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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14248295 - 04/06/11 04:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you are asserting the existence of some extra-material component, a 'soul'?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
deCypher said: Now, suppose the teleporter is altered in the following fashion: your original body is still destroyed atom by atom, but instead of reconstituting ONE copy of your body in another location, it now instantaneously reconstitutes TWO copies in two different locations, say Mars and the Moon.
What part of 'copies' are you having difficulty with?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
#14248304 - 04/06/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Not at all; what makes you think this? 
A copy is not the same thing as an original. If a copy of me is made, it is just that, a copy. If two copies of me are made, they are just that, two copies. If my original body is destroyed, and two copies of me are made, there would be two copies, and no me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid] 1
#14248317 - 04/06/11 04:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Identical twins are identical
I am losing faith in you, Gilligan. You are once again shifting from the quantum to the macro.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid] 2
#14248327 - 04/06/11 04:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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A copy of a book still contains the same info- won't a copy of my brain contain an identical me?
Twins and clones are not identical in the sense of this teleporter- we're talking about something identical on the sub atomic level.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14248339 - 04/06/11 04:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
A copy is not the same thing as an original
Really? I would wager any amount that I can make 10 digital copies of a music recording and you cannot tell the difference by listening.
We are talking INFORMATION here. You need to shift your persepective.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Doc_T said: Twins and clones are not identical in the sense of this teleporter- we're talking about something identical on the sub atomic level.
Alright, after giving this a little thought, I see what you guys are saying. 
I hereby rescind my previous argument.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14248384 - 04/06/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So... is there something non-physical to humans? "Soul" is a slippery word, but it works well enough for this.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid] 2
#14248408 - 04/06/11 04:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Doc_T said: Twins and clones are not identical in the sense of this teleporter- we're talking about something identical on the sub atomic level.
Alright, after giving this a little thought, I see what you guys are saying. 
I hereby rescind my previous argument. 
Wow, Poidster. This is a PSP first and should be stickied. A member shifting his perspective in response to other members.
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14248414 - 04/06/11 04:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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People seem to be selectively ignoring parts of the premise they don't like. It doesn't matter if the machine is impossible to build or whatever.]
My answers: a) "you" would no longer exist, neither the copy nor the second copy would be you. b) both or any number of copies would have your memories and be indistinguishable from you, but they would not be the same person with the same soul, where soul is that individual quality that differentiates the human person from the human body c) it would not be possible, even in principle, to determine through examination whether a given person is the "original" or the "copies", even if you had previously examined the "original". d) Had the "real person" not been destroyed then the "real person" would continue to be "you" and would have no memory of anything having to do with the copies, though he would remember the duplication. It might be possible to determine through testing of the memory and the consequent differences whether a given person in this case is the original or the copy(ies).
As for the premises: I think something like this couldn't be done due to the uncertainty principle: neither the exact state of the examined individual nor the exact state of the materials used to make the duplicates nor the exact state of the duplicates themselves could be determined, hence the machine could not be made. The reason is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and, more fundamentally, indeterminacy
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Doc_T said: So... is there something non-physical to humans? "Soul" is a slippery word, but it works well enough for this.
I really want to say no--the brain is "plastic" (see: neural plasticity), so if the two copies are sent to different places (Mars and the Moon), then both of their brains would not be identical after receiving sensory information from their respective locations. I think they would just be two different me's with their own individual consciousnesses...
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Doc_T said: Twins and clones are not identical in the sense of this teleporter- we're talking about something identical on the sub atomic level.
Alright, after giving this a little thought, I see what you guys are saying. 
I hereby rescind my previous argument. 
Wow, Poidster. This is a PSP first and should be stickied. A member shifting his perspective in response to other members. 
I know, that rarely ever fucking happens here.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: johnm214]
#14248444 - 04/06/11 04:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
My answers: a) "you" would no longer exist, neither the copy nor the second copy would be you.
You would have to define 'you' in such a way as to be determined. Otherwise, a difference that maks no difference is no difference.
Seems the idea of a soul is rooted deep in the psyche - even a materialist psyche.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14248453 - 04/06/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So both copies are 'you' up to the point of exiting the transporter. Once different sensory input happens, the copy is no longer identical, and is a different person.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
#14248506 - 04/06/11 04:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Seems the idea of a soul is rooted deep in the psyche - even a materialist psyche.

Quote:
Doc_T said: So both copies are 'you' up to the point of exiting the transporter.
There is no "exiting" of the transporter in this thought experiment:
Quote:
...it simultaneously destroys the atoms composing your body and recreates them at some other location.
So, as soon as you step into the transporter, it recreates the atoms composing your body in two different locations. As soon as both you's arrive in their respective locations, they will be subject to vastly different stimuli, and their brains would react accordingly.
Quote:
Doc_T said: Once different sensory input happens, the copy is no longer identical, and is a different person.
I don't think the copies are ever identical, since their brains will react to the vastly different stimuli immediately upon arrival to their respective locations. Well, perhaps they're identical for a millisecond or so, or however much time it takes for their brains to react to their respective environments.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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But Poid is right. The assumption that ones own consciousness continues somehow in the copies is just a weird assumption, especially if ones own body atoms will be destroyed. I too think one just dies and enters oblivion.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14248550 - 04/06/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Suppose we don't destroy the original, he leaves unharmed.
Would it be ethical to then destroy the copy at any point after creation?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14248573 - 04/06/11 04:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said: Suppose we don't destroy the original, he leaves unharmed.
Would it be ethical to then destroy the copy at any point after creation?
Not IMO, it's just as alive as I am.
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: But Poid is right. The assumption that ones own consciousness continues somehow in the copies is just a weird assumption, especially if ones own body atoms will be destroyed. I too think one just dies and enters oblivion.
The atoms are destroyed, then recreated:
Quote:
...it simultaneously destroys the atoms composing your body and recreates them at some other location.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14248590 - 04/06/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: But Poid is right. The assumption that ones own consciousness continues somehow in the copies is just a weird assumption.
If the me that is me isn't in the arrangement of the materials of my brain, then where am I?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14248611 - 04/06/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The assumption that ones own consciousness continues somehow in the copies is just a weird assumption
Calling it 'weird' is not a counter-argument. 
Try again.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Doc_T]
#14248624 - 04/06/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said: But Poid is right. The assumption that ones own consciousness continues somehow in the copies is just a weird assumption.
If the me that is me isn't in the arrangement of the materials of my brain, then where am I?
The Astral Plane.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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