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OfflineCannashroom
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Reductionist rejection of spirituality * 1
    #14244838 - 04/05/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Spirituality is the exploration of one's self, and all experiences therein and inherently subjective.  When approached from the objective extreme, it is impossible to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this experience.  Our methods of science work very well for investigating the physical world, but fall short of the realm of personal experience.  This system has brought us great revelations about our physical world and with it great technological advances.  Since this system has brought us so much, people think it will bring an explanation to everything.  When something cannot be explained by the system, those with the most faith in it will disregard it.  The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations. 

God will never be found on the lab bench from empirical data because it resides within our own experience and consciousness, which inherently can't be measured.  Some will reject this experience because it cannot be explained empirically.  Others will accept it as a part of the conscious experience and not look for an explanation where it cannot be given.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14244878 - 04/05/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's true, there are questions science cannot answer.

Religion and "spirituality" fail to answer them too, though.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14244935 - 04/05/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If a 'spritual' person is not happier or wiser or more moral or less fearful than a non-spiritual person, then I contend the difference is meaningless and insignificant.

I also contend that if there is some change then it is measurable to some extent.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14246598 - 04/06/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well personality trait changes could be measured, but there is no way to quantify their experience that lead there.

Furthermore, this thread had nothing to do with the difference between "spiritual" and non "spiritual" people, just the inability of science to measure this experience.

OC: Do you believe that spiritual experiences are the result of delusions because they cannot be corroborated by any sort of empirical data?  Are these experiences worthless?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14246648 - 04/06/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Spirituality is the exploration of one's self, and all experiences therein and inherently subjective.  When approached from the objective extreme, it is impossible to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this experience.  Our methods of science work very well for investigating the physical world, but fall short of the realm of personal experience.  This system has brought us great revelations about our physical world and with it great technological advances.  Since this system has brought us so much, people think it will bring an explanation to everything.  When something cannot be explained by the system, those with the most faith in it will disregard it.  The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations. 

God will never be found on the lab bench from empirical data because it resides within our own experience and consciousness, which inherently can't be measured.  Some will reject this experience because it cannot be explained empirically.  Others will accept it as a part of the conscious experience and not look for an explanation where it cannot be given.




i rather enjoy it when people say intelligent things on here.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14246657 - 04/06/11 09:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

...people think it will bring an explanation to everything.




What people?  This is a claim and complaint I often hear from mystics... but I have never once heard anybody actually say or believe that science will bring an explanation to everything.  I think that is a straw man, you are attacking reductionists for something they dont even believe.

Also, I think your description of the ineffable qualities of consciousness and experience fit fine under the paradigm of general philosophy.  Mysticism and spirituality are more than that, they necessarily deal with magic and spirits.


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14247121 - 04/06/11 12:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I've heard many people claim science will someday explain everything. Sorry I can't provide any examples.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: porcupine]
    #14247349 - 04/06/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i'd be satisfied if science could just explain consciousness.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: millzy]
    #14247777 - 04/06/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It never will until the materialist paradigm is abandoned.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14247799 - 04/06/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Huh?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14247804 - 04/06/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Materialism and idealism both imply dualism, which is the real paradigm that should be abandoned.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249636 - 04/06/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Materialism and idealism both imply dualism, which is the real paradigm that should be abandoned.




How does materialism imply dualism if materialism rejects anything beyond the physical?


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14249676 - 04/06/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Because, if there's only one substance, what you choose to call it is arbitrary. Insisting that there's one substance, but that it is matter as opposed to mind, is just a dispute over semantics. Mind and matter are both just names for what is ultimately reducible to the same thing; idealistic monism and materialistic monism are the same philosophy with different terms.

Neutral monism is the way to go. :thumbup: (Though it is essentially compatible with physicalism, and that's the term I use most often when discussing my philosophy just because it's more in line with the language of modern empirical research).


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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249692 - 04/06/11 08:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Because, if there's only one substance, what you choose to call it is arbitrary. Insisting that there's one substance, but that it is matter as opposed to mind, is just a dispute over semantics- mind and matter are both just names for what is ultimately reducible to the same thing.

Neutral monism is the way to go. :thumbup: (Though it is essentially compatible with physicalism, and that's the term I use most often when discussing my philosophy just because it's more in line with the language of modern empirical research).




So believing the mind and body are the same thing due to their purely physical existence isn't monism???


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14249701 - 04/06/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is. I'm just discussing what I perceive to be an unnecessary distinction between materialistic and idealistic monism.

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter what you call it.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14249716 - 04/06/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It is. I'm just discussing what I perceive to be an unnecessary distinction between materialistic and idealistic monism.

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter what you call it.




But why the fuck would you call everything mind? That is ridiculous for the context it has taken in language. It means something beyond the physical.

Matter has been defined as it was observed.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14251692 - 04/07/11 06:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

you cannot have mind without matter, and the idea is that all matter arises from mind. it's not mind in the sense of the individual ego like you may think, more of along the lines of what the hindis call brahman.


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OfflineFisherman
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: millzy]
    #14251698 - 04/07/11 06:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

braaaaah.....


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14251842 - 04/07/11 07:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
It is. I'm just discussing what I perceive to be an unnecessary distinction between materialistic and idealistic monism.

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter what you call it.




yeah


in the first post, "spirituality" seems to be more like what i'd call "religion" or "superstition"

part of my "spirituality" is to try to avoid religion, superstition, make believe, etc

it feels important to me, being free of that stuff, and living in real life, and so i feel that I am sort of a "spiritual" person






Quote:

The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations.





sounds like somebody is jumping to wild conclusions and beliefs much like god-fearing persons.
The volcano erupted, the volcano god must have did it. Oh, something else we don't know everything about, it must be a hallucination


where is the REAL support for this claim?


The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality because I havent personally agreed to it

might as well put that

music is a mystical experience. i guess its just a hallucination :crazy2:


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YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID



Edited by the bizzle (04/07/11 07:29 AM)


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: 4896744]
    #14251866 - 04/07/11 07:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
But why the fuck would you call everything mind? That is ridiculous for the context it has taken in language. It means something beyond the physical.

Matter has been defined as it was observed.



You could just as easily call everything mind, as all observation that defines matter has been done through the lens of our perception.

Monistic idealism, properly understood, does not imply the existence of ESP, telepathy, or other magical bullshit. If literally everything in the Universe is mind, than no one part has greater influence over the whole than any other. That's why it's a question of semantics. If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter if you call it "mind," "matter," "chocolate pudding," or "fjsdlfsejlrwej."

I just choose to call it "physical" because that's the term used most often in empirical research these days.


Edited by NetDiver (04/07/11 07:43 AM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14252062 - 04/07/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If a 'spritual' person is not happier or wiser or more moral or less fearful than a non-spiritual person, then I contend the difference is meaningless and insignificant.




You haven't met the right spiritual people yet...i can tell you, spiritual people are happier.  i'm positively joyful right now. Srsly!!!!


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14252120 - 04/07/11 09:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You haven't meet the right non-spiritual people.  If you alienate them, then you aren't gonna get to know them and know that they get along just fine.


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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: Cannashroom]
    #14252323 - 04/07/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
Spirituality is the exploration of one's self, and all experiences therein and inherently subjective.  When approached from the objective extreme, it is impossible to qualitatively or quantitatively measure this experience.  Our methods of science work very well for investigating the physical world, but fall short of the realm of personal experience.  This system has brought us great revelations about our physical world and with it great technological advances.  Since this system has brought us so much, people think it will bring an explanation to everything.  When something cannot be explained by the system, those with the most faith in it will disregard it.  The experiences of the mystical that one experiences upon their inner quest can never be objectively observed.  It is thus concluded that it is not the result of reality but just misconceptions and hallucinations. 

God will never be found on the lab bench from empirical data because it resides within our own experience and consciousness, which inherently can't be measured.  Some will reject this experience because it cannot be explained empirically.  Others will accept it as a part of the conscious experience and not look for an explanation where it cannot be given.




Here is a couple relevant quotes.:thumbup:

"Medical materialism seems indeed a good appellation for the too simple minded system of thought we are considering. Medical materialism finishes up Saint Paul by calling his vision on the road to Damascus a discharging lesion of the optical cortex, he being an epileptic. It snuffs out Saint Teresa as an hysteric, Saint Francis of Assisi as an hereditary degenerate..." -William James.

"The observations from psychedelic therapy and other forms of deep experiential work suggest an even more radical reformulation of the relationship between the human personality and spirituality. According to the new data, spirituality is an intrinsic property of the psyche that emerges quite spontaneously when the process of self exploration reaches sufficient depths....The individual who connects with these levels of his or her psyche automatically develops a new worldview, within which spirituality represents a natural, essential, and absolutely vital element of existence. In my experience, a transformation of this kind has occurred without exception in a wide range of individuals, including stubborn atheists, skeptics, cynics, Marxist philosophers, and positivistically oriented scientists."
-Stan Grof


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To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14252645 - 04/07/11 11:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
You haven't meet the right non-spiritual people.  If you alienate them, then you aren't gonna get to know them and know that they get along just fine.




i know plenty of happy people that don't think of themselves as spiritual.  Buuuut the thing is, I can identify that the reasons for their happiness are what I would consider spiritual reasons, though they might not put it that way.  And, many of these people, when times get bad and they don't understand why, will turn towards spirituality for help at some point in their lives, being well adjusted individuals and all.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14252782 - 04/07/11 12:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Again, it depends entirely on your definition of "spirituality."

Sure, everyone could use a deep feeling of awe and reverence at the mysteries of the Universe from time to time, but that does not necessarily entail believing in spirits, fairies, unicorns, ESP, astral projection, etc. It's perfectly possible to be happy without deluding yourself.


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14252799 - 04/07/11 12:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i really think the interpretation of the word "spiritual" is as subjective as spirituality itself


to me, science is spiritual; the desire to know

playing music is spiritual; there's just no explaining it. for me this has nothing to do with god or any concepts really. its just playing music

mathematics is spiritual. how could it not be? i guess in my interpretation of the word, anything that is factual is "spiritual"

i just have shifted into a tendency to call it "spiritual", because sometimes you just become grateful and humbled to be alive despite the fact that it's a challenge.
So for some people, the word is just an acknowledgment or respect for the forces that be (which, btw, is everything science is based around).




and "spiritual" is often the easiest alternative of a word for those who have shunned religion yet are awed by life.

It's not even really about what is believed. Well... to some, it is :seriousbusiness:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14252811 - 04/07/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I agree.  Spirtuality necessarily entails spirits, ghosts, ESP and the like.  Simply acknowledging, pondering and reconciling with the ineffable qualities of the human experience and existence is not sufficient to being spiritual.


Quote:

The English word spirit (from Latin spiritus "breath") has many differing meanings and connotations, all of them relating to a non-corporeal substance contrasted with the material body.




Spirituality necessarily entails the spirit, a non-corporeal substance.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14252859 - 04/07/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am." And I feel like people who are happy are very in touch with this, they know who they are and have strong hearts. Not the kind of people to go against their principles.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14253199 - 04/07/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter if you call it "mind," "matter," "chocolate pudding," or "fjsdlfsejlrwej."






O.K but how do you annul contrariety between substance and mind? Sure it's easy to just make "substance" a synonym for existence but what have you explained?

The definition of substance is matter, matter has weight and location. Experience does not have a weight or any of the other attributes of matter. They are different. A materialist believes matter explains experience while I believe experience explains matter. I think you are ignoring oversimplifying by just saying "duh substance means existence so obviously everything is substance." You easily conclude they are the same by ignoring the profound difference between the two.

You either have to explain how substance causes perception or you have to explain how perception causes matter.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14253557 - 04/07/11 02:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am."




No its not.

I suspect you are just redefining the word so that you can call yourself spiritual.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #14253559 - 04/07/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Neither one causes the other. That's the point. They are the same. Literally everything is subjective experience, and subjective experience in my mind is directly equivalent to physical sensation. Pain is frequently described as a physical sensation- in my view thoughts are sensations in exactly the same way as pains or itches or tastes. They're something you just experience without understanding.

If you don't believe me, try describing what it means to "know" something. It's just something you feel or intuitively grasp. Try to describe what it's like to be in pain- same thing. These are what philosophers call "qualia," or raw feelings.

So, literally everything is reducible to qualia, which are just sensations. If pain is physical, so are thoughts. This is exactly what you'd expect to see in a monistic Universe. Whether you call pains (or thoughts) physical or mental is entirely a matter of preference. Every experience has a corresponding brain state, too, so whatever our brains are made of, our experience is made of as well.

Perception/experience is the physical world, yes- but that doesn't mean perception creates the physical world. The two are just equivalent. That also means that the physical world is perception (If A = B, then B = A), which is exactly what physicalist theory proposes.


Edited by NetDiver (04/07/11 03:00 PM)


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14253682 - 04/07/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

. If pain is physical, so are thoughts




It's not physical though its qualia like you pointed out. Bottom line is it's experience not substance. It's only called physical pain because it is caused by the "physical" external world. The cause is claimed to by physical but by no means is it physical in the sense that it is matter or substance, again it is an experience.
Quote:

So, literally everything is reducible to qualia, which are just sensations.



Then what is causing the qualia? When you experiencing seeing red is there not an exteral cause of your experience of the red? Materialists say it EMF and it is a substance what do you say is the external cause of the internal qualia?


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14253712 - 04/07/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Perception/experience is the physical world, yes- but that doesn't mean perception creates the physical world.




Yeah I can agree with that. It is similar ot how ,atter does not create space but space IS matter, space is a concept which is a by-product of the existence of matter and the "physical" is a by-product of the existence of perception. Perception is what really exists then would you not agree??


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14253827 - 04/07/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Spirituality necessarily entails the spirit, a non-corporeal substance




ok. the first time i smoked weed, I experience consciousness itself as a non-corporeal substance, or spirit. I had never realized before that that is the nature of everything. My aim is to discover more about this, what i am, and embody it through music. That is my spirituality.


so, it doesn't have anything to do with ghosts, gods, demons, angels, ufos, or anything a rational person could find ridiculous. Although, you might call it ESP, being that it involves experiencing things beyond our usual senses, but that's just semantics again


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: the bizzle]
    #14253845 - 04/07/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think that a general non-corporeal substance has very much to do with ghosts, gods, demons and angles.  They are the quintessential non-corporeal substances.

What you describe, I would classify as philosophy not spirituality.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14254790 - 04/07/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

iThink said:
But why the fuck would you call everything mind? That is ridiculous for the context it has taken in language. It means something beyond the physical.

Matter has been defined as it was observed.



You could just as easily call everything mind, as all observation that defines matter has been done through the lens of our perception.

Monistic idealism, properly understood, does not imply the existence of ESP, telepathy, or other magical bullshit. If literally everything in the Universe is mind, than no one part has greater influence over the whole than any other. That's why it's a question of semantics. If there's just one substance, it doesn't matter if you call it "mind," "matter," "chocolate pudding," or "fjsdlfsejlrwej."

I just choose to call it "physical" because that's the term used most often in empirical research these days.




Yes, you are technically right. But why would you be against materialism? Matter is the accepted term used in science, so I don't see how you can call it stupid because it is technically semantics, as is all language.


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14254875 - 04/07/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am."




No its not.

I suspect you are just redefining the word so that you can call yourself spiritual.




i bet it has more to do with the context in which the term was applied in his experience prior to this forum


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: DieCommie]
    #14256416 - 04/07/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Indeed, and I didn't start calling myself spiritual until I found out what spirit actually is. It's your being, your sense of "i am."




No its not.

I suspect you are just redefining the word so that you can call yourself spiritual.




Nope lol, I don't want to be considered spiritual, the word really has developed quite organically in my life. And being really is spirit, keep your mind quiet and focus on your being in the moment and that's it right there.  It's the base consciousness, the simple isness that permeates all.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: g00ru]
    #14257356 - 04/08/11 07:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

^ Saying that an "is-ness permeates all" is basically just saying "existence exists." That's not spirit, it's a truism. Existence couldn't possibly not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle


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Offlinethe bizzle
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14257634 - 04/08/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
^ Saying that an "is-ness permeates all" is basically just saying "existence exists." That's not spirit, it's a truism. Existence couldn't possibly not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle




yes, but to many, this is a foundation of "spirituality"

why do i consider myself a "spiritual" person? simply acknowledging that there even is an "isness"




the literal definition of "spirituality", (which many of you seem to be equating wth religion and/or belief in ufos and ghosts) is not as important in terms of society, as contextual meaning




here is something I heard on TV yesterday:

"we had a spiritual conversation.

i told him he can believe in himself

YOU HAVE the power to overcome obesity"


it is involving personal discovery and most importantly in this example, willpower. Some apparently call this philosophy, some call it spirituality. :shrug:

i guess you call it spirituality when you wanna talk about it in a less debate-oriented environment? :confused:


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14257682 - 04/08/11 09:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
^ Saying that an "is-ness permeates all" is basically just saying "existence exists." That's not spirit, it's a truism. Existence couldn't possibly not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle




It's not a truism, it's the truth.  It's not just a mental recognition.  You can truly experience this isness as synonymous with being, with your own self, as synonymous with bliss and love.  I've got no way of proving that except to tell you to focus on the feeling "i am" for as long as you can, as often as you can.  But I swear, it's totally true :cool:


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14257939 - 04/08/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
It's not physical though its qualia like you pointed out. Bottom line is it's experience not substance. It's only called physical pain because it is caused by the "physical" external world. The cause is claimed to by physical but by no means is it physical in the sense that it is matter or substance, again it is an experience.
...
Then what is causing the qualia? When you experiencing seeing red is there not an exteral cause of your experience of the red? Materialists say it EMF and it is a substance what do you say is the external cause of the internal qualia?



You're still thinking too dualistically. "It is experience as opposed to matter." What I'm saying is that matter is experience, and experience is matter. Qualia = the physical world, and vice versa- the physical world = qualia. This is monism, and speaking monistically, it doesn't matter if you call it "experience," "qualia," or "matter," it's all the same. Everything being equally constituted, it's up to empirical research to determine the specific makeup of our experiences (i.e. if you cut out part X of the brain, then you will be fucked up in Y way).

I think you're holding to an outdated notion of "substance," too. Matter is no longer thought of as discrete chunks, or hard little balls of "stuff." It's more like forces acting on each other, and probabilities of making certain measurements at certain times. It's all described mathematically, and accurately models the conditions of our experience.

This monistic philosophy is exactly why I find notions of spiritualism unbelievable. Spiritualism automatically implies dualism. If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other. Dualism is required to change that, to make specific things more magical/special than others. Why is the cross holy while some random chunk of wood isn't? Well, obviously the cross is magically imbued with the holy essence of Jesus, which is supposedly some sort of other type of stuff that we cannot measure, hear, touch, etc- that might as well not exist at all. It has a dual essence- matter and spirit. And from my perspective, dualism is just plain wrong.

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Perception is what really exists then would you not agree??



The physical world = perception. But that also means that perception = the physical world. The two are the same (A=B, so B=A). And that is perfectly in line with scientific physicalism.


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Edited by NetDiver (04/08/11 10:57 AM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14258098 - 04/08/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ya everything has being, but the same perfume doesn't arise out of everything.  And some perfumes are so amazing that they are referred to as divine or holy, even if ultimately those terms could apply to anything.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14258570 - 04/08/11 01:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The physical world = perception. But that also means that perception = the physical world. The two are the same (A=B, so B=A). And that is perfectly in line with scientific physicalism.



You say all what you know is all that what exists and all that exists is all that you know ?


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14276086 - 04/12/11 01:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


I think you're holding to an outdated notion of "substance," too. Matter is no longer thought of as discrete chunks, or hard little balls of "stuff." It's more like forces acting on each other, and probabilities of making certain measurements at certain times. It's all described mathematically, and accurately models the conditions of our experience.





So what exactly are you saying here. Are you saying matter is the result of forces acting on one another? and mathematical laws and probabilities? How can these things have an existence of their own apart from matter which is suppose to be all that exists?

You claim a position of monism yet you claim forces and mathematical probabilities exist independently of matter?

You say I'm thinking too dualistically but IMO you are thinking to simplistically. What have you explained? If matter is the result of the forces then how do the forces exist? what do they exist in ? what is cause and what is effect? What is the one thing that exists independently of anything else?

Quote:

This monistic philosophy is exactly why I find notions of spiritualism unbelievable. Spiritualism automatically implies dualism. If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other. Dualism is required to change that, to make specific things more magical/special than others




No, your partial perspective of spiritual truths implies dualism. The advanced spiritual philosophies claim that this world is an illusion, this entire world of duality is an illusion and therefore duality does not exist it merely appears to exist.

Quote:

If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other.




Everything is equal, in reality, but we're not in reality, we're in duality, the big illusion.


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14277469 - 04/12/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How did what I say imply that mathematical laws and probability exist apart from matter? They are a part of our ability for abstract thinking (which is just another physical sense, in the same way as other qualia) and just another way of describing our perspective which, again, is reducible to qualia.

All of your questions about "how and why the forces exist" are basically nonsense questions. We're describing what we see as best we can; "forces" are descriptions of what we observe, rather than a replacement for deities. Asking what they're made of and what they exist in doesn't make any sense, because again, it all reduces back to ways of predicting and describing your experience, which is called both qualia and matter.


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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14280916 - 04/12/11 10:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

there are more qualias that you can discover as you clear your mind more and more.  This seems pretty logical to me...common sense really


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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: NetDiver]
    #14293572 - 04/15/11 12:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How did what I say imply that mathematical laws and probability exist apart from matter? They are a part of our ability for abstract thinking (which is just another physical sense, in the same way as other qualia) and just another way of describing our perspective which, again, is reducible to qualia.




Well you said I seem to have an outdated notion of substance.

Quote:

I think you're holding to an outdated notion of "substance," too. Matter is no longer thought of as discrete chunks, or hard little balls of "stuff." It's more like forces acting on each other, and probabilities of making certain measurements at certain times. It's all described mathematically, and accurately models the conditions of our experience.






What you said here led me to think substance doees not exist apart from the forces but is instead a result of forces acting on one another, hence the forces exist prior to substance. You seem to be describing different states of matter, the forces act on substance and create the different manifestation of matter but substance is still substance. The truth is I really don't understand what the modern notion of substance is because I don't think anyone really has an understanding of what it is apart from our experience of matter. But this is what you are getting at right? Matter does not exist apart from our experience because experience is matter. Still I do not think you understand the real implications of what your theory.

The way I see it is experience is the fundamental existence and the material is a sort of implication of the fact experience exist. The concepts up and down cannot exist without matter and in reality they do not exist, similarly matter does not really exist but is really an abstraction that exists within experience.

Overall I think I understand where you are coming from and really like it. I just think you embrace the "material" side of experience while ignoring experience itself and ignore that it has a completely different dynamic then the physical and is actually the cause of the forces which govern and shape the physical world.

Quote:

This monistic philosophy is exactly why I find notions of spiritualism unbelievable. Spiritualism automatically implies dualism. If everything is made of the same substance, then everything is equal- no one part or object is more magical or special than any other. Dualism is required to change that, to make specific things more magical/special than others






Because the same substance is manifested in different forms. In it's unmanlfest state it is perception\experience in its manifested state it is the external object of that perception which is full of reactivities. Anyway you are criticizing a very primitive spiritualism, the higher schools of thought all say there is only ONE existence. Thats the whole point, transcend the illusion. Your brain exists within and apart of the manifestation of substance in all its various forms, some are good and some are bad for your brain and your brain controls your experience. Severe your experience from your brain and you are liberated.

Quote:

All of your questions about "how and why the forces exist" are basically nonsense questions. We're describing what we see as best we can; "forces" are descriptions of what we observe, rather than a replacement for deities. 




How is it nonsense? Should we just accept that forces of gravity exist and not inquire as to why they exist? Or should we just be able to describe how they operate instead of why they operate - as you put it.

Quote:

Asking what they're made of and what they exist in doesn't make any sense, because again, it all reduces back to ways of predicting and describing your experience, which is called both qualia and matter.




I agree with that because the forces do not exist IN substance nor are they MADE of substance but instead are caused by PERCEPTION which is not substance.

Anyway I think were both looking at different sides of the same coin here.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero]
    #14293584 - 04/15/11 12:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That's cool. We have a science class at our college called "The Limits of Science"

I haven't personally taken it yet, and my favorite biology doctor is the instructor!

I'll prob check it out after summer.


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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: teknix]
    #14293606 - 04/15/11 12:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think that it is an important course and would do you very well.


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Re: Reductionist rejection of spirituality [Re: soldatheero] * 1
    #14294352 - 04/15/11 06:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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