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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14233667 - 04/03/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe I need to scare myself a little.:shrug:

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Invisiblebigmike7104
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Brainstem] * 1
    #14234140 - 04/03/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

the problem with the book is he relies on inaccurate science, relies a lot on Kierkegaard writings who was a 19th century philosopher and religious author, and reinterprets a lot of Sigmund Freud.

also i think he believes that because there's a physical response to get away from danger and do what we can to survive automatically means everyone psychologically fears death.

here's my response from a past thread showing some bold claims and scientific inaccuracies
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13999982/page/3/fpart/8/vc/1


Quote:

portrays the schizophrenic as incapable of conforming to normal cultural standards and is thus incapable of death denial.





Quote:

Freud's Oedipus complex is reinterpreted to reflect the existential project of avoiding the implications of being a "body," and thus being mortal. The boy is attracted to his mother in an effort to become his own father, thereby attempting to transcend his mortality through an imagined self-sufficiency.



http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Becker-Ernest.html

Quote:


Frankly I don't know any­thing more cogent that needs to be said about this syndrome: it is a failure in humanization, which means a failure to confidently deny man's real situation on this planet. Schizophrenia is the limiting test case for the theory of character and reality that we have been ex­pounding here: the failure to build dependable character defenses allows the true nature of reality to appear to man




evidence?


He also says

Quote:

Killing is a symbolic solution of a biological limitation; it results from the fusion of the biological level(animal anxiety) with the symbolic one(death fear) in the human animal.





that to me doesn't seem a plausible reason to explain why people kill each other

 
Quote:

Man has no innate instincts of sexuality and aggression.




definitely not true.

Quote:

Today we generally see homosexuality as a broad problem of ineptness, vague identity, passivity, helplessness--all in all, an inability to take a powerful stance toward life.




except for the fact it has been found in genes and other animals have been found to be gay

Quote:


The lower animals are, of course, spared this painful contradiction, as they lack a symbolic identity and the self-consciousness that goes with it.




except for studies are showing apes, dolphins, and elephants are self-aware. and it has been proven elephants mourn the dead.

Quote:


Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism performed the ingenious trick of pretending not to want to be reborn, which is a sort of negative magic: claiming not to want what you really want most




i don't know a lot about Buddhism, but that's a bold assertion.


--------------------
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines

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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14234647 - 04/04/11 02:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I think its more fear of the unknown. I don't really understand when you say we have to know it to fear it. I disagree with that.
Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is.
After all, it might turn out to be harmless and nothing to worry about.

People avoid death anxiety by acquiring knowledge on the after life, regardless of whether this knowledge is objectively verifiable.

Maybe i am misunderstanding your OP ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: jivJaN]
    #14234891 - 04/04/11 06:00 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is."

For that to be threatening, you still have to know about the mysterious threat. Without knowing anything at all, there is no fear.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: xFrockx]
    #14234944 - 04/04/11 06:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is."

For that to be threatening, you still have to know about the mysterious threat. Without knowing anything at all, there is no fear.




I'm sorry if I'm making an assumption here;
are you suggesting that we could somehow become re-ignorant about the fact of death, and therefore Becker's conclusions are incorrect?

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: bigmike7104] * 1
    #14234964 - 04/04/11 06:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

bigmike7104 said:
the problem with the book is he relies on inaccurate science, relies a lot on Kierkegaard writings who was a 19th century philosopher and religious author, and reinterprets a lot of Sigmund Freud.





The problem with the book is you refuse to read it then criticize it.  Are there flaws in the book, sure.  Is the basic premise sound..yep.  Here's some clips documenting empirical experiments from around the world which you might be interested in. 

Touches some of the early experiments and also new ones involving the universal human dream of flying as a death denying tool.  Last clip gets into the origins of religion and why it may be important to keep it around.



Clip 1


Clip 2


Clip 3


Clip 4


--------------------
What's up everybody?!

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #14235788 - 04/04/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, and it is as easy as realizing that we always were always ignorant. That requires realizing that you do not know what you think you know. To do that, one has to really think about their ideas, deconstruct them, find the loose ends, and question oneself to a point that most people are not comfortable with. It is very easy to fall back on common, socially-supported arguments to justify beliefs. I am constantly correcting myself, as evidenced by my incessant editing of posts. It can be difficult being your own worst enemy, but it saves one a lot of grief because when you're good at it, no one can be better at showing the faults in your (and consequently, others) ideas than yourself. That sort of things saves a person a lot of time in making decisions, and makes one a more independent thinker. Belief is what a person needs when the information available contradicts their premises. When there is no contradiction there, one does not need to hold on to anything to reconfirm a fact about reality. It will be there to be found whenever it is necessary. To think like this is to remove the burden of being correct from oneself and lay it down in the reality that can be checked and verified by anyone.

Edited by xFrockx (04/04/11 12:04 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: xFrockx]
    #14235850 - 04/04/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I will be plain short now and read all the previous answers later, then think my text here over:
The prime error is, that death anxiety is mixed up with anxiety itself. Anxiety is the primal fear itself, and it is a result from the not known. The consequences of stumbling unprepared into something not known may lead to death and suffering in the worst case, that's where the mixing up comes from. But it's the fear from the unknown first, in a biological sense. To avoid dying, to prolong staying a life, that's the reason behind it.

And now I tell you why this mix up is wrong:
There is nothing to experience while death any more, so it is nothing to know in biological terms for the individual anymore. The fear, rooted in the avoidance of dying has no purpose there anymore, as there is not that anymore in a physical sense. So there is nothing to fear about that anymore. It's over. No dark. Just blank nothingness in nonexistence of the brain filtered experience in any case.

So ugh guys, just don't tap blindly in unknown areas for a living, but evenly don't let them rip you away from that living joy, by binding us in something that we will never experience for real. The unknown ever also is there to become explored, not to be avoided only by some biological overrated reflex.

/rant


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (04/04/11 12:14 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14235872 - 04/04/11 12:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"Anxiety is the primal fear itself, and it is a result from the not known. "

I disagree with this much. I don't see anxiety as the result from the not known, I see it as the result of the dissonance that occurs when one has what one knows thrown out the window by new facts or doubt. Its a anxious feeling because we are in a period of reevaluating our beliefs about whatever it is that got chucked out the window when something happened or someone asked a question we couldn't answer, or when a shark comes for you and you no longer know if you'll make it back to the beach.

Unknowns alone do not cause fear. I don't know how long the sun will last, yet I do not fear this for being unknown. I do not know how many germs are on my keyboard, and I don't fear that either due to its unknownness. What might lead to anxiety or fear is being told that the sun will not rise tomorrow, or that there are enough germs on my keyboard that I will become sick, in which case my preconceptions are challenged, and I am forced to make new ones. But even this cognitive dissonance might not be existent in people who were ready and willing to admit they were wrong, people who do not profess to be wise or knowledgeable, and thus have everything to gain by learning, and nothing to lose by being corrected. Even in the case of learning the sun will go out tomorrow, not everyone would be scared, because some people might very well not have a reason to become more anxious after finding out this is their last day, among these would be mystics who have divorced themselves from human drama, terminal patients who would not see tomorrow anyway, or those who through some other process have come to live in such a way that they would remain unshaken by imminent doom.

Edited by xFrockx (04/04/11 12:17 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: xFrockx]
    #14235919 - 04/04/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yah, but isn't it the fact that it's not easy to know how many germs are on your keyboard that what causes more fear than to know that there might be enough already to cause you harm ?
Of course ones happiness (<->no harm) still plays the overprime role hehe in counterpart to the fear :wink:
If you know there are enough germs already then also the fear is gone when you continue to type on it (wash your hands before eating then :laugh:).
The unknown in combination with the harm (as a learned consequence) is the key and prime impulse. Harm that can lead in some rare cases to death.

Yah, if they know the sun would not rise tomorrow, fear would be less the case.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
    #14236044 - 04/04/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?



Isn't that what we did as we took enough mushrooms already ? :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236060 - 04/04/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:1upshroom: Yeah I guess so, but is there a specific method for using mushrooms in this way ?

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: jivJaN]
    #14236079 - 04/04/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
I think its more fear of the unknown. I don't really understand when you say we have to know it to fear it. I disagree with that.
Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is.
After all, it might turn out to be harmless and nothing to worry about.
[...]



Yah quite that :thumbup:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
    #14236098 - 04/04/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
:1upshroom: Yeah I guess so, but is there a specific method for using mushrooms in this way ?



Specific method always implies an individual procedure :smile:
I mean, the mushroom at least showed me how ingrained 'believes' can be at least and how fluently they can change depending on the viewpoint  of the viewer.
That makes me back-conclude (sorry english word missing) there is something quite specific about the individual human mind along all the other human and other minds.
Continuation of this thought is that what lets me imagine the dissolving of this existence into physical nothere-ness, but on the other 'hand' some 'living on' in the minds and the tellings... it made an impression among those who knew it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236280 - 04/04/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I know for instance that the Siberian shaman supposedly use A.muscaria in much the same way Ayahuasca is used in the Americas. There is the legend of the Soma cult in Asia. I personally haven't had any success with Fly Agaric, I have, however partaken in the mycological marvels that are the psilocybin containing species, and maybe not even to the outer limits of their power, but I have still come to appreciate the ability of psilocybin / psilocin to enable the herding together and improved observability of wandering thoughts, and the way in which it can twist and taint my perception of normality.
  I don't however think mushrooms offer the same, teetering on the edge of oblivion, glimpse of death as some of the darker plants. I base this mostly on things I have read, but my current learning curve is leading me towards these sirens of damnation, and a showdown with my own death, and any fears or delusions perpetuated in my anticipation thereof.
  This path may be a false yellow brick road, but even if it fails to yield any big answers, I will still be learning along the way.


--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
    #14236337 - 04/04/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I am not sure in how far brain related activities would have anything to do with some existence after death in this context. Death is the disconnection from our brain.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236524 - 04/04/11 02:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Then surely highly toxic plants like Datura, Atropa Belladonna and other plants rich in tropane alkaloids are what is called for, in order to drag us to the brink of the end ?

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
    #14240661 - 04/05/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

No need to risk ones life for that :oogle:
Why should our fantasies be connected to the afterlife (if there's any) anyhow ?
To loose ones own ego and view things from other perspectives is enough for me. Anything else you also can safely experience through oobes, lucid dreams or meditation. Tropane stuff is too dangerous in my book and only might lead to some distorted perception where fantasy and reality mix. Better to explore those separately.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: xFrockx]
    #14241118 - 04/05/11 10:41 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry I joined in late, but has anyone considered that Jesus uplifted himself to beyond self, and wanted to die to show that fear is not the last enemy, but that death itself is the last enemy?

Death sparked fear IMO. If you can't get over fear, then you sure as hell won't figure out what death is in your living state of well being. Instead of predominantly anticipating "your resting place," and living life the way the self wants to, many of you here have placed yourself in a magnificent confusion that just accepts what's coming to you and now you may just be breezing by, so to speak.

The Buddha said that we have to work out our own salvation, if this is true then how do we do so? It seems to me the first step would be to adopt a 'spiritual' or eternal attitude within everything. Buddha acted like he had a solidified foundation for everything beyond material in his head, and tried to manifest such teachings as such.

Think about it, if you lived your life avoiding anything to do with material pursuit and saw that all material is valueless, that could only mean one thing.. If you fear death, then you value the body that is material. Nobody said that letting go had to be easy, but then again, what value is there to create humans, or any material for that matter?

Perhaps to descend in consciousness? In other words, something outside of your body had to die, had to give up its current living conditions, to become a state of being that was put in a 'box' that could only recognize outer conditions.

This might get a little drawn out but bare with me..

Think of a video game. Your character running around has no idea what it is or how it got there - it is simply awaiting you to fulfill its role in the grand scheme of things in the life of its creation. The character can basically do nothing without your attention. There is no awareness.

Imagine if you installed an ego into the character. Fear, hate, joy, sorrow... and every time you went to go fight the boss, your person would take off running and screaming in terror, avoiding your control. While you know how to destroy the boss, your character simply denies all inner control and flees.

The character runs into town and finds a nice armor shop, and heads inside. And inside, he sees this invincible magic armor that would make him capable of winning the game on its own, but also a cute girl too. As easy as that, you are no longer in control to buy the armor to go back and fight, but instead your character has now began chatting with the cute chick and you once again lose control.

You now become very bored and walk off due to lack of control, but leave the game running. There appears to be no way of winning. After a while of the character's free experience of the world, the character runs into something that results in its death, and the game is started over, and he seems to be very confused.

After dying many times for many hours, the character realizes that it can't have more reality than it is given, and begins sobbing. When you return, you see the hard time the image is facing, and you pick up the controller and start moving him around. He quickly realizes he is no longer in control, and that something outside of himself is, and he begins shouting out for help to this 'doer.'

As you listen, you realize that this character wants out of the misery of the reality it is faced with, so you take control, and after time, the character gradually begins accepting your control. After some time, you take him back to the boss, but again he runs due to fear, but then realizes that he will only be reset. So he accepts your control, you kill the boss and the game is now complete, and you resume your daily life.

This basically illustrates that within every human there is a REAL doer and an UNREAL doer. While the game had an ending, the game of life never ends. It would seem that the goal of being here is to merely conquer all that drags you away from your inevitable ending, but instead walk right into it with total acceptance of being who you are to be able to defeat "the boss." What is that boss? Death?

Even afterwards, the game is over, what happened to your character? While he thought he was real, you knew he was totally unreal, and that you were real. But he didn't get to come into our reality? No, he is now but a memory for what he became.

Anyways, to get my point across, you are sent here on a mission, as many of you may know or disagree with - the aim of being here is to either ascend or descend in vibration. To become the open doorway for the true doer.

What happens after the game is finished? The only end is no end. Does anyone here understand that freedom? You are not the doer.


--------------------
I am up above all that I am down below..



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OfflineCursive
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cursive]
    #14241378 - 04/05/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, here's something that you all need to study..

Ask Real Jesus about DEATH


--------------------
I am up above all that I am down below..



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