Home | Community | Message Board


Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Anonymous

Democracy
    #1424348 - 04/02/03 10:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

what do you think?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424381 - 04/02/03 10:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe it's not right to answer a question with a question, but...

Does wrong become right merely because the majority approves?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Democracy [Re: Evolving]
    #1424405 - 04/02/03 10:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i say no.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424416 - 04/02/03 11:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Does wrong become right merely because the majority approves?

The majority decides what's right and wrong - that's democracy, it only works when people aren't morons. That's why is doesn't work.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424461 - 04/02/03 11:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

::thumbs down::

anarchy, the only way to live free.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424543 - 04/02/03 11:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

has it occured to you that from prehistorical 'anarchy' is where all of those ancient despotic monarchies arose?

we need a government to protect anarchy...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424552 - 04/02/03 11:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

If not the people, who?

Think carefully before you answer.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRadioActiveSlug
addict

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 530
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424582 - 04/02/03 11:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Democracy, like communism, is a good idea and works in Theory.

however we don't live in a democractic society any more than the folks in the USSR once lived in a communist one.

what we need is a system of goverment, that spreads power out so equally that no one can ever gain a majority of influence over an entire nation.

FOr me i think that giving power back to the states, and turning the federal goverment into a much weaker thing that it was intended to be would bring liberty back to this country,

wanna smoke pot? go to cali,
wanna be gay and get married? go to vermont
wanna have sex with your 14 year old cousin? go to alabama


although this could bring up enviormental concers like in delaware for instance (which is actually delaware inc. now if you can beleive it) cooperations have such a foot hold, thy changed all the laws there and are dumping chemicals now legally in DE, most the chemical end up in the jersey shore. Even when dupot gets caught dumping thing that are insanely hazardous, the cost of the fines is far less than the cost of propper disposal, so most often, they plan of getting caught, and lol, the fines can be used as TAX write offs!!!!!

got this from google;
"While the overall cancer incidence rate in Delaware is 10 percent above the estimated
national rate, the lung cancer rate in Delaware is 35 percent higher"

from all the chems plants




--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFatNug
Si-Hing

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 150
Loc: Everywhere at 1nce
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Democracy [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1424714 - 04/03/03 12:34 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ah yes Delaware, home sweet home!!!! GOD I gotta get out of here, someone PLEASE sponser me for Canadian citizenship before I get lung cancer. I've had Bronchitis 5 times in the last 2 years.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


Edited by FatNug (04/03/03 12:42 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424797 - 04/03/03 12:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The word "democracy" is the subject of more hair-splitting than just about any word on this forum. We all may agree that here in the United States we don't have a "pure democracy" (aka "mob rules", as implied by Evolving's question), but I don't understand how anyone could deny that the United States' political system is not a form of democracy. It's a republic based on principles of democracy, held in check by the constitution, which among other things protects the rights of individuals from the whims of the often fickle majority.

Or am I wrong--is there no evidence of democracy found in our system?

By the way, I say that no matter what system in place, if the majority of the people are uninterested or uninformed, the system won't fly for long.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424806 - 04/03/03 12:57 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think the question should be--if not democracy, then what?

I personally prefer to go by what Winston Churchill once said: "Democracy is the worst system of government possible, except for all those others which have been tried." Or something like that.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Democracy [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1424815 - 04/03/03 12:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

what we need is a system of goverment, that spreads power out so equally that no one can ever gain a majority of influence over an entire nation.

FOr me i think that giving power back to the states, and turning the federal goverment into a much weaker thing that it was intended to be would bring liberty back to this country,




I like your ideas.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy [Re: RadioActiveSlug]
    #1424818 - 04/03/03 12:59 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Democracy, like communism, is a good idea and works in Theory.



(I'm gonna rant a little here, nothing personal)
Why is democracy (or communism) considered by some to be a good idea? In a purely democratic (or purely communist) society if 51% of the people decide to cannibalize the other 49% would this be right or just? Fascism works in theory as well as reality, monarchy works in theory as well as in reality. It's not a question of whether or not something works, dictatorships work.

Is democracy any guarantee of the protection of the minority? Is democracy any guarantee of justice? How does democracy protect against racism? What happens when the masses learn that they can live off of the productive powers of the minority? Does democracy preclude slavery?

Democracy in it's purest form is but a variety of mob rule. Doesn't history demonstrate the delusion and madness of the masses? Were Semmelweis' ideas popularly accepted? No. Was Adolph Hitler democratically elected? Yes.

Quote:

what we need is a system of goverment, that spreads power out so equally that no one can ever gain a majority of influence over an entire nation.



Yes. Democracy's role should be as a big fat check on power, not as an exercise of power. Too much power vested in anything, be it the masses, corporations, or wives is a dangerous thing.

Quote:

FOr me i think that giving power back to the states, and turning the federal goverment into a much weaker thing that it was intended to be would bring liberty back to this country,



Agreed, but how do we keep power from being grabbed by the a central power as has happened in the past in this country (as well as in countries throughout history)? Should we officially recognize the inalienable right of seccession? Would this act as a sufficient brake on the power grabbers?

Quote:

although this could bring up enviormental concers...



Could we consider air pollution or water pollution as a form of trespass? This is an area where the tort system should be utilized to it's fullest extent. Corporations are often used as a cover to avoid personal responsibility. This should not be allowed. Corporations are a legal fiction and should not be granted any rights above those of the people that compose them.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Democracy [Re: Evolving]
    #1424831 - 04/03/03 01:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'm still waiting to hear an answer to my question. Anybody can feel free to answer.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1424857 - 04/03/03 01:13 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If not the people, who?

Think carefully before you answer.



Individuals should be allowed to determine their own course. Why should you be ruled by the masses? Why should 70% of the people who want war take your money under threat of jail (or if you resist, death) to wage war on a people who you have no grudge with?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (04/03/03 01:14 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Democracy [Re: Evolving]
    #1424910 - 04/03/03 01:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

If not the people, who?

Think carefully before you answer.



Individuals should be allowed to determine their own course. Why should you be ruled by the masses? Why should 70% of the people who want war take your money under threat of jail (or if you resist, death) to wage war on a people who you have no grudge with?




That's all well and good, but how specifically should this be accomplished? I'm not trying be antagonistic. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. But in the interests of truth I will do my darndest to find holes in whatever you present, because nobody should accept grand plans and schemes uncritically.

Based on the comments you just made, I would assume you were an anarchist. I know you well enough to know that isn't the case. I assume you believe that some form of government should exist. Governments have constitutions and governments have laws. So the obvious questions are:

Who writes the constitution?
Who writes the laws?
Who interprets the laws?
Who selects the people who will interpret those laws?

These are perennial questions of governance. They cannot be sidestepped. Democracy is imperfect--nobody would argue with that. But in order to create a more perfect system of governance, these are questions that have to be answered.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator
 Arcade Champion: Skeleton Park, Space Hunter

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424933 - 04/03/03 01:41 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"3 foxes and a hen get together and decide what's for dinner". :grin:


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: Democracy [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1424935 - 04/03/03 01:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

A supercomputer?

A roulette wheel?

Who were those guys who wore their underwear outside their leotards? Oh yeah--superheroes?

Okay, in case you're still reading this--I think the problems we see in our political system today in the U.S. have a lot to do with the fact that the increasingly empowered federal government is trying to call the shots for a nation of almost 300 million people spread out over 50 states. I agree with the previous suggestions that more power should be returned to the states. Even more actively participating cities and counties wouldn't be a bad idea. As it is, some of these lower organizations remind me of my time in the university student government--organizing student activities but not much more. What's the point of taking initiative on things like emission controls or medical marijuana if the federal government will simply step in and override it?

Honestly I don't see much hope. But still, we do what our conscience tells us to do.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Democracy [Re: ]
    #1424965 - 04/03/03 01:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

After long hard thought (well, short and shallow actually) I've realized that as a species we are incapable of creating "government" adequate enough to give everyone equal rights.

Like any other animal, we have "leaders", or "dominant males". These leaders may have good intentions going in, but when it's time to select a new leader, the government immediately degenerates. People witness the power they have first-hand, many will fall victim to it. Usually by the time a territory has been around for a century, the original values are completely lost as new "heads of state" are elected on a very superficial basis.

Certain officials will over-extend themselves and soon the empire will crumble.

Repeat.

Repeat.

Repeat.


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1425014 - 04/03/03 02:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Individuals should be allowed to determine their own course. Why should you be ruled by the masses? Why should 70% of the people who want war take your money under threat of jail (or if you resist, death) to wage war on a people who you have no grudge with?




That's all well and good, but how specifically should this be accomplished? I'm not trying be antagonistic. If you have a better way I would love to hear it.



How specifically should this be accomplished? Individuals make choices everyday which they think are the best possible. How can any government or group second guess all these millions of choices made with much better information and more intimate knowledge of the circumstances?

Quote:

nobody should accept grand plans and schemes uncritically.



That's why I'm for individual liberty.

Quote:

Based on the comments you just made, I would assume you were an anarchist. I know you well enough to know that isn't the case. I assume you believe that some form of government should exist.



I have no faith in constitutions. I have no faith in governments. History has shown that constitutions are no guarantee against the designs of those who would seek power over their fellow man. Conversly, I see anarchy as an invitation to fill a power void. The natural state of mankind could reasonably be assumed to be one of anarchy. It was in this situation that governments first developed, it has been a struggle for power and throwing off the chains of power ever since.

Quote:

Governments have constitutions and governments have laws. So the obvious questions are:

Who writes the constitution?
Who writes the laws?
Who interprets the laws?
Who selects the people who will interpret those laws?

These are perennial questions of governance. They cannot be sidestepped. Democracy is imperfect--nobody would argue with that. But in order to create a more perfect system of governance, these are questions that have to be answered.



Indeed these are perennial questions of governance, if you think that people are herd animals to be governed. There can be no perfect system (or more perfect system) to govern over your fellow man if you consider it wrong for any man to rule over another. I am of the opinion that the govenment is best which governs least (carry this to it's logical conclusion - kudos to Thoreau). I am guided by my conscience and have no need for governance, I am a sovereign, I am a self-governor. I do not transgress against my neighbor and I will personally confront anyone who transgresses against me, my family, my friends or my neighbors. I take care of those near me (both emotionally and physically) and this is usually returned in kind. I ask not to be ruled and I will not rule. My desire is for others to adopt these ideas so that we may abandon the concept of the initiation of force in human affairs, so I will not advocate any government except self government.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Teotzlcoatl 4,792 63 07/27/07 05:57 PM
by Teotzlcoatl
* So they say we need to give Iraq a democratic government? Sombie 509 9 07/21/03 12:24 AM
by thepaul500
* Democratic Government to Crack Down on Violent Bigots
( 1 2 3 all )
Veritas 2,162 49 11/18/06 03:09 PM
by Veritas
* The Rise of Illiberal Democracy FrenchSocialist 755 1 04/29/07 02:41 AM
by Phred
* Open Democracy
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
GazzBut 3,529 88 07/28/04 04:04 AM
by GazzBut
* Democracy Is Not Freedom
( 1 2 all )
Ancalagon 1,852 27 02/09/05 10:31 PM
by RandalFlagg
* OK, let's talk about free will and government then moog 366 0 06/26/05 03:39 AM
by moog
* You May Already Be An Anarchist.
( 1 2 3 all )
FutureExPatriot 3,077 45 10/16/02 03:16 AM
by zeronio

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
663 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Vaposhop
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.102 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.