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 xFrockx
 
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
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Still waiting on you to fulfil the bet dude. Don't think I forgot. I won't make you leave for a month, but you at least owe me an explanation of why you totally ducked out.
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 johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
My answers: a) "you" would no longer exist, neither the copy nor the second copy would be you.
You would have to define 'you' in such a way as to be determined. Otherwise, a difference that maks no difference is no difference.
There is a difference, as that matter at that location would not exist. We call that "you", the original, whatever you want. That is the body of the person who stepped into the machine. That a proton, for example, can not be distinguished from another in the same quantum state does not mean we can not distinguish between them: one is over there, the other is here. The "you" is the body that enters the machine. That if the body survived it could likely not be differentiated from the others through examination is immaterial: we could put a lable on "you", for example, after it steps out of a nondestructive machine.
Quote:
Seems the idea of a soul is rooted deep in the psyche - even a materialist psyche.
Doesn't matter. People seem to dislike the idea of a soul, but I clearly describe that quality I am referring to and it is indeed a quality that is given much distinction: in withdrawing care from a vegetative, braindead, body, in differentiating between the live body and the dead body, et cet. The soul as I defined in the post is simply that quality which makes the person as opposed to the body- it doesn't require immaterial basis, its simply an idea to clearly represent the person in language that is less ambiguous than the word" person" is- which doesn't necessarily refer to the concept I refer to.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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 Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment  [Re: Poid]
#14248703 - 04/06/11 05:14 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Doc_T said:
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BlueCoyote said:
But Poid is right. The assumption that ones own consciousness continues somehow in the copies is just a weird assumption.
If the me that is me isn't in the arrangement of the materials of my brain, then where am I?
The Astral Plane. 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 18 hours, 10 minutes
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That must be where you left your betting shoes.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: xFrockx]
#14248793 - 04/06/11 05:37 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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All the arguments stating that a copy "just wouldn't be you" are implying that they believe in a soul, whether they realize it or not, by saying that you are made up of something other than a specific physical configuration.
Wherever that physical configuration exists, your consciousness exists. They are one and the same. To say that your consciousness ends even when there's a body exactly like yours is to say that your consciousness is somehow separate from your body.
How are you the same person you were as a kid? Literally all of the cells in your body are different. Your outlook is presumably different. You definitely look and sound different. Continuity of memory is how you identify yourself; a personal narrative based on your memories.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
yo this thread has really got my mind moving.
ive just been chillin thinkin about it for the past 30 or so minutes and im just going on all these wild tangents about how we are currently "teleporting" in this manner and im not who i was 5 minutes ago, i am simply a mutation of me then. i am a separate entity now.
this is how i explain it.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said: im not who i was 5 minutes ago,
this is how i explain it.
Well that's how Alice explained it to the Red Queen too.
(Edit- I'm thinking of the Caterpillar of course. "Who are you".
But the Red Queen somehow is in my head too, I need to re-read the book and find out why.)
But time travel is another thread I think.
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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
Edited by Doc_T (04/06/11 06:09 PM)
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
#14248842 - 04/06/11 05:47 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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im not well versed on alice in wonderland so i cant really comment on that.
but im not talking about time travel.
who i am at THIS MOMENT RIGHT NOW is me with my opinion which is formed by my past experience from THIS MOMENT RIGHT NOW all the way back in time.
assume i watched an old lady get raped right outside my window by a black bear right now. that would emotionally scar me.
i would be changed as a person.
i wouldnt be "myself" in this moment, from that moment on.
some people experience trauma and "arent themselves" anymore. we always arent ourself anymore because we are always altered from our previous self in some miniscule way by every moment and every experience. its just that at times it is a much more noticable change.
one of "me" on the moon and one of "me" on mars would create two new versions of me. they would be changed by the different experience. they wouldnt be "me" from this moment, but they would still be me. just new versions of me.
people change.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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So if they are both you, it's wouldn't be gay if they had sex?
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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
#14248866 - 04/06/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
So if they are both you, it's wouldn't be gay if they had sex?
nah its still gay cuz one dude is stickin it in another dudes pooper.
theyre two different people. theyre only "me" for an immeasurably small period of time after they are created.
the first stimulus they receive makes them no longer me.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker
Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
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right now, im not who i was when i made that last post. im that guy, only altered slightly.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
im not well versed on alice in wonderland
Awesome book, btw. It's a treatise in existential logic disguised as a children's book.
Woven in is a primer in foundational semantics and a complete chess game (in Through the Looking Glass, usually published in the same volume).
Freakin' awesome, go read them right now.  
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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
the first stimulus they receive makes them no longer me.
Quote:
SamuelLJackson said:
right now, im not who i was when i made that last post. im that guy, only altered slightly.
You go into the teleportation booth, and then walk back out.
You've changed, but you're still you.
Ok so far.
Now, you walk into the booth, and walk out on Mars.
You've changed and now you're not you.
I don't get it. What's the difference between the two yous?
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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: meatcakeman]
#14249005 - 04/06/11 06:13 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
one could maybe assume that quite possibly the teleportation device could potentially transfer your soul as well.
I'm envisioning this thought experiment under the premise of reductionist materialism: there is nothing more to you than the physical pattern of interacting atoms that makes up your body. This doesn't deny the existence of a mind or awareness; instead it simply redefines these entities as nothing more than physical processes.
Overall, great responses guys. It seems that some of you don't believe that your consciousness would continue if you teleported in this fashion: you would die when your original body is destroyed and a new human (coincidentally sharing all your thoughts, memories, personality and body) would be created at the teleporter's target location, but that human would not be you. But is this really true? Why couldn't consciousness be contiguous in this way?
Look at it this way: isn't the instantaneous motion of a body from point A to point B indiscernible from the destruction of the body at point A and simultaneous creation of the body at point B? If we say that I'm the same person if I move to the other end of the room, then why wouldn't I be the same person if I instantaneously move to the other end of the room? It seems intuitive that my subjective awareness would continue, sans break or disruption, as I walk into the teleporter here on Earth and out onto Mars in the original scenario. I'm still baffled by the second scenario with TWO copies made rather than just ONE, though. I agree that at first they would be identical to each other but immediately after the fact that they would be having different experiences would make their consciousnesses diverge.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14249031 - 04/06/11 06:19 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
If we say that I'm the same person if I move to the other end of the room, then why wouldn't I be the same person if I instantaneously move to the other end of the room?
Because the atoms composing your body aren't destroyed when you move to the other end of the room?
Just playing Devil's advocate here. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher] 1
#14249038 - 04/06/11 06:20 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Ever notice how all sci-fi series resort to the old "two of the main character" ruse when the writing gets stale?
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14249040 - 04/06/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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I'd still be the same person if I teleported across the room though. Yes?
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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T] 1
#14249047 - 04/06/11 06:21 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Yes, if you teleported across the room, you would be the same person.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14249069 - 04/06/11 06:26 PM (13 years, 13 days ago) |
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Teleportation
Quote:
Teleportation is the idea of the transfer of matter from one point to another, more or less instantaneously...
Nothing about teleportation requires the destruction of the atoms composing your body.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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