and materialistic monism are the same philosophy with different terms.

Neutral monism is the way to go. :thumbup: (Though it is essentially compatible with physicalism, and that's the term I use most often when discussing my philosophy just because it's more in line with the language of modern empirical research).

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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249692 - 04/06/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Because, if there's only one substance, what you choose to call it is arbitrary. Insisting that there's one substance, but that it is matter as opposed to mind, is just a dispute over semantics- mind and matter are both just names for what is ultimately reducible to the same thing.

Neutral monism is the way to go. :thumbup: (Though it is essentially compatible with physicalism, and that's the term I use most often when discussing my philosophy just because it's more in line with the language of modern empirical research).




So believing the mind and body are the same thing due to their purely physical existence isn't monism???


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14249701 - 04/06/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It is. I'm just discussing what I perceive to be an unnecessary distinction between materialistic and idealistic monism.

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter what you call it.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249716 - 04/06/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It is. I'm just discussing what I perceive to be an unnecessary distinction between materialistic and idealistic monism.

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter what you call it.




But why the fuck would you call everything mind? That is ridiculous for the context it has taken in language. It means something beyond the physical.

Matter has been defined as it was observed.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14251692 - 04/07/11 06:11 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

you cannot have mind without matter, and the idea is that all matter arises from mind. it's not mind in the sense of the individual ego like you may think, more of along the lines of what the hindis call brahman.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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OfflineFisherman
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: millzy]
    #14251698 - 04/07/11 06:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

braaaaah.....


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EVERYTHING IS DRUGS

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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14251842 - 04/07/11 07:28 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It is. I'm just discussing what I perceive to be an unnecessary distinction between materialistic and idealistic monism.

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter what you call it.




yeah


in the first post, "spirituality" seems to be more like what i'd call "religion" or "superstition"

part of my "spirituality" is to try to avoid religion, superstition, make believe, etc

it feels important to me, being free of that stuff, and living in real life, and so i feel that I am sort of a "spiritual" person






Quote:

The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations.





sounds like somebody is jumping to wild conclusions and beliefs much like god-fearing persons.
The volcano erupted, the volcano god must have did it. Oh, something else we don't know everything about, it must be a hallucination


where is the REAL support for this claim?


The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality because I havent personally agreed to it

might as well put that

music is a mystical experience. i guess its just a hallucination :crazy2:


--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD 
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID


Edited by the bizzle (04/07/11 07:29 AM)

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14251866 - 04/07/11 07:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
But why the fuck would you call everything mind? That is ridiculous for the context it has taken in language. It means something beyond the physical.

Matter has been defined as it was observed.



You could just as easily call everything mind, as all observation that defines matter has been done through the lens of our perception.

Monistic idealism, properly understood, does not imply the existence of ESP, telepathy, or other magical bullshit. If literally everything in the Universe is mind, than no one part has greater influence over the whole than any other. That's why it's a question of semantics. If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter if you call it "mind," "matter," "chocolate pudding," or "fjsdlfsejlrwej."

I just choose to call it "physical" because that's the term used most often in empirical research these days.

Edited by NetDiver (04/07/11 07:43 AM)

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