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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: Seuss]
#14252595 - 04/07/11 11:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think his inflated pay makes up for whatever inflated rates he personally pays.
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
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Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: Seuss]
#14252700 - 04/07/11 11:43 AM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:Union labor represents a tiny fraction (less than 30%) of labor within the US. To claim that labor slavery will result from union's losing their protections is obviously untrue. Over 70% of the labor in the US is non-union, and nobody (except union supporters) are screaming about slavery. Looking in the mirror, would you not call jobs that require you to join a union and require you to pay union dues, a bit closer to slavery?
That's why I support a change in the way unions work. Most unions today are an evolution from last century idea of labor vs capital. Their not wrong per se, but they implement a reductive idea of marxist dialectics about the subject. Unions itself need a revolution and start thinking and acting outside the box.
Btw, even if people are not a part of a union, they (the people) benefit from any collective deals unions perform in a determinate labor market. If there were no unions at all, "the capital" will impose their measures to ensure optimum profit (which is their main objective : profit) cutting down on productions costs (lower salaries). If there isn't a counterpower, no negotiations are made simply because there isn't an organized association (unions) strong enough to claim labor and workers rights and needs. It's obvious it leads invariably to what can be called "labor slavery" : Lower salaries, more working hours, less social protection and incapacity to claim their rights.
Disclaimer: I don't belong to any union, never did. Have my own business. That makes me a boss. Therefore, I have no need or convenience to argue in favor of workers. It just makes utter sense though ...
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: MAIA]
#14253035 - 04/07/11 01:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, people who do not belong to the unions do not benefit from unions. Union presence increases the costs of goods and services for everybody not actually in the union. There is no way that is offset by tiny market force exerted by less than 10% of the work force in selected industries. Further there is the entire issue of unaccountability, especially regarding teachers. It is heinously difficult to get rid of them, tenure outside of university is absurd, and, frankly, I think the bottom performing 10% of any industry should be fired every year. If they are the worst 10% they need to find something that they can actually do. Unions prevent healthy turnover. There's a reason why unions are dying in the private sector. They kill businesses.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: Madtowntripper]
#14254278 - 04/07/11 04:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Madtowntripper said:
Quote:
Seuss said: > You guys must know there are plenty of hard-working union members out there.
I've stated many times that I have no problem with union workers. It is unions, and union bosses, that I have a problem with. Unfortunately, union workers are getting screwed by unions, just like the rest of us.
How so?
Listen, I work for a union company, I'm a Teamster. I have incredible benefits. Health, Vision, Dental, Drug; I don't pay a dime for any of it. I get great vacation time, great pay raises, awesome perks.
The people right next door, who do essentially the same thing, but are non-union, have no benefits, worse pay, and are treated like shit.
What gives? How am I getting shafted?
Your not, neccesarily, though you likely do worse than a breeder with three kids and no spouse to split the costs with, but that's just part of the benefits. The problem is that UPS is protected at times because it uses union labor (as well as just cause that's the result when you get government regulation with a guy spending someone else's money to control commerce that he doesn't own, and a big buisness that can afford to manipulate that guy and the state.
While this doesn't always amount to a benefit, in UPS's case it is. Its not like its a secret, they regularly brag about getting regulations changed and twisted to their prefrence in the newsletter. Wasn't it Illinois a few years ago that reversed their rulling on fuel tax just because UPS didn't want to pay tax for the fuel it bought for use on private roads?
How hard do people work in the carwash at your place? (manual or w/ a drive through?)
I'm genuinely curious. It certainly isn't a hard job everywhere. Some places it hardly can be considered a job.
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
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Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: zappaisgod]
#14254784 - 04/07/11 06:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:Further there is the entire issue of unaccountability, especially regarding teachers. It is heinously difficult to get rid of them, tenure outside of university is absurd, and, frankly, I think the bottom performing 10% of any industry should be fired every year.
Please tell us about an objective way to rate teachers and their performance. Once again, your observation involves prejudice regarding a determinate class: teachers. Classism ? no ?
On the other hand, why not investing in those bottom 10% and upgrade their knowledge with recycling courses and maintain them, if possible, in the system ? Is it not supposed to be about "We the people" first ?
Firing people is the easy way out and solves near to nothing. Imagine this system in place for a long period of time. Do you even know if you got enough man power to replace them ? As I see it, you'd be out of teachers very soon. Makes no sense.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: MAIA]
#14255086 - 04/07/11 07:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MAIA said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:Further there is the entire issue of unaccountability, especially regarding teachers. It is heinously difficult to get rid of them, tenure outside of university is absurd, and, frankly, I think the bottom performing 10% of any industry should be fired every year.
Please tell us about an objective way to rate teachers and their performance. Once again, your observation involves prejudice regarding a determinate class: teachers. Classism ? no ?
Teachers are a determinate class? Are carpenters a class? Any other trade a class? And observation is not prejudice. I have been observing the teaching profession for over 40 years. None of my conclusions are prejudicial. My aunt was a teacher. She didn't think much of a lot of her fellow teachers. In fact, she didn't think a lot of most of them. I would let the principals decide who should stay and who should go. After all, it's also their jobs on the line to make the right decision about staffing. That's what they're paid to do.Quote:
On the other hand, why not investing in those bottom 10% and upgrade their knowledge with recycling courses and maintain them, if possible, in the system ? Is it not supposed to be about "We the people" first ?
If they suck that bad that they are in the bottom 10% there is not likely to be any remediation possible. Don't forget that they have already received far more training than is probably necessary to do that job in the first place. You either have it or you don't. If you don't, move on. "We the People?" What the fuck does that have to do with anything?Quote:
Firing people is the easy way out and solves near to nothing. Imagine this system in place for a long period of time. Do you even know if you got enough man power to replace them ? As I see it, you'd be out of teachers very soon. Makes no sense.
Nope. Firing incompetents is always a positive. For the employer and the employee. Incompetent employees are not happy. They aren't happy because, more than anyone else, They know that they suck. Pushing them along is a favor to them. Let them find something they can do. It is best for all involved. Let me ask you something. How would you feel if your kid got the worst teacher in school?
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)



Registered: 04/27/01
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Loc: Erra - 20 Tauri - M45 Sta...
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: zappaisgod]
#14260131 - 04/08/11 06:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Teachers are a determinate class? Are carpenters a class? Any other trade a class?
Yes. Aren't all a part of society dependent on labor ? Read about the definition of working classes.
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"We the People?" What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
Probably everything. That's why it's very visible in that document you give so much importance. But right now you should change it to "Some of the People". It seems there's no place for everyone. Fire the incompetent ! Fuck'em !
Quote:
Firing incompetents is always a positive. For the employer and the employee. Incompetent employees are not happy. They aren't happy because, more than anyone else, They know that they suck. Pushing them along is a favor to them. Let them find something they can do. It is best for all involved.
???
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
Quote:
How would you feel if your kid got the worst teacher in school?
Not quite happy. But I wouldn't like to see the teacher fired. Look zappa, we probably have very different views about how society can be run. Nevertheless, one thing I will always uphold is a caring society worried about all citizens wellbeing. Anything less than that should be considered a failure.
-------------------- Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy. Voltaire
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: Wisconsin is absolutely, totally, 100% broke and can't waste a cent [Re: MAIA]
#14260188 - 04/08/11 06:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MAIA said:
Quote:
Teachers are a determinate class? Are carpenters a class? Any other trade a class?
Yes. Aren't all a part of society dependent on labor ? Read about the definition of working classes.
You were separating teachers as a class for special treatment. I reject that. Nobody deserves special treatment.Quote:
Quote:
"We the People?" What the fuck does that have to do with anything?
Probably everything. That's why it's very visible in that document you give so much importance. But right now you should change it to "Some of the People". It seems there's no place for everyone. Fire the incompetent ! Fuck'em !
If you want to help bums and losers, go ahead. Get your gun out of my face if I don't feel the same way.Quote:
Quote:
Firing incompetents is always a positive. For the employer and the employee. Incompetent employees are not happy. They aren't happy because, more than anyone else, They know that they suck. Pushing them along is a favor to them. Let them find something they can do. It is best for all involved.
???
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”
If someone can't do a job why should they keep getting paid for it and why should they keep fucking up the product for everyone who uses it?Quote:
Quote:
How would you feel if your kid got the worst teacher in school?
Not quite happy. But I wouldn't like to see the teacher fired. Look zappa, we probably have very different views about how society can be run. Nevertheless, one thing I will always uphold is a caring society worried about all citizens wellbeing. Anything less than that should be considered a failure.
Why do you think it is good for someone's well being to continue in a job that they and everyone else knows they suck at? It is best for everyone involved, including the incompetent employee, to move on.
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