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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14263067 - 04/09/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
johnm214 said:
Quote:

Aspartame, in my opinion, ranks right up there with water fluoridation in the list of crazy, baseless, public health conspiracy theories alleging serious harm.





Fluoridated water is actually a problem for many people:




Define "problem"?  I know a lot of people don't like it and are alarmed, but I'm not aware of signifigant ill effects from its use within recomended levels, absent cosmetic effects on teeth for a small proportion of the population that consumes a lot of fluoridated water.
Quote:


From Fluoride Action Network
"In January 2011, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services (HSS) recommended a lowering of the level of fluoride added to drinking water from a range of 0.7-1.2 ppm to 0.7 ppm. The recommendation was based on new survey data that found significantly high levels of dental fluorosis in adolescents: 41% of 12-15 year olds.

The public were given 30 days to submit comments on the proposal. That deadline has passed and HHS has extended the comment period to April 15. See Federal Register notice."





This is almost certainly in regards to primarily cosmetic fluorosis and the possibility of more signifigant effects in that small proportion of the population I mentioned.  The fact that they recomend lowering the levels by such a small order (50 ug/ml out of 70-120 ug/ml existing range) seems indicative of the relative lack of concern.


Quote:

Fluoride is a toxic chemical which depletes iodine in the body leading to hypothyroidism.  It also deactivates seritonin, which regulates mood.  The recommendation to lower the percentage of fluoride in the water was based upon scientific studies, although many scientist and professionals, including dentists, say that fluoride should not be added to the water supply at all.  Drinking water with fluoride in it does nothing beneficial for the teeth and has no other benefits for the human body.  Fluoride has been used in the past as an insecticide and rodent poison.





Everything is a "toxic chemical"- everything.  Whether its a good idea to be adding fluoride to water and whether various authorities recomend for or against is besides the point when considering the alarmist claims the fluoride conspiracy and alarmist groups raise:  "Hitler used it to dumb down the concentration camps- that's why they're using !" et cet

I've no doubt that fluoride can cause any number of problems like every other substance.  That it may be used in insecticides and rodent poisons is also not concerning.  Heparin is also used in rodent poisons, and yet it saves the lives of many and is an indispensible part of modern medicine.  LSD and the ergots cause hysteria and all sorts of problems in contaminated grain, and yet they are great boons for post birth care to reduce uterine bleeding and size and to fight certain headaches.

You need some evidence that the relevant levels of fluoridation cause signifigant problems, and I've just not seen it (beyond fluorosis- mostly cosmetic).

edit:  fixed parts per notation values

Edited by johnm214 (04/09/11 05:46 PM)

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: johnm214]
    #14263217 - 04/09/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
johnm214 said:
Quote:

Aspartame, in my opinion, ranks right up there with water fluoridation in the list of crazy, baseless, public health conspiracy theories alleging serious harm.





Fluoridated water is actually a problem for many people:




Define "problem"?  I know a lot of people don't like it and are alarmed, but I'm not aware of signifigant ill effects from its use within recomended levels, absent cosmetic effects on teeth for a small proportion of the population that consumes a lot of fluoridated water.
Quote:


From Fluoride Action Network
"In January 2011, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services (HSS) recommended a lowering of the level of fluoride added to drinking water from a range of 0.7-1.2 ppm to 0.7 ppm. The recommendation was based on new survey data that found significantly high levels of dental fluorosis in adolescents: 41% of 12-15 year olds.

The public were given 30 days to submit comments on the proposal. That deadline has passed and HHS has extended the comment period to April 15. See Federal Register notice."





This is almost certainly in regards to primarily cosmetic fluorosis and the possibility of more signifigant effects in that small proportion of the population I mentioned.  The fact that they recomend lowering the levels by such a small order (50 ng/ml out of 70-120 ng/ml existing range) seems indicative of the relative lack of concern.


Quote:

Fluoride is a toxic chemical which depletes iodine in the body leading to hypothyroidism.  It also deactivates seritonin, which regulates mood.  The recommendation to lower the percentage of fluoride in the water was based upon scientific studies, although many scientist and professionals, including dentists, say that fluoride should not be added to the water supply at all.  Drinking water with fluoride in it does nothing beneficial for the teeth and has no other benefits for the human body.  Fluoride has been used in the past as an insecticide and rodent poison.





Everything is a "toxic chemical"- everything.  Whether its a good idea to be adding fluoride to water and whether various authorities recomend for or against is besides the point when considering the alarmist claims the fluoride conspiracy and alarmist groups raise:  "Hitler used it to dumb down the concentration camps- that's why they're using !" et cet

I've no doubt that fluoride can cause any number of problems like every other substance.  That it may be used in insecticides and rodent poisons is also not concerning.  Heparin is also used in rodent poisons, and yet it saves the lives of many and is an indispensible part of modern medicine.  LSD and the ergots cause hysteria and all sorts of problems in contaminated grain, and yet they are great boons for post birth care to reduce uterine bleeding and size and to fight certain headaches.

You need some evidence that the relevant levels of fluoridation cause signifigant problems, and I've just not seen it (beyond fluorosis- mostly cosmetic).




Here's the summary of one study:
Fluoride Compromises Brain Function

"Ding Y, Gao Y, Sun H, Han H, Wang W, Ji X, Liu X, Sun D. 2010. The relationships
between low levels of urine fluoride on children's intelligence, dental fluorosis in
endemic fluorosis areas in Hulunbuir, Inner Mongolia, China.
Journal of Hazardous Materials doi:10.1016/j.jhazmat.2010.12.097.

Liu YJ, Gao Q, Wu CX, Guan ZZ. 2010. Alterations of nAChRs and ERK1/2 in the
brains of rats with chronic fluorosis and their connections with the decreased capacity
of learning and memory. Toxicology Letters 192: 324-329.

More than 100 animal studies have linked fluoride to brain damage, and 24 additional studies in humans have found an association between high levels of fluoride in drinking water and reduced intelligence. Ding et al. (2010) studied 331 children ages 7-14 years living in Hulunbuir City, China, exposed to drinking water with fluoride levels <3 mg/L (mean: 1.31+1.05 mg/L; range: 0.24-2.84 mg/L). Urine fluoride levels, incidence of dental fluorosis (diagnosed with Dean's Index), and intelligence quotient (IQ, assessed with Combined Raven's Test for Rural China) were determined. The authors found a dose-dependent response between urine fluoride levels and incidence of dental fluorosis. Also observed was an inverse association between urine fluoride levels and IQ: a 0.59-point decrease in IQ was observed for each 1 mg/L increase in urine fluoride. Thus, low levels of fluoride in drinking water, even within the range of levels currently allowed, negatively impact children's intelligence and dental health.

Chronic exposure to elevated levels of fluoride results in decreased memory and learning ability, but the mechanisms underlying these effects are not known. To address this issue, Liu et al. (2010) exposed rats to varying concentrations of fluoride in drinking water for 6 months. As expected, spatial learning and memory of the rats were significantly reduced in both the low- (5 mg/L) and high (50 mg/L) fluoride groups when compared to the control group (<0.5 mg/L), as determined by increased times of Morris Water Maze tests. When compared with controls, both the low- and high fluoride exposed groups revealed altered expression of several proteins related to cognition in both rats and humans, including decreased protein expression for two nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (alpha- 4 and alpha-7 nAChR), increased expression for phospho- and total ERK1/2 and phospho-MEK1/2, and decreased activation rate of phospho-ERK1/2. Rats require water fluoride levels 4-5 times greater than humans to produce similar blood plasma fluoride levels. That these changes were observed in even the low fluoride group of the present study suggests similar alterations may be responsible for the decreased intelligence of children exposed to relatively low water fluoride levels, as in Ding et al. (above)."

Fluoride also comprises thyroid function resulting in hypothyroidism.  I know this is not a concern for you, but it is for many others, especially older people.  Did you know administering fluoride used to be a treatment for hyperthyroid? 

Fluoride is not just found in fluoridated toothpaste or in the tap water, it's in many commercial beverages and foods.  The cummulative effect is much greater than the 0.7-1.2 ppm added to tap water. Also, it only prevents cavities (if it actually does prevent cavities) when applied directly to the teeth.

So why add it to the water at all?  There is absolutely no benefit to the human body.  Humans do not require any form of fluorine in the body, not even in trace amounts.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14263340 - 04/09/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:

Here's the summary of one study:
Fluoride Compromises Brain Function

"Ding Y, Gao Y, Sun H, Han H, Wang W, Ji X, Liu X, Sun D. 2010. The relationships
between low levels of urine fluoride on children's intelligence, dental fluorosis in
endemic fluorosis areas in Hulunbuir, Inner Mongolia, China.
Journal of Hazardous Materials doi:10.1016/j.jhazmat.2010.12.097.
Liu YJ, Gao Q, Wu CX, Guan ZZ. 2010. Alterations of nAChRs and ERK1/2 in the
brains of rats with chronic fluorosis and their connections with the decreased capacity
of learning and memory. Toxicology Letters 192: 324-329.







The first study concerns dental fluorosis, which I've conceded allready, and covers people drinking fluoridated water up to 2.84 ppm.  The old maximum level that is being downgraded only allowed up to 1.2 ppm, so these levels are higher than the maximum levels recomended previously, even though the effect isn't reelvant to my claims.

It also claims that they found a .59 IQ point per mg/L fluoridation in the children's water.  I've not read the study and have no opinion on how good it is, even 1mg/L is more than the new recomended maximum, and .59 IQ point is small.  I'll read the study later and see how convincing this claim is.

The second study deals with high level (minimum 5mg/L) fluoridation of rat water and various neurological changes.  I don't dispute these are possible, but they aren't neccesarily relevant to water fluoridation in relevant levels.  Nobody disagrees the high levels of fluroidation can cause problems.

Its worth nothing that these changes are compared to a control group that has fluoridated water as well, rather than fluoride free water: <.5ppm.


As for the other claims made in the source, they appear to be qualitative claims that aren't disputed but don't seem necessarily relevant to fluoridation as it is practiced.  That some dosage may cause various deleterious effects does not mean fluoridation at whatever level is problematic.


Quote:


Fluoride also comprises thyroid function resulting in hypothyroidism.  I know this is not a concern for you, but it is for many others, especially older people.  Did you know administering fluoride used to be a treatment for hyperthyroid?




It is a concern to me, its just that the fact that a substance can cause some ailment isn't evidence that a particular dosage can cause that ailment at any incidence rate.  The dose makes the poison.
 
Quote:


Fluoride is not just found in fluoridated toothpaste or in the tap water, it's in many commercial beverages and foods.  The cummulative effect is much greater than the 0.7-1.2 ppm added to tap water. Also, it only prevents cavities (if it actually does prevent cavities) when applied directly to the teeth.

So why add it to the water at all?  There is absolutely no benefit to the human body.  Humans do not require any form of fluorine in the body, not even in trace amounts.




You admit it prevents cavities and then say adding it to water isn't helpful- this doesn't follow.

If you consume something it comes in contact with your teeth, therefore, consuming fluoride fights cavities.

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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: johnm214]
    #14263739 - 04/09/11 04:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

johnm said:
Quote:

You admit it prevents cavities and then say adding it to water isn't helpful- this doesn't follow.

If you consume something it comes in contact with your teeth, therefore, consuming fluoride fights cavities.




The experts, including dentists, say that fluoride is only helpful in preventing cavities when applied DIRECTLY TO THE TEETH, as in the form of a paste.  So why add it to the water?

I am concerned, but not alarmed, about the effects of aspertame, food dyes, and many other substances.  I have done extensive reading about the effects of fluoride and it does alarm me.  Do you want to see studies on the negative effects of fluoride to the thyroid, kidneys and bones? 

Do you understand that the level of fluoride we receive through the COMBINATION of fluoridated water, fluoridated toothpaste (if you still use it) and many commercial beverages and foods EXCEEDS the recommended levels of fluoride?  I know you are young and probably feel invincible. :smile:  I have done extensive research on the subject.  If there is one substance (that is recommended by the government) that *I* could recommend for everyone to avoid as much as possible, it would be fluoride.

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14263875 - 04/09/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Fluoride also accumulated the in the Pineal gland...


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: HippieChick8]
    #14263972 - 04/09/11 06:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HippieChick8 said:
johnm said:
Quote:

You admit it prevents cavities and then say adding it to water isn't helpful- this doesn't follow.

If you consume something it comes in contact with your teeth, therefore, consuming fluoride fights cavities.




The experts, including dentists, say that fluoride is only helpful in preventing cavities when applied DIRECTLY TO THE TEETH, as in the form of a paste.  So why add it to the water?




What is the basis for this conclusion?  It doesn't not comport with what I've read on the subject.  If your getting this information from the anti-flouridation groups, I'd caution you to check out what they claim to be accepted or true.  The ADA is a good check to make sure you don't accept things which aren't true.

For example, the ADA's position is that direct application of fluoride, including fluoridated water, is but one of the two primary mechanisms in which water fluoridation schemes exert their benift, the other being the absorption of fluoride and the distribution of such in salivary fluids which act as a resevoir of fluoride ion:

Quote:

Additionally, the presence of systemic fluoride in saliva provides a reservoir of fluoride ions that can be incorporated into the tooth surface to prevent decay.
See: McGuire S. A review of the impact of fluoride on adult caries.
J Clin Dent 1993; 4(1): 11-13.



From:  ADA's Fluoridation Facts, Copy available in Congressional record at:  http://ftp.resource.org/gpo.gov/hearings/106s/71518.txt


Quote:

I am concerned, but not alarmed, about the effects of aspertame, food dyes, and many other substances.  I have done extensive reading about the effects of fluoride and it does alarm me.  Do you want to see studies on the negative effects of fluoride to the thyroid, kidneys and bones? 




Sure, if its relevant to the discussion, but as i stated previously, as the fact that any chemical can be harmful at particular doses is not disputed, evidence of some negative effects resulting from higher concentrations, dosages, than recieved in recomended water fluoridation programs, as discussed previously, does not seem to be relevant.  Previously you've made qualitative statements about fluoride's potention, and such simply seems off point give this.

Quote:

Do you understand that the level of fluoride we receive through the COMBINATION of fluoridated water, fluoridated toothpaste (if you still use it) and many commercial beverages and foods EXCEEDS the recommended levels of fluoride?




No, I don't understand that.  There has been some discussion that the recent lowering of the levels recomended for fluoridation is supported by the ADA in part because of such supplemental sources of fluoride, however; I've come across no evidence or authoritative claim that suggests the supplemental sources exceeds whatever "recomended levels of fluoride" you're referring to.

Quote:

I know you are young and probably feel invincible. :smile:




Not so.  I believe I've suffered negative effects from fluoridation myself- I also believe members of my family to have incurred such effects as well.  Neither this nor feelings of invincibility have any relevance to whether fluoridation causes any particular nasty problems or any of the more outrageous claims.

Quote:

I have done extensive research on the subject.  If there is one substance (that is recommended by the government) that *I* could recommend for everyone to avoid as much as possible, it would be fluoride.




Your research may be more extensive than mine, but the facts are what they are, and it is certainly true that the anti-fluoridation people are very good at impersonating valid sources.  They have websites taht appear as if they are legitimate, respected, academic journals and they make claims, such as qualitative assesments of fluoridation (bad, dangerous, damaging to thryoid, et cet) that betray an ignorance of basic toxicology and have the potential to missinform.  Often these "fake journals" are cited by the antiflouridation people.  Just make sure you understand your source, or verify their claims are supported by the evidence.

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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: johnm214]
    #14265857 - 04/10/11 07:51 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Your research may be more extensive than mine, but the facts are what they are, and it is certainly true that the anti-fluoridation people are very good at impersonating valid sources.  They have websites taht appear as if they are legitimate, respected, academic journals and they make claims, such as qualitative assesments of fluoridation (bad, dangerous, damaging to thryoid, et cet) that betray an ignorance of basic toxicology and have the potential to missinform.  Often these "fake journals" are cited by the antiflouridation people.  Just make sure you understand your source, or verify their claims are supported by the evidence.




Every website that I looked at said that fluoride replaces iodine in the body, which leads to the thyroid not being able to function properly.  I've also done extensive research about hypothyroidism and why its such an epidemic in this country (Synthroid is the 3rd highest prescribed drug in the U.S.) and fluoridated water was mentioned as one of the reasons.

I realize there may be fake journal articles.  Another source that I have that you can't check but I'm going to mention anyway is that a doctor told me in December 2006 that I should consider switching from fluoridated toothpaste to fluoride free due to the recent scientific studies that show fluoride is harmful.  He is a reputable doctor who serves an affluent clientele; just a regular MD, not a holistic or new age doctor.  I thought that was odd advice because if fluoride is harmful, why is it allowed to be sold to the public? Eventually I did switch to fluoride free toothpaste.

The bottom line for me is that fluoride is unnecessary.  It is not a nutrient and it not required by the human body in any form.  It is problem for infants, the elderly and people with kidney disease, which runs in my family.

Quote:

Kidney disease markedly increases an individual's susceptibility to fluoride toxicity. However, in adults with kidney disease the kidneys may excrete as little as 10 to 20% of an ingested dose - thus increasing the body burden of fluoride and increasing an individual's susceptibility to fluoride poisoning (e.g. renal osteodystrophy).





It should be a matter of personal choice, I do not want fluoride in my water, nor GMO corn.

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InvisibleRaven Gnosis
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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #14267172 - 04/10/11 01:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I forgot to add, this isn't exactly political, but, I Study botany and ethnobotany, and the ability of the monsanto GMO corn to mix with the genetics of normal corn strains is indeed dangerous, especially with the terminator gene.

Monoculture in any plant life is dangerous for the ecology and when you bring that plant ecology is a part of the human food chain it's implications are indeed frightening.


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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #14267206 - 04/10/11 01:51 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

There is no such thing an 'normal' corn strains.  Modern corn has been heavily genetically modified and domesticated with selective breeding by man for thousands of years.

The supposition that certain organisms are 'normal' and some are not is fallacious and ignorant of how the ecosystem develops via evolution by natural selection.

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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14267316 - 04/10/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
There is no such thing an 'normal' corn strains.  Modern corn has been heavily genetically modified and domesticated with selective breeding by man for thousands of years.

The supposition that certain organisms are 'normal' and some are not is fallacious and ignorant of how the ecosystem develops via evolution by natural selection.




By 'normal' I meant the many, many non-genetically modified strains of corn. Not selectively bred, mind you, because there is a stark difference between directly altering the genome of a plant, adding soil bacterium to it and breeding a plant generation to generation for specific traits. But that's all semantics...
The ability of the monsanto corns terminator and BT genes to mingle into the many different breeds of corn, whose diversity is an insurance policy in times of crop failure within specific bio-regions and varying climates.
The terminator genes ability to enter all other corn varites should be enough for us to realize the foolishness.
Plants naturally stray from mono-culture and creating a gene with the ability to end that ability is indeed metaphorically playing with some dangerous fire.

EDIT:

A link to a study which is preliminary to more studies due to the fact that BT toxins from monsanto's corm have been found in the blood of pregnant women and their fetuses, I found randomly whilst reading a Bald Eagle study.

Bt toxin found in blood of pregnant women and fetuses


--------------------
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Edited by Raven Gnosis (04/10/11 02:26 PM)

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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #14267421 - 04/10/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Would that be more or less toxic than higher amounts of regular pesticides?


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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14267443 - 04/10/11 02:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

That is exactly what I am curious about.  I can't find anything not so vague on it at the moment, but I guess we will find out it's toxicity through the studies, if from nowhere else.


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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #14288916 - 04/14/11 08:53 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

From someone who studies plants and obviously cares a great deal about GMOs, I would have expected you to know that the 'terminator' gene has never been used in any commercial seed product.  Not that it would matter if it was, and 'escaped'.  How successful at reproducing could a plant possibly be that has a terminator gene in it?  Not at all, of course.

Regarding the initial study in the OP; as a short term study the experiment has some shortcomings.  There have been other studies (of similar structure and duration) that have provided inconclusive findings and even a couple that have found GMO fed mice produced more robust and healthier offspring and were less likely to miscarry than control groups.  I think that more long-term studies should be done, but given the limited confidence of current research to corroborate specific effects it is unlikely that any major physiological effects are the result of GMO food ingestion.

Here at my university, the first GMO pig was created to reduce pollution in pig farming, and the groundless backlash it still receives a decade after it's invention is nothing short of stifling.  People need to find better things to do than protest food.


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Re: Huffington Post- Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals. [Re: Hypercube]
    #14290957 - 04/14/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
...and obviously cares a great deal about GMOs..



That is definitely an overstatement.

I'd say I care a great deal about GMO's if they hurt people...
Show me the studies your talking about, I'd like to see them.
I'm not on any side but science's and people's well being.

I definitely agree with you that more studies need to be done. Yet, I do think it is absolutely foolish to have had released this as food before even doing all the studies were doing now... I don't think people should be eating it until we know what the hell it does to our bodies...  I relate their "not giving a shit" directly with "for the sake of profits" which is what such businesses are all about, it don't matter if it's Monsanto or 'fuckin Matel. This causes a nuclear bomb of disgust and misanthropy to go off in my cranium.

I don't know exactly what your talking about with the terminator gene bit, given a plant doesn't need the ability to produce viable seeds in order to be pollinated and pollinate other flowers...
And I was under the impression that the terminator gene is being used? I could easily be wrong.:shrug:
Never claimed to be an expert on the subject.


Quote:

Hypercube said:
Here at my university, the first GMO pig was created to reduce pollution in pig farming, and the groundless backlash it still receives a decade after it's invention is nothing short of stifling..




I don't know about you, but looking at what you said I would imagine the fact that they are toying with the genetics of a living, breathing, conscious organism, would cause more of an uproar than holding it in ones perception as simply genetically modifying food:shrug:. Genetically modifying organisms is a threshold science, we do not yet know and fully understand the consequences of what we are doing, that is the biggest issue and concern amongst scientists.
And I am definitely curious as to how toying with swine genetics would reduce pollution. Got any info on it?







Quote:

Hypercube said:
People need to find better things to do than protest food.



..........Seriously?...I don't think whats happening here and there is that simple....


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