Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
    #14249070 - 04/06/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Yes, if ewe teleported across the room, ewe would be the same person.




:sheepie:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14249084 - 04/06/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is this thing between you and sheep? :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
    #14249091 - 04/06/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hmmm... but isn't space itself not continuous if you zoom in to maximum magnification?  That is, there is a certain distance (the Planck length) beneath which it doesn't make sense to talk about (i.e. it is the shortest measurable length).  In other words, if we examine regular motion on this scale it will appear as though matter is being continually destroyed and recreated 1 Planck length in the direction of motion because we cannot see any movement of the matter in between.  I could be wrong here though as I'm not a physics expert, but I guess I'm drawing an analogy between motion in the real world and the (apparent) motion of a figure on your computer screen: it looks as if a picture of Angelina Jolie is moving from left to right, say, but in reality the pixels comprising her body are continually being erased and redrawn in the direction of motion.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDoc_T
Random Dude
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado Flag
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
    #14249100 - 04/06/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Yes, if you teleported across the room, you would be the same person.




So then if I teleport to Mars I'm the same person also?


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14249102 - 04/06/11 06:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What is this thing between you and sheep? :smirk:




Sheep are the Angelina Jolie of farm animals.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePoid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area Flag
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14249127 - 04/06/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Hmmm... but isn't space itself not continuous if you zoom in to maximum magnification?  That is, there is a certain distance (the Planck length) beneath which it doesn't make sense to talk about (i.e. it is the shortest measurable length).


I read a book about quantum gravity which suggested that space may be quantized--I'm not sure if it's been proven that space if quantized, I don't think it has been though.



Quote:

Doc_T said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Yes, if you teleported across the room, you would be the same person.




So then if I teleport to Mars I'm the same person also?


Yes; I was just pointing out earlier that there is a difference between teleporting across the room with deCypher's machine and walking across it.



Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Poid said:
What is this thing between you and sheep? :smirk:




Sheep are the Angelina Jolie of farm animals.


Chickens are tighter. :chicken:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14249133 - 04/06/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I just said that to draw you out, you sick fucker!


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14249179 - 04/06/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

New debate idea: is it ethical to fuck chickens? :strokebeard:

My guess is that Poid would say yes.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249199 - 04/06/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Fisrt you have to get permission. One cluck for 'yes'; two clucks for 'no'.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14249205 - 04/06/11 06:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

destruction of the physical body = death.

atomically identical =/= identical
given that the atoms have a different relation to the rest of the UNIVERSE. it is not only the atomic relations 'inside' that make you you but also the relation you have to everything else.


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: quinn] * 1
    #14249227 - 04/06/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So long as the configuration can still produce your consciousness, though, it doesn't matter- there is no qualitative difference between being in location X and walking to location Y, and being destroyed at location X and entirely rebuilt at location Y.

Destruction of the physical body may be death, but then reconstitution is rebirth.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249290 - 04/06/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

being in location X and X and walking to location Y, and being destroyed at location X and entirely rebuilt at location Y.




you are always at location X. if you are destroyed at loc X, you are destroyed.

there could be hundreds of identical you's right now in parallel universes. but seeing as they are not at location X (there) they are not actually identical... their relation to everything else is different

:strokebeard:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
    #14249423 - 04/06/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Hmmm... but isn't space itself not continuous if you zoom in to maximum magnification?




Is it?  I don't know of any quantization of space such as you speak of.

The plank length is just a constant relating thingamabobs and whosewhatsits, it doesn't define, by its terms anyways, a minimum length.  Further, I'm unaware of any other theoretical basis for the quantization of space. 


Quote:

In other words, if we examine regular motion on this scale it will appear as though matter is being continually destroyed and recreated 1 Planck length in the direction of motion because we cannot see any movement of the matter in between.  I could be wrong here though as I'm not a physics expert, but I guess I'm drawing an analogy between motion in the real world and the (apparent) motion of a figure on your computer screen: it looks as if a picture of Angelina Jolie is moving from left to right, say, but in reality the pixels comprising her body are continually being erased and redrawn in the direction of motion.




Yes, but as I stated earlier regarding the impossibility of the premise to exist in reality, the quantum indetermanancy of matter means that even if we suppose such a lower bound for spatial increments, the particles comprising your body will not exist wholly in one quanta at one time.  The location of your body is, rather, indeterminant (even without quantizing space), and it can not be said to be discretely present at one percise location (Heisenberg uncertainty limits the extent to which we could determine that location, but the indeterminancy exists even in theory).

For this reason, there is indeed a disjunction between the cases you mention. 

Finally, that particular particles may be fundamental and unable to be differentiated, say two hydrogen atoms in the same quantum state, does not mean that macroscopic objects are necessarily indistinguishable, only that they are identicle.  As I suggested previously, we can watch the object, person, move.  Knowledge of its location in this case provides knowledge of its "identity" as either the "original" or the "copies".  That the matter is hypothetically (and impossibly in reality) identical is besides the point.  Additionally, this identical charecter would only exist at the moment of replication, not at time t+x when you actually examine the various people.  Their differing environments since the replication will make them different in charecter.  For convieniance, you could always label one of them purposefully for easy identification- the same way manufactured items are despite similar composition.



Quote:

Doc_T said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Yes, if you teleported across the room, you would be the same person.




So then if I teleport to Mars I'm the same person also?




An answer depends on what you define as a "person".  This is why I used the term 'soul' which I defined.  You would have the same soul in your scenario as you describe you being transported, which begs the question.

In the original question, no, it would not be the same soul, though it would be identical.  Two identical things no more have the same history and identity defined thereby than two people created by replicating one.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: quinn]
    #14249486 - 04/06/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

being in location X and X and walking to location Y, and being destroyed at location X and entirely rebuilt at location Y.




you are always at location X. if you are destroyed at loc X, you are destroyed.

there could be hundreds of identical you's right now in parallel universes. but seeing as they are not at location X (there) they are not actually identical... their relation to everything else is different

:strokebeard:



What you're essentially saying is that due to their differing locations they will be experiencing different things, which is what makes them different- I wouldn't disagree, but as long as the memory remains continuous, no matter whether or not the "original" physical body has been destroyed, you have the ability to identify yourself as the same person.

Your identity is defined by your memories, and your memories are just information. Replicate that information and you replicate identity; identities diverge when they experience two different things simultaneously.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249536 - 04/06/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i agree.

but i would rather define identity as this body at its present location. why even bother with memory and continuity?

if this body is destroyed at its present location it's identity is destroyed.


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: quinn] * 1
    #14249607 - 04/06/11 08:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The issue is not whether or not your identity would be destroyed (which is a given), but rather whether or not it could be re-created, provided a body with identical memories was created (or not even necessarily identical; just enough to maintain a psychological continuity).

I say yes, because identity seems to me to be entirely based in memory.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: johnm214]
    #14250108 - 04/06/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Hmmm... but isn't space itself not continuous if you zoom in to maximum magnification?




Is it?  I don't know of any quantization of space such as you speak of.

The plank length is just a constant relating thingamabobs and whosewhatsits, it doesn't define, by its terms anyways, a minimum length.  Further, I'm unaware of any other theoretical basis for the quantization of space.




I've heard the theory proposed in various places but I don't think it's widely accepted.  At any rate, like you say, the uncertainty principle makes it impossible to precisely know the state/position/velocity of your body's atoms at a specific time... but that's why this is a thought experiment.  :smile:

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Finally, that particular particles may be fundamental and unable to be differentiated, say two hydrogen atoms in the same quantum state, does not mean that macroscopic objects are necessarily indistinguishable, only that they are identicle.  As I suggested previously, we can watch the object, person, move.  Knowledge of its location in this case provides knowledge of its "identity" as either the "original" or the "copies".  That the matter is hypothetically (and impossibly in reality) identical is besides the point.  Additionally, this identical charecter would only exist at the moment of replication, not at time t+x when you actually examine the various people.  Their differing environments since the replication will make them different in charecter.  For convieniance, you could always label one of them purposefully for easy identification- the same way manufactured items are despite similar composition.




Sure, the copies would instantly start to diverge upon creation, and each would respectively claim to be the real version of the person who went through the teleporter.  But the point I'm trying to grapple with here is what would go on in terms of the subjective experience of this person: we assume that we are the same person as the body that bore our name five minutes ago, yesterday, and even ten years ago.  This is despite the fact that our body's atoms are not identical to our body's atoms at these previous stages, and even the fact that our thoughts and beliefs might be completely different!  So what prevents this continuity of consciousness, or this steady progression into time of an observing 'I', if you will, from occurring if we instantaneously move you from here to Mars?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: NetDiver]
    #14250112 - 04/06/11 09:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The issue is not whether or not your identity would be destroyed (which is a given), but rather whether or not it could be re-created, provided a body with identical memories was created (or not even necessarily identical; just enough to maintain a psychological continuity).




Exactly what I'm getting at.  :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblejohnm214
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
    #14250458 - 04/06/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Hmmm... but isn't space itself not continuous if you zoom in to maximum magnification?




Is it?  I don't know of any quantization of space such as you speak of.

The plank length is just a constant relating thingamabobs and whosewhatsits, it doesn't define, by its terms anyways, a minimum length.  Further, I'm unaware of any other theoretical basis for the quantization of space.




I've heard the theory proposed in various places but I don't think it's widely accepted.  At any rate, like you say, the uncertainty principle makes it impossible to precisely know the state/position/velocity of your body's atoms at a specific time... but that's why this is a thought experiment.  :smile:

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Finally, that particular particles may be fundamental and unable to be differentiated, say two hydrogen atoms in the same quantum state, does not mean that macroscopic objects are necessarily indistinguishable, only that they are identicle.  As I suggested previously, we can watch the object, person, move.  Knowledge of its location in this case provides knowledge of its "identity" as either the "original" or the "copies".  That the matter is hypothetically (and impossibly in reality) identical is besides the point.  Additionally, this identical charecter would only exist at the moment of replication, not at time t+x when you actually examine the various people.  Their differing environments since the replication will make them different in charecter.  For convieniance, you could always label one of them purposefully for easy identification- the same way manufactured items are despite similar composition.




Sure, the copies would instantly start to diverge upon creation, and each would respectively claim to be the real version of the person who went through the teleporter.  But the point I'm trying to grapple with here is what would go on in terms of the subjective experience of this person: we assume that we are the same person as the body that bore our name five minutes ago, yesterday, and even ten years ago.  This is despite the fact that our body's atoms are not identical to our body's atoms at these previous stages, and even the fact that our thoughts and beliefs might be completely different!  So what prevents this continuity of consciousness, or this steady progression into time of an observing 'I', if you will, from occurring if we instantaneously move you from here to Mars?





Oh, nothing, in my mind.  There would be identical memory, substance, nature, at the moment of scanning/creation, diverging after that moment.  Each would have the same memory of the events prior to the critical point, and a diverging memory after.

THis isn't what I understood by the term "you" though when i referred to it earlier- I was referring to the particular body, my point being that there is a difference and it is not like a teleportation every moment as the nondeterminism essentially establishes only an infinitely 'smeared' probability of where the person will be in space at a given point in time.

As for the very simnilar nature of the two people: That we might be unable to differentiate between particular people, be it because we have limited data or because they are identical, is immaterial to the observer, and not even particularly foreign.    Its just a matter of degree, with the state of failing to determine a difference between the people present all the time (two people behind curtains who speak similarly in a similar style, two people seen with poor acuity that cannot be differentiated, et cet).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: NetDiver]
    #14250544 - 04/06/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The issue is not whether or not your identity would be destroyed (which is a given), but rather whether or not it could be re-created, provided a body with identical memories was created (or not even necessarily identical; just enough to maintain a psychological continuity).




what is 'psychological continuity'?

do you mean would 'your' subjective experience continue? no. how could it? two other subjective experiences would exist tho.

if i threw a brick thru the teleporter would the brick still exist? no. it was destroyed. but two other bricks would exist.

:confused:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Teleportation? Anonymous 672 2 02/13/02 01:12 AM
by Zylo
* The ethics of teleportation Rhizoid 3,508 13 07/23/07 06:32 AM
by Rhizoid
* Random Teleportation vs. Quantum Teleportation Droz 937 8 12/07/03 12:36 AM
by Shroomism
* Objective Teleportation.
( 1 2 all )
Droz 3,372 26 01/07/04 04:07 PM
by trendal
* QUANTUM TELEPORTATION lucid 1,218 16 06/21/03 08:38 AM
by Rhizoid
* Experience with Spiritual Energies Ravus 966 11 04/17/04 04:03 PM
by Mr_Gubjet
* ESSAY:Psychedelic induced mystical experiences by Alan Watts tekramrepus 2,908 6 03/21/03 11:43 AM
by pattern
* What is your strangest non-drug experience?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 5,694 77 12/13/04 08:10 PM
by balls

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
8,016 topic views. 0 members, 7 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 15 queries.