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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #14243473 - 04/05/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
So are you an agnostic or an atheist, Poid?




They are not mutually exclusive.  You can be both.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14243501 - 04/05/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

...a person can disbelieve in gods (atheism) without claiming to know for sure that no gods can or do exist; the result is agnostic atheism.

That's me. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243507 - 04/05/11 06:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Agnostic.




Hey, me too! :crazyeyes:

Quote:

Most people IME who believe in God would disagree with your definition BTW. :osama:




This isn't really my personal definition though, it's been the definition used by learned men since the dawn of theism.

The problem with today's theism is the departure of reason. It started around the end of the middle ages, when secular, universalist institutions of learning began to draw thinkers away from the churches, which were left with nothing but ancient dogma, empty ritual, and indignant charlatans.

I believe atheists make a huge mistake by pandering to the primitive thought process embraced by religious fundamentalists. As the saying goes - argue with an idiot and he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. In this way, atheists contribute to the growth of religious fundamentalism we are seeing today.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243560 - 04/05/11 06:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I believe atheists make a huge mistake by pandering to the primitive thought process embraced by religious fundamentalists. As the saying goes - argue with an idiot and he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. In this way, atheists contribute to the growth of religious fundamentalism we are seeing today.


And you agree that religious fundamentalism is a bad thing, right?


I really cannot understand the mindset of one who believes that atheism is worse than theism, or of one who believes that atheism is in any way, shape, or form a bad thing...
:septemberlol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243583 - 04/05/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Again, I'm not saying extroverted atheism is worse than religious fundamentalism. I hold them about equally atrocious. One is the mirror-image of the other.

I should clarify, in light of the above statement, that I have no problem with introverted atheism. If anything it is probably a mark of intelligence. Similar to how the anus is a mark of highly-evolved metabolism.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243628 - 04/05/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Again, I'm not saying extroverted atheism is worse than religious fundamentalism. I hold them about equally atrocious. One is the mirror-image of the other.


Did you just make up the term "extroverted atheism"? How is it equally as atrocious as religious fundamentalism? How many extroverted atheists have killed in the name of atheism?


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I should clarify, in light of the above statement, that I have no problem with introverted atheism. If anything it is probably a mark of intelligence. Similar to how the anus is a mark of highly-evolved metabolism.


What is the difference between extroverted, and introverted atheism? May you define them for me? :goatse:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243667 - 04/05/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, I just made up the expression "extroverted atheism." By it I mean atheism which is extroverted: projected onto others by use of language and action.

(Strong examples of extroverted atheism as a violent, dangerous thing, peer with religious fundamentalism, can be found in the examples of Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.)

By "introverted atheism" I mean that atheism which is personal and internalized, not commonly shared with and never imposed upon others.

It's all the difference between an anus that is covered up by pants and a :goatse:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243697 - 04/05/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Yeah, I just made up the expression "extroverted atheism." By it I mean atheism which is extroverted: projected onto others by use of language and action.

(Strong examples of extroverted atheism as a violent, dangerous thing, peer with religious fundamentalism, can be found in the examples of Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.)


So what exactly did Stalin and Mao do? Did they kill in the name of atheism? If they were trying to rid their societies of religion, why would that necessarily be a bad thing? Religion is a plague; fuck religion. :thebird:


:septemberlol::osama::arabs:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/05/11 07:09 PM)

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243746 - 04/05/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Religion was banned and persecuted during the times of Mao and Stalin. So yes, they killed in the name of atheism, because they believed their societies would be better-off without religion.

(They felt this way because they read it in a book called The Communist Manifesto - see a pattern emerging here?)

I think it was a bad thing to do, personally. Mao and Stalin both thought they knew better than their people. I feel quite comfortable saying they did in fact not know better than their people, and they proved this by starving tens of millions of innocents to death through forced collectivization. They confiscated all of their people's farming equipment, relocated it to huge industrialized communes, and in the meantime people died because food production dried up.

It's all on the same spectrum of rapacious ideology IMO. :shrug:

Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 07:15 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance] * 1
    #14243778 - 04/05/11 07:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Mao also invaded Tibet, citing that religion is the enemy of progress.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243782 - 04/05/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Religion was banned and persecuted during the times of Mao and Stalin. So yes, they killed in the name of atheism, because they believed their societies would be better-off without religion.


Are you not understanding why I keep using the :septemberlol: graemlin?

Obviously, religion is detrimental to humanity/society, so attempting to get rid of it before it gets out of hand (e.g. :osama:) is a good thing.

Also, just because they persecuted religious people doesn't necessarily mean that they did so in the name of atheism; as Silversoul noted earlier in this thread, there is a difference between atheism and anti-theism.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I think it was a bad thing to do, personally. Mao and Stalin both thought they knew better than their people. I feel quite comfortable saying they did in fact not know better than their people, and they proved this by starving tens of millions of innocents to death through forced collectivization.


The idiots should have dropped their stupid beliefs. :shrug:

This only goes to show how fucking retarded religion is, and religious people are.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
It's all on the same spectrum of rapacious ideology IMO. :shrug:


It's not the same, at all; atheism is not an ideology.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14243808 - 04/05/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The point I was trying to make much earlier in the thread (around page 2 or 3) is that :osama: and :septemberlol: are not religious problems, but social and political problems. Nowhere in the Quran does it say "And lo, the mideast shall be plagued with tens of millions of illiterate, hungry orphans; and they shall righteously smite themselves into the skyscrapers of the more fortunate." I explained my position in that matter as well as I could, so you might want to re-read it; if it still doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say. :shrug:

Quote:

Kickle said:
Mao also invaded Tibet, citing that religion is the enemy of progress.




So I guess religion IS to blame! :shocked:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243844 - 04/05/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
The point I was trying to make much earlier in the thread (around page 2 or 3) is that :osama: and :septemberlol: are not religious problems, but social and political problems.


The exact same could be said about Stalin and Mao; religion is a social problem, BTW.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Nowhere in the Quran does it say "And lo, the mideast shall be plagued with tens of millions of illiterate, hungry orphans; and they shall righteously hurl themselves into the skyscrapers of the more fortunate."


But it does say to kill infidels. Explicitly. Several times.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I explained my position in that matter as well as I could, so you might want to re-read it; if it still doesn't make sense, I don't know what else to say. :shrug:


They killed infidels in the name of Allah; I don't know why it's easy for you to blame atheism for what Stalin and Mao did, yet so hard for you to blame religion for what happened on 9/11. :shrug2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/05/11 07:32 PM)

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243869 - 04/05/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't blame atheism for Stalin and Mao. I simply pointed out an association between their atheism and the atrocities they committed against humanity. It would be no more appropriate to blame their atrocities on their atheism than it would be to blame the atrocities of desperate, sociopathic Arabs on their religion. :shrug:

To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on a small band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare among the Arab tribes.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 07:36 PM)

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243887 - 04/05/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I didn't blame atheism for Stalin and Mao. I simply pointed out an association between their atheism and the atrocities they committed against humanity.


OK, so how does this mean that atheism is an ugly thing?


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
It would be no more appropriate to blame their atrocities on their atheism than it would be to blame the atrocities of desperate, sociopathic Arabs on their religion. :shrug:


It could be blamed on their anti-theism, not their atheism; it is very appropriate to blame the atrocities caused by Muslims in the name of their religion on their religion. Again, by your logic, the erection of mosques cannot be blamed on Islam; both the atrocities that occurred on 9/11 and the erection of mosques were done in the name of Islam, so they can both be blamed on Islam.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on the radical band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare.


Is this just your personal interpretation, or do you have a source to back it up?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243920 - 04/05/11 07:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Atheism is an ugly thing because theism of any shade is a hole, like an anus, which excretes hazardous psychological waste material, which goes uncovered.

I can accept nudism as a morally valid practice, but even nudists don't go around sticking their assholes in each other's faces.

(Can you tell how proud I am of myself for coming up with that anal analogy? :hehehe:)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on the radical band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare.


Is this just your personal interpretation, or do you have a source to back this up?




Wikipedia is not generally accepted as a source in scholarly works, but since we're just shooting the shit here on the Shroomery I'll leave it up to you to follow up on the sources used by these wikipedia articles if you so desire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_before_Medina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14243938 - 04/05/11 07:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Atheism is an ugly thing because it is a hole, like an anus, which excretes hazardous psychological waste material, which goes uncovered.


How is it any of that? :lol:


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I can accept nudism as a morally valid set of practices, but even nudists don't go around sticking their assholes in each other's faces.


Religion is a problem for humanity/society; wearing clothes is not.


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
(Can you tell how proud I am of myself for coming up with that anal analogy? :hehehe:)


Haha. :smirk:


Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Tchan909 said:
To bring up page 2 again, the "infidels" referred to in the Quran are the polytheists who waged aggressive war on the radical band of monotheists, led by Mohammad, who called for an end to religious warfare.


Is this just your personal interpretation, or do you have a source to back this up?




Wikipedia is not generally accepted as a source in scholarly works, but since we're just shooting the shit here on the Shroomery I'll leave it up to you to follow up on the sources used by these wikipedia articles if you so desire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_before_Medina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans


I'd rather you just quote the relevant sections, thank you.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14243988 - 04/05/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

GOD!

Quote:

Conservative opposition arose to Muhammad's speeches. According to Ibn Sad, the opposition in Mecca started when Muhammad delivered verses that "spoke shamefully of the idols they [the Meccans] worshiped other than [God] and mentioned the perdition of their fathers who died in disbelief."[68] According to Watt, as the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad's denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[63]

Some of the ranking and influential leaders of the Quraysh tried (but failed) to come to some arrangements with Muhammad in exchange for abandoning his preaching. They offered him admission into the inner circle of merchants and establishing his position in the circle by an advantageous marriage, but Muhammad refused.[63] During this period, Muhammad urged his followers to be pacifist, commanding them to "deal gently with the infidels".




I used to be pretty vitriolically opposed to all forms of religion myself, but the more I study and learn, the more I realize we're just repeating the same cycle over and over again, and the culprit is not any given religion but actually simple human nature. :shrug:

I'm a transhumanist. :smirk:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14244048 - 04/05/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
GOD!

Quote:

Conservative opposition arose to Muhammad's speeches. According to Ibn Sad, the opposition in Mecca started when Muhammad delivered verses that "spoke shamefully of the idols they [the Meccans] worshiped other than [God] and mentioned the perdition of their fathers who died in disbelief."[68] According to Watt, as the ranks of Muhammad's followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad's denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[63]

Some of the ranking and influential leaders of the Quraysh tried (but failed) to come to some arrangements with Muhammad in exchange for abandoning his preaching. They offered him admission into the inner circle of merchants and establishing his position in the circle by an advantageous marriage, but Muhammad refused.[63] During this period, Muhammad urged his followers to be pacifist, commanding them to "deal gently with the infidels".





Infidel
Quote:

The Arabic word kafir (literally the one who "covers", usually translated as "disbeliever"[citation needed] ) is the Muslim term commonly translated into English as infidel. In the Islamic doctrinal sense, the term refers to a person who does not recognize the one God (Allah) - atheists and polytheists.




Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I used to be pretty vitriolically opposed to all forms of religion myself, but the more I study and learn, the more I realize we're just repeating the same cycle over and over again, and the culprit is not any given religion but actually simple human nature. :shrug:


And this excuses religion, how? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14244056 - 04/05/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Blaming religion for violence is part of the selfsame cycle of violence that results in new religions.

Humans have a pathological "problem-solution" mentality manifesting in solutions that have direr consequences than the original problems.

Yesterday's solutions are today's problems... it has always been thus.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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