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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14232608 - 04/03/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

But I've seen a process occur in my own life which i can extrapolate to the point where miracles can happen.




Extrapolate? From a non-miracle to a miracle? :rofl2: Sorry, but that is nonsense.

In other words, you made the whole thing up about people being able to do such things. :congrats:

Ironic how the skeptic is more intellectually honest than the alleged path-walker - except we witness this here ALL THE TIME.





:rolleyes: if you see somebody run a mile in five minutes, is it not logical to assume that there is somebody out there that can run one in four minutes? Especially when there are thousands of texts talking about it.

It is of paramount importance to have an imagination, as my friend Einstein pointed out.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14232693 - 04/03/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:blah:
I asked you early in this thread if you witnessed such and it ONLY TOOK YOU FIVE GODDAMEND PAGES of ducking before you fessed up.

Quote:

if you see somebody run a mile in five minutes, is it not logical to assume that there is somebody out there that can run one in four seconds?



No. WTF does this have to do with ignoring the Laws of Physics (i.e. miracles)? Obviously, nothing.

Quote:

Especially when there are thousands of texts talking about it


.
OK class (meaning Poid), who can tell us what logical fallacy this is?

*Einstein and Wright Brothers irrelevance ignored*


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14232748 - 04/03/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Look man, I know I can't deductively prove miracles, that's ridiculous.  There has to be an intuitive understanding of how they could work. That's obviously not present with you.  What I'm doing is presenting a way of how they could work (and for me, I know it's a very true way they could work). But w/e, keep walking the intellectual strait and narrow, see where that gets you.

Now have at it, and try to be inflammatory and disrespectful please.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14232879 - 04/03/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
:blah:
I asked you early in this thread if you witnessed such and it ONLY TOOK YOU FIVE GODDAMEND PAGES of ducking before you fessed up.




Yeah, that's my experience as well.

The faithful seem to refuse to answer direct questions and just go right on preaching, equivocating at every reply.  Seems manifestly dishonest.  If they don't with to have a concversation it would be better if they stayed mute than make philosophical claims they have no intention of backing up, or replying to criticism they have no intention of rebutting.



Quote:


Quote:

Especially when there are thousands of texts talking about it


.
OK class (meaning Poid), who can tell us what logical fallacy this is?

*Einstein and Wright Brothers irrelevance ignored*




appeal to popularity
appeal to authority


Quote:

guruu said:
Look man, I know I can't deductively prove miracles, that's ridiculous.




Why are you criticizing this suggestion?  Nobody that I can see asked for you to do this.  It was meerly observed that the only conceivable way in which you justify your faith, deduction from that which you've observed to that which you "know" exists, is apparently not the basis of your faith and thus your faith is unjustified.

It was not that your observation should have been deduced as allowing miraculous occurances, but that your faith in such miraculous occurances is completely unsubstantiated by the reasons you profer for their belief.

Quote:

What I'm doing is presenting a way of how they could work (and for me, I know it's a very true way they could work).




You say it, but I don't see it.  Where have you done such as you claim to have done?  What is the basis for this "could work" conclusion you claim to present?


Quote:


But w/e, keep walking the intellectual strait and narrow, see where that gets you.

Now have at it, and try to be inflammatory and disrespectful please.





Quite enough of this bullshit.

If you want to argue with yourself you can do so in your journal.  Nobody suggested walking the "intellectual straight and narrow" or being inflammatory and disrespectful.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: johnm214]
    #14233582 - 04/03/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not "faithful" i've simply had certain experiences.  You know there is such thing as the religious/spiritual experience, its fucking documented in so many places.  William Blake wrote a huge book about it back in the day.  Do you really think all reports of Satori, God, Oneness, Cosmic Consciousness, Blissful absorption etc. are just lies?

And you might think those experiences have nothing to do with fire standing, but if you have one and can see a little more how reality actually is, then the idea of miracles, while very far out, is not impossible at all and that's why i'm defending it.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: johnm214]
    #14234240 - 04/04/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Especially when there are thousands of texts talking about it


.
OK class (meaning Poid), who can tell us what logical fallacy this is?

*Einstein and Wright Brothers irrelevance ignored*




appeal to popularity
appeal to authority


It could also be an appeal to false authority:

Quote:

Appeal To False Authority

A variation on Appeal to Authority , but the Authority is outside his area of expertise.

For example, "Famous physicist John Taylor studied Uri Geller extensively and found no evidence of trickery or fraud in his feats." Taylor was not qualified to detect trickery or fraud of the kind used by stage magicians. Taylor later admitted Geller had tricked him, but he apparently had not figured out how.

Meanwhile, Johnny Carson exposed Geller as a fraud on national TV. Jonny Carson was a competent stage magician.

A variation is to appeal to a non-existent authority. For example, someone reading an article by Creationist Dmitri Kuznetsov tried to look up the referenced articles. Some of the articles turned out to be in non-existent journals.

Another variation is to misquote a real authority. There are several kinds of misquotation. A quote can be inexact or have been edited. It can be taken out of context. Chevy Chase: "Yes, I said that, but I was singing a song written by someone else at the time." The quote can be separate quotes which the arguer glued together. Or, bits might have gone missing. For example, it's easy to prove that Mick Jagger is an assassin. In "Sympathy For The Devil" he sang: "I shouted out, who killed the Kennedys, When after all, it was ... me."




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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: Poid]
    #14234243 - 04/04/11 12:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well, they really are the authority :shrug: Holy Texts, the universe's users manual! :thumbup:


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14234253 - 04/04/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I'll bet:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html
Quote:

Excerpt K 2:178-179
Set 1, Count 1+2 [2.178]...retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain... [2.179] ...there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O men of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.
Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
Excerpt K 2:193-194
Set 3, Count 5+6 [193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you...
Excerpt K 2:216-218
Set 4, Count 7-9 [2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you...[2.217]... fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter...persecution is graver than slaughter... [2.218]...strove hard in the way of Allah...
Excerpt K 2:244
Set 5, Count 10 ...fight in the way of Allah
Excerpt K 3:121-126
Set 6, Count 11-16 [3.121]...to lodge the believers in encampments for war...[3.122] When two parties from among you had determined that they should show cowardice [about Jihad]...[3.123]...Allah did certainly assist you at [the Battle of] Badr...[3.124]...[3.125] Yea! if you remain patient and are on your guard, and they come upon you in a headlong manner, your Lord will assist you with five thousand of the havoc-making angels. [3.126] ...victory is only from Allah...
Excerpt K 3:140-143
Set 7, Count 17-20 [3.140] If a wound has afflicted you (at [the Battle of] Uhud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you...[3.141] ...that He [Allah] may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings. [3.142] Yusuf Ali: Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without God testing those of you who fought hard (in His Cause) and remained steadfast? [3.143] Pickthall: And verily ye used to wish for death before ye met it (in the field). Now ye have seen it [death] with your eyes!
Excerpt K 3:146
Set 8, Count 21 Yusuf Ali: How many of the prophets fought (in Allah's way) [Jihad], and with them (fought) large bands of godly men? But they never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah's way [lost a battle], nor did they weaken (in will) nor give in. And Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [in Jihad].
Excerpt K 3:152-158
Set 9, Count 22-28 [3.152]...you slew them by His [Allah's] permission [during a Jihad battle]...[3.153] Pickthall: ...the messenger, in your rear, was calling you (to fight)...that which ye missed [war spoils]...[3.154]...They say: Had we any hand in the affair, we would not have been slain here [in a Jihad battle]. Say: Had you remained in your houses, those for whom slaughter was ordained [in a Jihad battle] would certainly have gone forth to the places where they would be slain...[3.155] (As for) those of you who turned back on the day when the two armies met...[3.156] O you who believe! be not like those who disbelieve and say of their brethren when they travel in the earth or engage in fighting: Had they been with us, they would not have died and they would not have been slain...[3.157]...if you are slain in the way of Allah...mercy is better than what they amass [what those who stay home from Jihad receive – no booty on earth and no perks in heaven]. [3.158] …if indeed you die or you are slain, certainly to Allah shall you be gathered together.
Excerpt K 3:165-167
Set 10, Count 29-31 [3.165]...you [Muslims] had certainly afflicted (the unbelievers) with twice as much [in a Jihad battle]...[3.166]...when the two armies met ([the Battle of] Uhud)...[3.167]...Come, fight in Allah's way, or defend yourselves...If we knew fighting, we would certainly have followed you...
Excerpt K 3:169
Set 11, Count 32 ...reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [meaning they are enjoying their 72 virgins in heaven];
Excerpt K 3:172-173
Set 12, Count 33+34 [3.172] ...those who responded (at [the Battle of] Uhud) to the call of Allah and the Apostle after a wound had befallen them...shall have a great reward. [3.173] Those to whom the people said: Surely men have gathered against you [in battle], therefore fear them, but this increased their faith, and they said: Allah is sufficient for us and most excellent is the Protector.
Excerpt K 3:195
Set 13, Count 35 ...who fought and were slain...I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.
Excerpt K 4:071-072
Set 14, Count 36+37 [4.71] ...go forth in detachments or go forth in a body [to war]. [4.72] ...hang back [from Jihad] ...not present with them [in Jihad].
Excerpt K 4:074-077
Set 15, Count 38-41 [4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?...
Excerpt K 4:084
Set 16, Count 42 Fight then in Allah's way...rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve...
Excerpt K 4:089-091
Set 17, Count 43-45 [4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...
Excerpt K 4:094-095
Set 18, Count 46+47 [4.94]...when you go to war in Allah's way... [4.95] ...those who strive hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal...Allah shall grant to the strivers [i.e., Jihadist] above the holders back a mighty reward.
Excerpt K 4:100-104
Set 19, Count 48-52 ...whoever flies in Allah's way [forsakes his home to fight in Jihad], he will find in the earth many a place of refuge and abundant resources, and whoever goes forth from his house flying to Allah and His Apostle, and then death overtakes him [in Jihad], his reward is indeed with Allah...[4.101] Rodwell: And when ye go forth to war in the land, it shall be no crime in you to cut short your prayers, if ye fear lest the infidels come upon you; Verily, the infidels are your undoubted enemies! [4.102]...let them take their arms...let them take their precautions and their arms...there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms...[4.103] Khalifa: Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.[4.104]...be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy...
Excerpt K 4:141
Set 20, Count 53 Sher Ali:...If you have a victory [in Jihad] from Allah...
Excerpt K 5:033
Set 21, Count 54 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned [Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have "exiled" rather than "imprisoned"]
Excerpt K 5:035
Set 22, Count 55 ...strive hard [at Jihad] in His way that you may be successful.
Excerpt K 5:082
Set 23, Count 56 ...you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews [compare with "whenever Jews kindle fire for war, Allah [Muslims] puts it out" (K 005:064)] and those who are polytheists [while they are converted to Islam on pain of death]...
Excerpt K 8:001
Set 24, Count 57 Pickthall: ...the spoils of war...The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger
Excerpt K 8:005
Set 25, Count 58 Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse;
Excerpt K 8:007
Set 26, Count 59 ...Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers.
Excerpt K 8:009-010
Set 27, Count 60+61 [8.9]...I will assist you [in Jihad] with a thousand of the angels following one another [see K 008:012]. [8.10] ...Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Excerpt K 8:015-017
Set 29, Count 63-65 [8.15] ...when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. [8.16] ...for the sake of fighting... [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote [Allah gets the credit for Jihad]...
Excerpt K 8:039-048
Set 30, Count 66-75 [8.39] Shakir: ...fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah... [8.40] Yusuf Ali: If they [unbelievers] refuse [to stop fighting], be sure that God is your Protector...[8.41] Shakir: ...whatever thing [loot] you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Apostle...the day on which the two parties met [in a Jihad versus anti-Jihad battle]...[8.42]...Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done, that he who would perish might perish by clear proof [bring success to Muslims engaged in robbing a caravan near Badr against all the odds]...[8.43]...Allah showed them [the Mekkans] to you in your dream as few [fighters]; and if He had shown them [the Mekkans] to you as many [fighters] you would certainly have become weak-hearted [i.e., hearts. See the similar discussion in K 002:249 about how a smaller army can defeat a larger army]...[8.44]...when you met, as few [fighters] in your eyes and He made you to appear little [few fighters] in their eyes, in order that Allah might bring about a matter which was to be done [a Jihad versus anti-Jihad battle brought on by overconfidence in each side]...[8.45]...when you meet a party [in battle], then be firm...[8.46]...obey Allah and His Apostle and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts [demoralized] and your power [to execute Jihad] will depart...[8.47]...be not like those [Mekkans] who came forth from their homes [in an anti-Jihad War on Islamic terrorism]...[8.48]...when the two parties [Muslims versus Mekkans] came in sight of each other he [Satan] turned upon his heels...
Excerpt K 8:057-060
Set 31, Count 76-79 Pickthall: [8.57] If thou come on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember. [8.57] Khalifa: When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers. [8.59] Shakir: ...let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape. [8.60] And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way [for Jihad]...
Excerpt K 8:065-075
Set 32, Count 80-90 [8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand [in other words, do not understand totalitarian ideologies like Islam]. [8.66] ...if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission... [8.67] It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods [i.e., ransom money] of this world... [8.68] ...ransom... [8.69] Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war [war spoils]...[8.70] O Prophet! say to those of the captives [non-Muslims] who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you [in Jihad]...[8.71] Yusuf Ali: But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Apostle!)...He [Allah] given (thee) power over them...[8.72] Yusuf Ali: Those who ...fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of God...[8.73] Yusuf Ali: The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another: Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief. [8.74] Yusuf Ali:...fight for the Faith...[8.75] Yusuf Ali: ...fight for the Faith...
Excerpt K 9:005
Set 33, Count 91 ...slay the idolaters wherever you find them...take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush...
Excerpt K 9:012-014
Set 34, Count 92-94 [9.12] ...fight the leaders of unbelief...[9.13] What! will you not fight a people...[9.14] Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.
Excerpt K 9:016
Set 35, Count 95 ...those of you who have struggled hard [in Jihad]
Excerpt K 9:019-020
Set 36, Count 96+97 [9.19] ...strives hard in Allah's way?... [9.20]...strove hard [Jihad] in Allah's way with their property and their souls...
Excerpt K 9:024-026
Set 37, Count 98-100 [9.24] ...striving in His way [Jihad]:, then wait till Allah brings about His command [to go on Jihad]: ... [9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of [the Battle of] Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, ... [9.26] ...chastised those who disbelieved [Muhammad gives credit to angels and Allah for the actions of Jihadists]...
Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Excerpt K 9:036
Set 39, Count 102 ...fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together...
Excerpt K 9:038-039
Set 40, Count 103+104 [9.38] ...Go forth in Allah's way [to Jihad]... [9.39] If you do not go forth [to go on Jihad], He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you [to go on Jihad]...
Excerpt K 9:041
Set 41, Count 105 Go forth light [lightly armed] and heavy [heavily armed], and strive hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your persons...
Excerpt K 9:044
Set 42, Count 106 ...striving hard with their property and their persons [Jihad] ...
Excerpt K 9:052
Set 43, Count 107 ...Allah will afflict you with punishment from Himself or by our hands...
Excerpt K 9:073
Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them...
Excerpt K 9:081
Set 45, Count 109 ...they were averse from striving in Allah's way [Jihad] with their property and their persons, and said: Do not go forth [to Jihad] in the heat...
Excerpt K 9:083
Set 46, Count 110 ... shall you fight an enemy with me [in Jihad]...
Excerpt K 9:086
Set 47, Count 111 ...strive hard [in Jihad] along with His Apostle
Excerpt K 9:088
Set 48, Count 112 ...strive hard [in Jihad] with their property and their persons...
Excerpt K 9:092
Set 49, Count 113 Yusuf Ali: Nor (is there blame) on those who came to thee to be provided with mounts [saddles on which to go to war], and when thou said, "I can find no mounts for you," they turned back, their eyes streaming with tears of grief that they had no resources wherewith to provide the expenses [to go on Jihad].
Excerpt K 9:111
Set 50, Count 114 ...they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain...
Excerpt K 9:120
Set 51, Count 115 Yusuf Ali:...whether they suffered thirst, or fatigue, or hunger, in the cause of Allah [while on a march to Jihad], or trod paths to raise the ire of the Unbelievers [invade their territory], or received any injury whatever from an enemy [during a Jihad battle]...
Excerpt K 9:122-123
Set 52, Count 116+117 [9.122] Pickthall:...the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth... [9.123] ...fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness...
Excerpt K 16:110
Set 53, Count 118 Yusuf Ali:...who thereafter strive and fight for the faith and patiently persevere...
Excerpt K 22:039
Set 54, Count 119 Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made...
Excerpt K 22:058
Set 55, Count 120 Sher Ali: ...those who leave their homes for the cause of Allah, and are then slain or die, Allah will, surely, provide for them a goodly provision...
Excerpt K 22:078
Set 56, Count 121 ...strive hard [in Jihad] in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him...
Excerpt K 24:053
Set 57, Count 122 ...they would certainly go forth [to Jihad (see K 024:055)]...
Excerpt K 24:055
Set 58, Count 123 Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth [as a reward for going on Jihad (see K 024:053)]...
Excerpt K 25:052
Set 59, Count 124 Palmer: ...fight strenuously with them in many a strenuous fight.
Excerpt K 29:006
Set 60, Count 125 ...whoever strives hard [in Jihad], he strives only for his own soul...
Excerpt K 29:069
Set 61, Count 126 ...(as for) those who strive hard [in Jihad] for Us [Allah]...
Excerpt K 33:015
Set 62, Count 127 Pickthall: ...they had already sworn unto Allah that they would not turn their backs (to the foe) [in Jihad battle]...
Excerpt K 33:018
Set 63, Count 128 ...they come not to the fight [Jihad] but a little...
Excerpt K 33:020
Set 64, Count 129 ...they would not fight save a little [in Jihad].
Excerpt K 33:023
Set 65, Count 130 Pickthall: ...Some of them [Jihadists] have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting...
Excerpt K 33:25-27
Set 66, Count 131-133 [33.25]...Allah sufficed the believers in fighting... [33.26]...some [Jews] you killed and you took captive another part. [33.27]...He made you heirs to their [Jewish] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden...
Excerpt K 33:050
Set 67, Count 134 ...those [captive women] whom your right hand possesses [i.e., by virtue of the sword used in Jihad] out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war...
Excerpt K 42:039
Set 68, Count 135 Sale:...and who, when an injury is done them, avenge themselves...
Excerpt K 47:004
Set 69, Count 136 ...when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates...(as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah...
Excerpt K 47:020
Set 70, Count 137 ...fighting [allusion to Jihad] is mentioned therein ...
Excerpt K 47:035
Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...
Excerpt K 48:15-24
Set 72, Count 139-148 [48.15] Pickthall: ...when you set forth to capture booty...[48.16]...You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit...[48.17] Pickthall: There is no blame...for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeys Allah and His messenger [by going on Jihad], He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turns back [from Jihad], him will He punish with a painful doom. [48.18] Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquility on them and rewarded them with a near victory, [48.19] And much booty that they will capture. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. [48.20] Allah promised you many acquisitions which you will take, then He hastened on this one for you and held back the hands of men from you, and that it may be a sign for the believers and that He may guide you on a right path. [48.21] Sale: And [he also promiseth you] other [spoils], which ye have not [yet] been able [to take]: But now hath God encompassed them [for you]; and God is almighty. [48.22] And if those who disbelieve fight with you, they would certainly turn (their) backs, then they would not find any protector or a helper. [48.23] Such [i.e., the Jihad mentioned the previous verse] has been the course [practice] of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah’s course. [48.24] And He [Allah] it is Who held back...your hands from them [in Jihad] in the valley of Mecca...
Excerpt K 49:015
Set 73, Count 149 Sale: ...true believers ...employ their substance and their persons in the defense of God's true religion...
Excerpt K 59:002
Set 74, Count 150 ...the hands of the believers [i.e. Muslims demolished Jewish homes] ...
Excerpt K 59:5-8
Set 75, Count 151-154 Pickthall:[59.5] Whatsoever palm-trees you cut down or left standing on their roots [during a Jihad siege of the Jews at Madina], it was by Allah's leave, in order that He might confound the evil-livers [Jews]. [59.6] ...that which Allah gave as spoil unto His messenger from them, you urged not any horse or riding-camel for the sake thereof, but Allah gives His messenger lordship over whom He will... [59.7] That which Allah gives as [war] spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships [Jews], it is for Allah and His messenger...whatsoever [spoils] the messenger gives you, take it...[59.8] ...who seek bounty [war spoils] from Allah...
Excerpt K 59:014
Set 76, Count 155 They will not fight against you in a body save in fortified towns or from behind walls...
Excerpt K 60:009
Set 77, Count 156 Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion [no fraternizing with the enemy]...
Excerpt K 61:004
Set 78, Count 157 ...Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.
Excerpt K 61:011
Set 79, Count 158 ...struggle hard in Allah's way [Jihad] with your property and your lives...
Excerpt K 61:013
Set 80, Count 159 ...victory [in Jihad] near at hand...
Excerpt K 63:004
Set 81, Count 160 ...they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back? [This verse speaks of internecine Jihad against Muslims deemed infidels or "hypocrites."]
Excerpt K 64:014
Set 82, Count 161 ...surely from among your wives and your children there is an enemy to you; therefore beware of them [collaborators with the enemy, especially if the women were once war spoils]...
Excerpt K 66:009
Set 83, Count 162 O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them...
Excerpt K 73:020
Set 84, Count 163 ...others who fight in Allah's way...
Excerpt K 76:008
Set 85, Count 164 And they [Muslims] give food out of love for Him [Allah] to...the captive [of Jihad] ...




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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Fire Standing [Re: Poid]
    #14234452 - 04/04/11 01:11 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Dying in war might be very beneficial because you're dying for an immaterial cause. I've read the same about the Bhagavad Gita. Your thoughts at death are for an idea, not a material thing, so naturally that brings you higher.  But shit, I can't speak for every single segment of a holy text you can bring up.  For one thing not all spiritual traditions are created equal, and based on how I see history I'd say Islam arose at a much more difficult time and as such reflects a much more hardened and violent spiritual reality.

So, for one thing dying in war, if for a cause, might be a good thing cause your mental energy will lead you to higher realms rather than cling to the gross material level. But, less metaphysically, the violence supported in the Quran is representative of a darker time and a tradition composed of a very different culture. Not saying that culture is bad, in fact I think it was amazing, but just from a very different time and now the tradition seems to be in a quite turbulent phase of transition.


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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14234551 - 04/04/11 01:57 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:braindamage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14234801 - 04/04/11 04:41 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
I'm not "faithful" i've simply had certain experiences.  You know there is such thing as the religious/spiritual experience, its fucking documented in so many places.  William Blake wrote a huge book about it back in the day.  Do you really think all reports of Satori, God, Oneness, Cosmic Consciousness, Blissful absorption etc. are just lies?




No, I doubt very many are, probably not even a signifigant number.

Given that the premise that these people are not lieing still leaves for plenty of room for them to be incorrect and their attestations both disproven and false, I'm not sure why you suggest this is something I believe.

Its worth noting that these apparent spiritual experiences never seem to disclose any information to the user that could be tested, i.e. they apparently never gain anything but emotional conviction from them, and that such an experience is perfectly explainable as any number of psychological phenomena being motivated by desire to conform, to believe, to be convinced, to be saved.  This point seems relatively unescapable from all the evidence I've seen, and given the contrary would be relatively easy to prove, one can only presume there's a reason for that failure.

Plainly: that someone recalls experiencing something, especially something that they had foreknowledge of and wanted to believe then or later, is not particularly remarkable- especially given the apparent prohibition on gaining any information from these experiences.  In this sense the explanation of a "bona fide" cause to these experiences sorta doesn't matter: its the same in either case: someguy convinced something happened but with no new information.





And you might think those experiences have nothing to do with fire standing, but if you have one and can see a little more how reality actually is, then the idea of miracles, while very far out, is not impossible at all and that's why i'm defending it.



Quote:

guruu said:
Dying in war might...

So, for one thing dying in war, if for a cause, might...




Are you reciting metaphysical possibilities here or is there any particular reason to believe this?  Given the lack of justification for the latter, I'm not sure to what end these possibilities are offered- what's the point?


Quote:

But, less metaphysically, the violence supported in the Quran is representative of a darker time and a tradition composed of a very different culture. Not saying that culture is bad, in fact I think it was amazing, but just from a very different time and now the tradition seems to be in a quite turbulent phase of transition.




What does tradition and culture have to do with whether something is bad, or the culture bad?  Unless you buy into some meaningless moral relativism that sort of eschews the whole concept of such qualitative moral distinctions as you made in the first place, wrong, I don't see how these factors arer relevant: something is right or wrong irrespective of culture, tradition.

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Re: Fire Standing [Re: johnm214]
    #14237215 - 04/04/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How could we test the notion that consciousness is the fabric of the universe? I don't have an answer for you, I think quantum physics infers it but obviously that view is not held by all. Some things can't be proven beforehand, they have to be clearly seen. 

Believe me man, if you've had an awakening experience, there's no fucking doubt in your mind.  It's not flimsy at all.  It's every bit as powerful as a drug experience, but sober and sharp. And yeah, you can still come to wrong conclusions about plenty of things, but some things will just be very clear.  It's funny that you, as an exterior observer, demand some sort of testable aspects to spiritual reality.  Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.  You've gotta see for yourself, no ifs ands or buts.  Even spiritual truths we can learn from physics and other science (like the relativity of time and space, or the transient nature of all things) still have to truly be realized in the heart, and that's something very different from having an intellectual conviction about them.


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Re: Fire Standing [Re: johnm214]
    #14237255 - 04/04/11 04:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

guruu said:
Dying in war might...

So, for one thing dying in war, if for a cause, might...




Are you reciting metaphysical possibilities here or is there any particular reason to believe this?  Given the lack of justification for the latter, I'm not sure to what end these possibilities are offered- what's the point?




I don't know this for a fact but I have a fairly intricate idea of the metaphysics of reincarnation in my head so I was just going off that.  All of these things are indeed based on a web of associations in my head, just like somebody's conspiracy theory, but I trust myself enough to think that mine is accurate in at least some respects(just like many conspiracy theories :wink:) And here's the thing....even science and deductive reasoning is still based on a web of associations in your head.  Even if you really did logically and deductively prove to yourself everything you believe (which would make you quite a unique individual), the idea that logic is ultimately valid is still an unprovable idea. Further, be honest with yourself and look at how much of what you believe to be true really is based on a trust in academic authority, or trust in the source you got it from.  It's all about your sources, and I simply have left the farm a little bit and trust sources that others don't (although in the case of holy books i'm not exactly alone).


Quote:

Quote:

But, less metaphysically, the violence supported in the Quran is representative of a darker time and a tradition composed of a very different culture. Not saying that culture is bad, in fact I think it was amazing, but just from a very different time and now the tradition seems to be in a quite turbulent phase of transition.




What does tradition and culture have to do with whether something is bad, or the culture bad?  Unless you buy into some meaningless moral relativism that sort of eschews the whole concept of such qualitative moral distinctions as you made in the first place, wrong, I don't see how these factors arer relevant: something is right or wrong irrespective of culture, tradition.




It's not so much the culture, it's the time it happened in.  I think the world was in a period of lower creative energy (chi) for a long time following the fall of the Roman Empire, and as such even the most culturally advanced group (Islam) was still based in war.  Not all time periods are morally equal, in my belief.  There are times when war is justified, even noble, and times when it is not.


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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14237424 - 04/04/11 05:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

  It's funny that you, as an exterior observer, demand some sort of testable aspects to spiritual reality.  Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.




Man, you are a piece of work.

You say fire-standing is a possible and observable event based on advanced spiritual understanding.

Then you say that such observable events are unobservable.

You even contradict yourself in the same thread. :cuckoo:


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Re: Fire Standing [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14237879 - 04/04/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

not fires standing, the conversation had moved on. other subtle phenomena that would lend credence to the idea of miracles.


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Re: Fire Standing [Re: g00ru]
    #14237947 - 04/04/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Doesn't matter if the conversation moved on. Something cannot be both observable and unobservable.


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Re: Fire Standing [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14237959 - 04/04/11 07:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

true, but it can only be observable to a single person at a time due to its inherently internal nature.  Like a dream.  You can't observe my dream, you can't prove it exists and I can't prove to you that I had it.


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