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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Teleportation Thought Experiment
#14245845 - 04/06/11 01:51 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Suppose there exists a teleportation device such that when you enter it, it simultaneously destroys the atoms composing your body and recreates them at some other location. You can enter a teleporter here on Earth, for example, and from your viewpoint you will instantly be on Mars if you chose to have your body reconstituted there. Let us accept this premise for the purposes of this thought experiment.
Now, suppose the teleporter is altered in the following fashion: your original body is still destroyed atom by atom, but instead of reconstituting ONE copy of your body in another location, it now instantaneously reconstitutes TWO copies in two different locations, say Mars and the Moon. You step into the Earth teleporter, and two duplicates of you walk out; one on Mars and one on the Moon. Each will claim to be you and will have the exact same memories, personalities, and body as you did. More importantly, each will have equal validity to claim to be you from an outside perspective.
But let us examine this process from the subjective perspective of your personal experience: you walk into the Earth teleporter, experiencing the sight of the incredible machine and feeling your toes move against the interior surface of your boots. But what will your subjective experience be like AFTER you press the button to teleport yourself into the two duplicate copies? Will your experience suddenly shift to Mars, leaving the Moon version of you a fraudulent impostor who merely pretends to be you? Will your experience suddenly shift to the Moon instead, and a similar imposter will instantaneously appear on the Moon? Or will your consciousness become split into two, leaving you to simultaneously experience both Moon events and Mars events? Or will something entirely different occur?
Plz discuss.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14245956 - 04/06/11 02:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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well, technically, you cannot create matter, so i doubt your hypothetical situation is even possible. but maybe in the future we will figure out a way to create matter. in case that scenario were to occur, i'd say one of me is the real me, while the other is a clone.
or you just created a loophole in life wherein you have the ability to control multiple bodies....

-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14245959 - 04/06/11 02:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I die, and each clone has the experience of believing they are the "real me". Maybe.
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Boheim
Pondering Thangs



Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 770
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: meatcakeman]
#14245970 - 04/06/11 02:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said: well, technically, you cannot create matter, so i doubt your hypothetical situation is even possible. but maybe in the future we will figure out a way to create matter. in case that scenario were to occur, i'd say one of me is the real me, while the other is a clone.
or you just created a loophole in life wherein you have the ability to control multiple bodies....
 
assuming this wild amusing idea could happen...destroying your atoms and recreating your structure elsewhere would simply be a new you IMO...to make two copies would be just that,two copies,since the original was destroyed.whatever number of copies left over would all be imposters.
who those copies will become after that point would make more of a difference than who they were..controlling multiple bodies with one consciousness would be going a little further out there than the already wild idea of creating a double on mars...It would be a situation like twins,but with some point of their memories being the same.
still a wild thought,so I am just talking out of my ass here
-------------------- Není důležité co v životě děláš, hlavně že to dělaš. You can read books about mycology and taxonomy all your life, until you actually go out and hunt mushrooms you are nothing but a bloody n00b. Same goes for mushroom cultivation or any other subject. Theoretical knowledge is nothing without practical application of that knowledge. -German Kahuna
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Boheim]
#14245987 - 04/06/11 03:02 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boheim said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said: well, technically, you cannot create matter, so i doubt your hypothetical situation is even possible. but maybe in the future we will figure out a way to create matter. in case that scenario were to occur, i'd say one of me is the real me, while the other is a clone.
or you just created a loophole in life wherein you have the ability to control multiple bodies....
 
assuming this wild amusing idea could happen...destroying your atoms and recreating your structure elsewhere would simply be a new you IMO...to make two copies would be just that,two copies,since the original was destroyed.whatever number of copies left over would all be imposters.
who those copies will become after that point would make more of a difference than who they were..controlling multiple bodies with one consciousness would be going a little further out there than the already wild idea of creating a double on mars...It would be a situation like twins,but with some point of their memories being the same.
still a wild thought,so I am just talking out of my ass here
that's what i was initially thinking. but technically you're not destroying your energy during a normal teleportation, since energy cannot be destroyed. so, one could maybe assume that quite possibly the teleportation device could potentially transfer your soul as well. in a sense, it would be like creating a device that acts as a portable wormhole.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Boheim
Pondering Thangs



Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 770
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: meatcakeman]
#14246003 - 04/06/11 03:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said:
Quote:
Boheim said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said: well, technically, you cannot create matter, so i doubt your hypothetical situation is even possible. but maybe in the future we will figure out a way to create matter. in case that scenario were to occur, i'd say one of me is the real me, while the other is a clone.
or you just created a loophole in life wherein you have the ability to control multiple bodies....
 
assuming this wild amusing idea could happen...destroying your atoms and recreating your structure elsewhere would simply be a new you IMO...to make two copies would be just that,two copies,since the original was destroyed.whatever number of copies left over would all be imposters.
who those copies will become after that point would make more of a difference than who they were..controlling multiple bodies with one consciousness would be going a little further out there than the already wild idea of creating a double on mars...It would be a situation like twins,but with some point of their memories being the same.
still a wild thought,so I am just talking out of my ass here
that's what i was initially thinking. but technically you're not destroying your energy during a normal teleportation, since energy cannot be destroyed. so, one could maybe assume that quite possibly the teleportation device could potentially transfer your soul as well. in a sense, it would be like creating a device that acts as a portable wormhole.
not bashing those that believe in souls...but one would have to actually have one to transfer.
-------------------- Není důležité co v životě děláš, hlavně že to dělaš. You can read books about mycology and taxonomy all your life, until you actually go out and hunt mushrooms you are nothing but a bloody n00b. Same goes for mushroom cultivation or any other subject. Theoretical knowledge is nothing without practical application of that knowledge. -German Kahuna
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Boheim]
#14246014 - 04/06/11 03:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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well, soul as in the energy that runs your body, not necessarily the embellished concept of soul depicted by religion. sorry if that wasn't clear enough in my previous post.
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Boheim
Pondering Thangs



Registered: 06/12/10
Posts: 770
Loc: edge of the future
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: meatcakeman]
#14246038 - 04/06/11 03:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
meatcakeman said: well, soul as in the energy that runs your body, not necessarily the embellished concept of soul depicted by religion. sorry if that wasn't clear enough in my previous post.
i guess I see where you are coming from...but we already assume that the two copies that are created are living,thinking they are the one that stepped into the original device millions of miles away,so why would this previous "life force" be necessary?..if you get where I am going.
if RP said more of this hypothetical machine...I would see more sense in this ...he states that the machine destroys one,recreates in another loaction...nothing about the transferring...if the machines simply transfer required data as a blueprint to recreate the person elsewhere,I don't see any significance with the original persons "energy"...but if they simply transfer particles,that would be a whole different discussion.and would leave one confused as to how two beings are created...if energy had any part of it,wouldn't both copies be lacking something and not necessarily whole? thus,two different individuals,that may simply look the same.
mehh,fun late night thread..beats tv
-------------------- Není důležité co v životě děláš, hlavně že to dělaš. You can read books about mycology and taxonomy all your life, until you actually go out and hunt mushrooms you are nothing but a bloody n00b. Same goes for mushroom cultivation or any other subject. Theoretical knowledge is nothing without practical application of that knowledge. -German Kahuna
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva



Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Boheim]
#14246057 - 04/06/11 03:46 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boheim said:
Quote:
meatcakeman said: well, soul as in the energy that runs your body, not necessarily the embellished concept of soul depicted by religion. sorry if that wasn't clear enough in my previous post.
i guess I see where you are coming from...but we already assume that the two copies that are created are living,thinking they are the one that stepped into the original device millions of miles away,so why would this previous "life force" be necessary?..if you get where I am going.
no i get where you going with it because, like i said before, that's what i was previously thinking. OP just needs to give more info!
-------------------- 大开眼界
 
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker


Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14246075 - 04/06/11 04:06 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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didnt really read the replies to the thread, but heres my take on it:
the created individual is a separate individual from you. assuming you only create one, it is essentially you as it retains all of your memories and all that other fancy stuff.
if you create two, but in two separate locations, they are both you from the point prior to the creation, but separate individuals from the point of their creation on.
they could relate the same experience prior to the creation of them, but from that point on they would be your opinion altered in whatever way it would be altered by being the one made on the moon, or being the one made on mars.
assuming they came back to earth, they would have what your opinion would have been assuming you yourself went to the moon or mars. but as time goes on from the point of their creation they would develop differing (yet similar) opinions based upon their own subjective experiences, with the original basis to their subjective opinions and experiences being your experiences prior to the 'teleportation'.
in essence, they are two different people; two different people who began life with a predetermined basis for thought and experience. neither of them are "you".
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Samuel L Jackson
Bad Motherfucker


Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 8,395
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yo this thread has really got my mind moving.
ive just been chillin thinkin about it for the past 30 or so minutes and im just going on all these wild tangents about how we are currently "teleporting" in this manner and im not who i was 5 minutes ago, i am simply a mutation of me then. i am a separate entity now.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Y'all should read Rogue Moon by uh... Algis Budris? 50's era scifi on this exact subject.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14246291 - 04/06/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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entering the machine subjectively = death
but to serve a higher purpose i would have the plan in my head for my moon counterpart to move the teleporter back to earth and then enter the machine (repeatedly).
there would be millions of quinns colonizing Mars and readying an assault on earth to eradicate all the (inferior) humans and realizing a utopian super race of quinns.
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: quinn]
#14247183 - 04/06/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Haha, I love this thought experiment.
I subscribe more or less to the memory criterion of personal identity, so I would say that as soon as two of them perceive different things simultaneously, they have different memories and are thus definable as "different" entities. One of them possesses information the other lacks, and vice-versa.
An interesting consequence of using memory to define identity- if you completely erase someone's memory, does that amount to death? What's the difference between erasing someone's memory and re-teaching them everything, and killing someone and then teaching a new-born baby everything they knew?
Edited by NetDiver (04/06/11 12:29 PM)
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14247411 - 04/06/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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If we are robots then your experience will cease to exist and two other chains of experience will begin.
If we are robots with souls then you will have just created two soulless, subjective experience lacking, robots. Unless you have read up on soul dynamics. In any case the soul would have to have extreme adaptivity in order to combine the input from two subjective experiences in any meaningful way.
If we are robots and our subjective experience is a mask hiding the shared universal consciousness (Brahman) then I suspect the subjective experience mask will develop for each of the copies, and like twins it would be two separate masks.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14248001 - 04/06/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: But let us examine this process from the subjective perspective of your personal experience: you walk into the Earth teleporter, experiencing the sight of the incredible machine and feeling your toes move against the interior surface of your boots. But what will your subjective experience be like AFTER you press the button to teleport yourself into the two duplicate copies? Will your experience suddenly shift to Mars, leaving the Moon version of you a fraudulent impostor who merely pretends to be you? Will your experience suddenly shift to the Moon instead, and a similar imposter will instantaneously appear on the Moon? Or will your consciousness become split into two, leaving you to simultaneously experience both Moon events and Mars events? Or will something entirely different occur?
If my original body is destroyed atom by atom, then it wouldn't be a teleportation machine, and I'd be dead; a teleportation machine would not destroy my original body, it would teleport it atom by atom. The machine you're describing is more like a duplicator than a teleporter.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,432
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid] 1
#14248057 - 04/06/11 03:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes and no. While no two snowflakes may be alike, physicists believe that every hydrogen atom is identical/indistinguishable to/from every other hydrogen atom.
This thought experiment bothers some people because it becomes obvious that there is no soul; that we are just information stored in the configuration of our parts.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Yes and no. While no two snowflakes may be alike, physicists believe that every hydrogen atom is identical/indistinguishable to/from every other hydrogen atom.
Still, if your original body gets destroyed atom by atom, and this "teleportation" machine creates two new identical ones out of different atoms, neither of those new bodies would be your original body; that they're atomically identical is irrelevant to the fact that neither of them are your original body (which was destroyed atom by atom, and doesn't exist anymore).
I don't consider a machine that destroys your body atom by atom to be a teleportation machine; IMO, a teleportation machine would preserve your body and the configuration of atoms that comprise it.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: Poid]
#14248177 - 04/06/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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What part of 'identical' are you having difficulty with? Stop thinking on the macro level.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Teleportation Thought Experiment [Re: deCypher]
#14248237 - 04/06/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said: Suppose there exists a teleportation device such that when you enter it, it simultaneously destroys the atoms composing your body...
Identical twins are identical, but they are not the same person; my brother's two pot plants are identical, but they are not the same plant; the pills in my medicine bottle are identical, but each of them are not all the same pill; the grains of sand on a beach are identical, but they are not each the same grain of sand; these two books in my local bookstore are identical, but they are not the same book. Etc., etc...
If my original body was destroyed, then I'd be dead, period. If a copy of me was made, then it would be a different me with its own consciousness, but it wouldn't be me (because I would be dead); it would be my clone, but it wouldn't be me. Just because something is atomically identical to me doesn't mean that it's me; this is like saying (if I had a clone) that my clone is me.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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