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OfflinexFrockx
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Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment?
    #14243975 - 04/05/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Does one need to be intelligent to be able to be enlightened, or can even the lowest functioning thinkers achieve enlightenment?

Why or why not?

(When making your decision, please let us know what you consider enlightenment to be so this conversation will be useful, and not just a lot of people shitting into a lake. Just for fun, also include if you have ever interacted with people who are intellectually disabled.)


Edited by xFrockx (04/05/11 07:52 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14244028 - 04/05/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Before attempting to answer your question, you would first have to show that enlightenment is possible and a way to measure such. If you cannot do that, this will be yet another circle-jerk thread.


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244085 - 04/05/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Does one need to be intelligent to be able to be enlightened, or can even the lowest functioning thinkers achieve enlightenment?

Why or why not?

(When making your decision, please let us know what you consider enlightenment to be so this conversation will be useful, and not just a lot of people shitting into a lake. Just for fun, also include if you have ever interacted with people who are intellectually disabled.)




i don't believe intelligence to be a measure of some spiritual ability. i liken enlightenment to an experience within a particular moment.  during these moments of "enlightenment", there is no intelligence, there is no 'thought', so i would say, no, you don't need to be intelligent to be enlightened. 

now for example, you may give an absurd amount of acid or mushrooms to a mentally challenged person, and in those moments, they may experience what they personally might liken to enlightenment, but only once this experience is over may they intellectually analyze their experience.

during the experience there is no thought, no intelligence, no memory.  there is only the current moment, and only when this moment ends is there the ability to even comprehend that what you experienced was any different from your normal daily existence, just like a dream...

hopefully that makes sense


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14244116 - 04/05/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"you would first have to show that enlightenment is possible and a way to measure such"

To do this, one would have to define what enlightenment is. That's why I've asked everyone to provide the definition they are using. Otherwise, your request for proving the possiblity and measurement of this as-yet-defined state is nothing more than a request for another circle-jerk.

Derp de derp.


Edited by xFrockx (04/05/11 08:13 PM)


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14244126 - 04/05/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why can't there be a discussion involving the philosophical concept of enlightenment?? This is a philosophy forum not a scientific one there is no need for scientific proofs only logical arguments are required.

Regarding OP's question

I believe that in general, extremes denote a lack of spiritual advancement. If the person is is considerably lacking intellectually or if a person is overly intellectual then it is likely they have much work to do. In the one case the person thinks to much and feels to little and in the other the opposite. Personally I believe some life times the intellect is restricted to allow for the advancing of the "spirit" or "heart and in other life times knowledge is meant to develop.

I believe we oscillate between opposites, when we are left unsatisfied with one approach we seek satisfaction in it's opposite. Hence the sign of a spiritually advanced is balance, balance between masculine\feminine, intellectual\emotional\ and etcetera.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244127 - 04/05/11 08:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"now for example, you may give an absurd amount of acid or mushrooms to a mentally challenged person, and in those moments, they may experience what they personally might liken to enlightenment, but only once this experience is over may they intellectually analyze their experience.

during the experience there is no thought, no intelligence, no memory.  there is only the current moment, and only when this moment ends is there the ability to even comprehend that what you experienced was any different from your normal daily existence, just like a dream..."

By this definition wouldn't some intellectually disabled people who do not have the ability to think be "stuck" on enlightenment? I.E. in the present moment? By this definition, I emphasize.


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244187 - 04/05/11 08:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

By this definition wouldn't some intellectually disabled people who do not have the ability to think be "stuck" on enlightenment? I.E. in the present moment? By this definition, I emphasize.




sure, like a schizo for instance, whose experience relates to that of a shaman who embraces these experiences, then hones and masters these states of mind.

people who are considered 'genius' may be on the opposite end of the spectrum.  there mind is more conditioned to experience these states of mind because of the way they think, so possibly they are 'stuck' in enlightened states during periods of their lives.


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244211 - 04/05/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I believe we oscillate between opposites, when we are left unsatisfied with one approach we seek satisfaction in it's opposite. Hence the sign of a spiritually advanced is balance, balance between masculine\feminine, intellectual\emotional\ and etcetera. "

How are intellectual and emotional opposites? I've met I.D. people who were flat, as well as emotional rollercoasters, and intellectual people who were flat, and were emotional rollercoasters. Does intellectuality have anything at all to do with emotionality?


Edited by xFrockx (04/05/11 08:29 PM)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244230 - 04/05/11 08:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"people who are considered 'genius' may be on the opposite end of the spectrum.  there mind is more conditioned to experience these states of mind because of the way they think, so possibly they are 'stuck' in enlightened states during periods of their lives. "

Wouldn't "geniuses" be thinking a lot? Is this conclusion I quoted consistent with your definition of enlightenment as not thinking?


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244245 - 04/05/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i think they are related in that your emotions tend to have an influence when it comes to the way you choose to be intellectualized..


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244248 - 04/05/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But does being smart mean that a person has more control over their emotions? I've worked with I.D. people who actually put themselves in restraints when they sense themselves getting out of control. I've seen college professors that couldn't stifle themselves if someone held a gun to their head.



Edited by xFrockx (04/05/11 08:35 PM)


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244264 - 04/05/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

surely, not thinking=stillness of thought and mind.

now a genius surely may be thinking before and after these enlightened experiences, but during the experience their mind has become still.

but the way they have reached these enlightened states of mind have been directly influenced by the way they think, so that each has his own path.


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244274 - 04/05/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"now a genius surely may be thinking before and after these enlightened experiences, but during the experience their mind has become still."

So then according to this those with permanently still minds a la a physical disability would be permanently enlightened, no?


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244283 - 04/05/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
But does being smart mean that a person has more control over their emotions?

in my opinion a smart person has attained a very good understanding of themselves.

maybe they don't have more control over their emotions because of their intelligence, just more control over their REACTION to emotions.


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244296 - 04/05/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"in my opinion a smart person has attained a very good understanding of themselves.

maybe they don't have more control over their emotions because of their intelligence, just more control over their REACTION to emotions. "

Ok then, what is your defintion of smart then? It seems like many people use a definition that has nothing to do with self-mastery. For some people being smart is more about book-mastery. There's nothing wrong with either, but what are you working with here to define smart?


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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244313 - 04/05/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well they are defintely not mathamatical opposites but I'v always thought there is a relationship. People who intellectualize everything are more likely to rationalize and dissassemble an experience using logic, where as someone who does not use the intellect as much they will not question or probe at why something makes them feel happy, they will just go with it. They do not use intellect to "cancel out" their feelings.

Also love is not necessarily "logical". It's been said that those who are in love are intoxicated. Love is not a product of the intellectual mind it is spontaneous. Intellect can be controlled by will. If you are constantly thinking you are not doing as much feeling.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244316 - 04/05/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"now a genius surely may be thinking before and after these enlightened experiences, but during the experience their mind has become still."

So then according to this those with permanently still minds a la a physical disability would be permanently enlightened, no?





now this may be a possibility, and it would be very interesting to analyze the experience those who are disabled have as compared to those who aren't disabled.

perhaps because of their disability they interpret what we call enlightenment in a completely different way than you or i?


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedesert father
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244324 - 04/05/11 08:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i'd say self mastery is a much better show of intelligence than the ability to memorize facts from a book


--------------------
vi veri veniversum vivus vici

What she said :
"I smoke 'cos I'm hoping for an
Early death
AND I NEED TO CLING TO SOMETHING !"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244364 - 04/05/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"i'd say self mastery is a much better show of intelligence than the ability to memorize facts from a book"

What is intelligence if self-mastery indicates it better than book learning?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Intellectually disabled people: Closer to or Farther from enlightenment? [Re: desert father]
    #14244398 - 04/05/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"now this may be a possibility, and it would be very interesting to analyze the experience those who are disabled have as compared to those who aren't disabled."

I've worked with both lots, in all I think the differences are exaggerated, but some people with I.D. have the unique position of being exempt from most social norms that occupy the time of people who developed normally. As a result, many are more connected to emotions of people, and less self-absorbed. Many people with I.D. know immediately when someone around them is having a bad day. It makes hiding emotions difficult or impossible. I do say "some" because not all people with I.D. are even remotely the same. The differences are as wide as the difference between people without I.D. Some are legitimately self-absorbed, just as some people without I.D. are genuinely not.

"perhaps because of their disability they interpret what we call enlightenment in a completely different way than you or i?"

Its unlikely that how one interprets enlightenment has much to do with achieving the actual state if such a state does exist. Just as how one interprets sadness has little to do with the experience of being sad.


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