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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233147 - 04/03/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I don't.




what makes you suspect it?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14233251 - 04/03/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:feelsbadman:

that is probably true but imo dont give death more than it deserves. if you want to find it everywhere in life you will!

its like freuds whole marrying mother killing father gig. there is probably some truth to that but it doesnt mean it should be put on a pedestal above any other kind of understanding you could have. if you want to explain everything by one set of assumptions then nothing u find can stop u skewing the evidence in its favor.

i dont doubt death anxiety is profound and to some very large extent what you are saying is true. i mean i think i am gonna read this book it sounds like there is a lot of value to it.

but dont give it more credit than it is due. it is so easy to put on your death anxiety glasses, your feminist glasses, your god glasses, your marxist glasses, your hand anxiety glasses etc etc etc

and view everything in the world from that slightly skewed perspective. attributing more to the idea than is the case.

:2cents:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: quinn]
    #14233289 - 04/03/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah dude, you're right about that. Death anxiety can give some pretty dark colored glasses when you cruise the world with it as your perspective. And it by no means needs to be the perspective you keep. Although I do think that, like the Buddhists, meditating on death is a solid practice and worthwhile endeavor.
Even if it :feelsbadman:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle] * 2
    #14233324 - 04/03/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:sadyes: i agree. was thinkin about it the other day. if life is about having the fullest range of experience (and so not getting stuck in the smaller comfortable behavior loops) then looking into the darker sides, into death, can only give you a fuller perspective to draw from.

how horrible it would be to die without ever having the chance to experience the sorrow of what dying truly means to you.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: quinn]
    #14233336 - 04/03/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?

Edited by Brainstem (04/03/11 09:05 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14233339 - 04/03/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

One assumption is less than two. Really, I wouldn't say there are things, plural, at all. I normally go with everything being one thing, merely because I cannot conclude that there are any separations that exist that would cordon off individual forces or objects.

Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:06 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14233356 - 04/03/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

LOL Icelander leaves and everyone finally starts reading the book.

Let us know what you think of the book Quinn.


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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14233372 - 04/03/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

anyone got a link where I can download it ? I can't find it anywhere, just pdf analyzing it.

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InvisibleCups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
    #14233393 - 04/03/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Just buy it dude.  Amazon has it for $9 brand new and it's worth the money.

http://www.amazon.com/Denial-Death-Ernest-Becker/dp/0684832402


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14233411 - 04/03/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think icelander sort of scared me off this stuff :hehehe:

will do Cups have a lot of uni to get thru atm tho (which i am skillfully avoiding by procrastinating on this damn site!) :mad:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233424 - 04/03/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

So you don't think a thing can exist at two points in time yet only grokked in one?

Example: I walk into a bar and notice a picture of Elvis that I didn't see a week ago. I ask the bartender if that picture has been up long, he says for as long as he has worked there, which is 3 years.

You would side with that picture of Elvis not existing prior to my mental awareness of it because of the potential separation that need be assumed? Is this pretty close to solipsism?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
    #14233459 - 04/03/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainstem said:
Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?




What do you mean by death initiation? What did you have in mind?

I've heard that the Greek's had a sort of initiation practice as part of their religious "mysteries" wherein a reflective surface was at the bottom of a vase, or jar, or something. As the new initiate walked in, the master would tell them to look into the vessel and see their true selves. As the initiate looked in, the angle was such that what was reflected on the bottom was an image of old age positioned elsewhere in the room. So the initiate looks in to find their true self and what they find is themselves old and decrepit. 


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14233491 - 04/03/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Cool:thumbup:

Every time Ice recommended it I could never find a pdf version, so I never read it, just whatever commentaries I could find about it.

  My opinion on this subject is that I see death as an inevitability, and for all the energy wasted in fear or denial of death IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, so why build our whole world view around the impermanence of existence ? I must admit though, the question of what lies beyond death does occupy my thoughts a lot, but I see this as coming from a desire for knowledge, to know what isn't known. There are so many possibilities, but the one that may invoke our death anxiety above all is the possibility that what lies beyond death is non-existence. I think if we knew for certain that the mind survived death in some capacity, death anxiety wouldn't be such a prominent force.


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The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14233524 - 04/03/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)


I can answer this much:

"So you don't think a thing can exist at two points in time?"

I don't believe that time, strictly speaking, exists. If we define time as merely the change of space, then I can understand that, but to say that there are two points in time would be to say that there are also two realities which exist independently of each other that a "thing" would exist in both. As I see it from the perspective of my own two eyes, the world is in a constant state of change, our sense of permanence or individuation of things is a cognitive ability we have, but not a reality beyond that. We want to say that an apple is a thing, but what separates the apple? Consider that just a few years prior the tree it came from was a seed. And soon after the apple is born from the tree, does it begin to ripen and rot, eventually perishing completely. But at what point did the flower become the bud, the bud become the apple, the apple become the dirt? We can all agree and talk about these things, certainly, but beyond that, there is a world that does not have separations. Even our categories are existent only in the world we sense, in sounds, sights, touches, tastes, feelings and smells. Strictly speaking, there is no such real thing as a category at all. What a category is is represented through the symbols we use "category" being one example, another being the sound of someone saying that word. When we say "apple" the precise brain state and subjective state that corresponds to the idea is different for everyone. Even the contents of this post will be taken differently by everyone who reads it. We can further clarify ourselves to seek clarity when needed, but there's never going to be an exact, one-to-one correspondence. And that's the rub.

"Is this pretty close to solipsism? "

No because solipsism assumes the existence of a self.

Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:38 PM)

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InvisibleBrainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #14233537 - 04/03/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Brainstem said:
Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?




What do you mean by death initiation? What did you have in mind?

I've heard that the Greek's had a sort of initiation practice as part of their religious "mysteries" wherein a reflective surface was at the bottom of a vase, or jar, or something. As the new initiate walked in, the master would tell them to look into the vessel and see their true selves. As the initiate looked in, the angle was such that what was reflected on the bottom was an image of old age positioned elsewhere in the room. So the initiate looks in to find themselves and what they find is themselves old and decrepit. 





I've read of a few different rituals from around the world. One from Greece I think, which involves isolation underground and the ingestion of , hyoscyamine / scopolamine containing plants along with a mystery play, there was another from India I think, similar to the first but during the underground isolation meditation and fasting are employed. There is also the Iboga rituals of Gabon, which are apparently a death initiation.

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233550 - 04/03/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The nature of time and space in relation to consciousness is a fascinating area imo.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
    #14233579 - 04/03/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've never been there.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233594 - 04/03/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233602 - 04/03/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:rolleyes:

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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
    #14233650 - 04/03/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well, IME the only way to deal with fear is to face it head on.  Have at it man, you'll be surprised how afraid you can be.

But I would only recommend doing that kind of thing if you are willing to take it all the way.  If you go half way and get stuck you'll be there the rest of your life.


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