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InvisiblePoid
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"Atheism is a religion."
    #14231853 - 04/03/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why do some people think this?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid] * 3
    #14231863 - 04/03/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Because one who is an atheist admits knowing something they cannot possibly confirm.

Then some people say that no, the possibility of God is ridiculous, I can clam the title atheist just fine.

Then others say "Yeah but that's not a rational argument towards the fictitious entity's non-existence"

Then the atheists say "Non-belief is not the same as belief, religion is belief and I do not believe"

Then the religious say "But you believe that God is absent, surely this also requires faith"

Then the atheist goes back to the God is ridiculous argument, and the cycle begins anew.


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 04:23 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14231874 - 04/03/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No they don't.

Atheism
Quote:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.





Even if they do, since when does belief necessarily = religion?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14231876 - 04/03/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's your choice as to the way you view existence... I wouldn't say it's a religion. That's just a poor choice of word that people will confuse with the word "belief".


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14231879 - 04/03/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
That's just a poor choice of word that people will confuse with the word "belief".


QFT


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14231892 - 04/03/11 04:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

see my edit


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14231912 - 04/03/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Because one who is an atheist admits knowing something they cannot possibly confirm.

Then some people say that no, the possibility of God is ridiculous, I can clam the title atheist just fine.

Then others say "Yeah but that's not a rational argument towards the fictitious entity's non-existence"

Then the atheists say "Non-belief is not the same as belief, religion is belief and I do not believe"


The absence of a belief is not the same thing as a belief.


Quote:

xFrockx said:
Then the religious say "But you believe that God is absent, surely this also requires faith"


Everything that doesn't have a belief in God is by definition atheist; this would include creatures besides humans.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14231958 - 04/03/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

this would include creatures besides humans.




I like that.. but I think we can safely assume it would be impossible to know what other creatures believe.

I've always kind of thought that they were better than us because their existence appears to have much more purpose than ours.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14231986 - 04/03/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do you measure how much purpose a life has?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14231999 - 04/03/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"The absence of a belief is not the same thing as a belief."

While I would tend to agree, because we live in a world where people often believe in God many people view the non-acceptance of these beliefs as an action in itself, and to some degree I can see where they are coming from. At least initially in my doubts of religion as a child, I did sortof see the rejection of belief in God as the acceptance of the belief that there is no God.

I don't know, but there is the question, how much different is not believing in god from believing that there is no god? Could one not say that they believe there is no god? Would that person still be an atheist?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232028 - 04/03/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Could one not say that they believe there is no god? Would that person still be an atheist?


Yes, because they would lack the belief that there is a God.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232029 - 04/03/11 04:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the real issue is to attempt to qualify what the religious sensation is and if it is wholly contingent on conceptions

insofar as we pick sides or something atheism is a stance like religion is a stance....

but I suppose it is moot really... the people that say atheism IS a religion are probably better to just say this:

humanism is religious




or something


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232039 - 04/03/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Lets say I believe God does not exist. And I don't budge from that position, that I have a belief there is no God. Can't I be atheist in a religious way by doing that?


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 04:53 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14232063 - 04/03/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Sure, you can be religiously atheist, I suppose; this does not make atheism a religion, though.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232067 - 04/03/11 04:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But it can be. Right?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232077 - 04/03/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think it really depends on how you define religion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232080 - 04/03/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Personally, and I do mean personally, I kind of view humanity as a bunch of confused creatures claiming to have some form of higher intelligence that they haven't even done really anything with.. Humanities greatest leaps have been in the form of how we entertain ourselves. Seriously, at the end of the day you can have your ipads, smart phones, and facebook; but none of that will TRULY matter when we finally hit the wall (and we will) environmentally and in other ACTUAL struggles.

The way I see an animal with the sole concern to survive and exist. Well I would pick that over all of our melodramatic and shallow "struggles" we engage in day to day.

If you don't believe that, that's cool. But I really think that my point could be proven by watching one episode of Jersey Shore or any other garbage show we spend more time watching than doing anything constructive.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232090 - 04/03/11 05:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Semantics then. :smile:


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232153 - 04/03/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

militant atheism functions similar to religion in that it's evangelized and has, to some extent, a congregation. i have a "secular student" organization at my school that makes the rounds in an attempt to recruit in the same way that the christian organizations do. these particular ones at my school spoke to my philosophy of religion class under the presupposition that any of us even held religious beliefs.

it's insulting. i don't need to be solicited to join a group based off of my deepest personal convictions, or lack thereof. i would tend to think that anyone, religious or not, seeking social interaction based on such would have no problem finding either on their own.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232186 - 04/03/11 05:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineSimms
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232447 - 04/03/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
No they don't.

Atheism
Quote:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.





Even if they do, since when does belief necessarily = religion?




You just fell into wikipedia trap and made a stupidest argument ever.

What if I wrote that in the Wikipedia and admit it is wrong?


--------------------


Edited by Simms (04/03/11 06:13 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Simms]
    #14232456 - 04/03/11 06:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe you; if it was wrong, it would have been removed already (it's been there for quite a while). Wikipedia articles have a sort of peer-review process, involving many experts from various fields.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineSimms
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232511 - 04/03/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't believe you; if it was wrong, it would have been removed already (it's been there for quite a while). Wikipedia articles have a sort of peer-review process, involving many experts from various fields.




There is a reason why Wikipedia is not considered a source in academical society. But I let you believe so. What else do you believe?


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232532 - 04/03/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's one thing to define atheism as a lack of belief in a God, quite another to be militant about the impossibility or absence of God.

I certainly wouldn't call an absence of belief a religion, but the latter stuff smacks of religious dogmatism.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Simms]
    #14232550 - 04/03/11 06:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Simms said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I don't believe you; if it was wrong, it would have been removed already (it's been there for quite a while). Wikipedia articles have a sort of peer-review process, involving many experts from various fields.




There is a reason why Wikipedia is not considered a source in academical society.


You mean there is a reason why college/university professors won't let you cite Wikipedia as a source? They do that because they feel that using Wikipedia is too easy, and they want their students to learn how to seek out other sources.

If that's not what you mean, then I'd like to see a source which backs up what you do mean.


Quote:

Simms said:
But I let you believe so.


You're not in any position to "let" me do anything.


Quote:

Simms said:
What else do you believe?


That what else I believe is not relevant to this discussion.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo] * 1
    #14232559 - 04/03/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
...the latter stuff smacks of religious dogmatism.


Just because somebody can be religiously atheist, doesn't mean that atheism is a religion; for example, I can follow my daily routine religiously, but that doesn't make it a religion.


Quote:

Poid said:
If we define religion as being a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values, then atheism is by no means a religion.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14232585 - 04/03/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A semantic argument with a definition from a peer-reviewed encyclopedia is still a semantic argument.

And so is that, but I'm not going to make any bones about it. Why you do is beyond my comprehension. When I used to do it, it was to feel good by making other people feel stupid. Is that what you like Poid?


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 06:43 PM)


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OfflineSimms
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232587 - 04/03/11 06:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I certainly wouldn't call atheism an absense of belief. Its more like absence of admitting the God, its a denial of God. Some atheists believe in UFOs, some atheists even go as far as to believe that ETs planted life on Earth. Some atheists go as far as claim that interdimentional ETs planted life on Earth.

That, plus: Atheists give a shit, and more and more act like religious nutjobs. They make a cult of their own.

Just don't give a shit and free your mind of unneccesary hatrid.


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232591 - 04/03/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If we define religion as being a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values, then atheism is by no means a religion.




What I was trying to say is that it certainly is a religion to some people, and it is to those people the claim that "atheism is a religion" is made.

The claim should then be "Your atheism is a religion," but that's human imprecision of speech.

The over-arching belief that all religions are somehow harmful and responsible for all the ills in the world and bad for everyone that practices them has taken on precisely the qualities you listed, and more. All the dogma and symbology you want.

I'm just as annoyed as Simms with the semantics, but I think there may still be useful discussion made around it, if Poid truly doesn't understand where this claim is coming from.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


Edited by Kid_Orgo (04/03/11 06:42 PM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232592 - 04/03/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
A semantic argument with a definition from a peer-reviewed encyclopedia is still a semantic argument.

And so is that, but I'm not going to make any bones about it.


I never said anything to the contrary.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232609 - 04/03/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
Quote:

If we define religion as being a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values, then atheism is by no means a religion.




What I was trying to say is that it certainly is a religion to some people, and it is to those people the claim that "atheism is a religion" is made.


It is not a religion to anybody, there is no atheist cultural system that creates powerful and long lasting meaning.


Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
I'm just as annoyed as Simms with the semantics, but I think there may still be useful discussion made around it, if Poid truly doesn't understand where this claim is coming from.


It's coming from a misunderstanding of what both religion and atheism are.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232616 - 04/03/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No, it's coming from not matching the cherry-picked definition you found exactly.

It's perfectly intelligible to anyone else here.

Lets pretend though that what you're saying is the exact definition of religion and everyone agrees on it:

Quote:

It is not a religion to anybody, there is no atheist cultural system that creates powerful and long lasting meaning.




It certainly IS a cultural system, that has as its central theme the evil of religion, and how it's used to enslave the sheeple.

I've seen plenty of people giving the tenets of militant atheism "powerful meaning," and it's a long tradition going all the way back.

Even by your own definition, some people's atheism constitutes a religion.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


Edited by Kid_Orgo (04/03/11 06:52 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232627 - 04/03/11 06:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

...that creates powerful and long lasting meaning.


Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
It certainly IS a cultural system, that has as it's central theme the evil of religion...


*its:nerd:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232637 - 04/03/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well the claim that atheism is a religion is also a semantic argument. So if I'm not mistaken you began this thread with some degree of aversion to those who make that argument. Yet now you recognize that your argument is of exactly the same character as the theirs.

So what are you doing, exactly?


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 06:49 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232639 - 04/03/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
I've seen plenty of people giving the tenets of militant atheism "powerful meaning," and it's a long tradition going all the way back.

Even by your own definition, some people's atheism constitutes a religion.


Shit, then political parties are also religions. :tard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14232642 - 04/03/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Disbelieving in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a religion too.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232647 - 04/03/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I feel like practicing against a religion is the most dogmatic thing you can do...

when you say no long lasting meaning it could mean scientific long lasting meaning... it's possible to BELIEVE IN SCIENCE


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232654 - 04/03/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Well the claim that atheism is a religion is also a semantic argument. So if I'm not mistaken you began this thread with some degree of aversion to those who make that argument. Yet now you recognize that your argument is of exactly the same character as the theirs.

So what are you doing, exactly?


Showing the stupidity of people who think atheism is a religion in the same way that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is a religion--why this isn't obvious to you is beyond me. :justdontknow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232655 - 04/03/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, by your definition they are. I don't think your definition is a good one.

And you can try to bait me all you want with graemlins and disrespect, I'm not going to get pissed about this.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


Edited by Kid_Orgo (04/03/11 06:54 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14232666 - 04/03/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Disbelieving in the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a religion too.


Mmm, flying spaghetti. :homerdrool:



Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
I feel like practicing against a religion is the most dogmatic thing you can do...


What do you mean by "practicing against a religion"?


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
when you say no long lasting meaning it could mean scientific long lasting meaning... it's possible to BELIEVE IN SCIENCE


There is no "meaning" in science, meaning is subjective.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo] * 1
    #14232675 - 04/03/11 06:55 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
Yeah, by your definition they are. I don't think your definition is a good one.

And you can try to bait me all you want with graemlins and disrespect, I'm not going to get pissed about this.


I'm not disrespecting you, I'm disrespecting your posts; there's a difference, I'm sure of it...:strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232682 - 04/03/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you're saying that because atheism as a formal doctrine can only be traced back to the Enlightenment, it is therefore not a "long-lasting" system of belief?

And keep in mind, I'm talking specifically about atheism as a faith, a cultural phenomenon, not "the absence of a belief in God"


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


Edited by Kid_Orgo (04/03/11 06:57 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232685 - 04/03/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Showing the stupidity of people who think atheism is a religion in the same way that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is a religion--why this isn't obvious to you is beyond me."

Stupidity? I would say the only stupidity here is when a person thinks their semantic argument holds any ground over another semantic argument.


You manage to see the stupidity in religious folks doing it to atheists, but you fail to see the stupidity of atheists doing it to religious people.

This is your bias.


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 06:58 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232691 - 04/03/11 06:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is not a system of belief, period; how many times must this be repeated? :noob:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232701 - 04/03/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
And keep in mind, I'm talking specifically about atheism as a faith, a cultural phenomenon, not "the absence of a belief in God"


Then you're not talking about atheism; are all cultural phenomenon religions IYO? :imslow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232706 - 04/03/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
It is not a system of belief, period; how many times must this be repeated? :noob:




So clearly, if you restrict your definition of atheism to "the absence of a belief in God," you are correct.

But that is not what that means to many people, there are plenty of people who would call themselves atheists, to whom that means a certainty in the absence of God.

I am talking about them, their belief system constitutes a religion.

It has saints, (Dawkins is the only one that comes to mind), it has villains (the Church), and so on.

To some people, atheism is a religion in the exact way you've defined it.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232707 - 04/03/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I'm sure of it...:strokebeard:



But how can you be sure of anything??? everything is subjective!?!? That's why we have these discussions and participate in arguments... To fortify meaning... or belief... or the lack there of.

and by "practicing against".. I was referring to the militant atheism comment you made


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232710 - 04/03/11 07:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You can repeat it all you want, but your echoes cannot silence atheists who voluntarily believe that god does not exist. These folks are, perhaps unwittingly, the counterexample to your argument.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14232716 - 04/03/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I took today off to celebrate Atheist Day. We all got together and wore robs and sang hymns and made offerings to no one.


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232717 - 04/03/11 07:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Showing the stupidity of people who think atheism is a religion in the same way that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is a religion--why this isn't obvious to you is beyond me."

Stupidity? I would say the only stupidity here is when a person thinks their semantic argument holds any ground over another semantic argument.


It's not a purely semantic argument; some people have a false idea of what religion is, and believe atheism to be a religion. Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232724 - 04/03/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
If you take for granted my lone cherry-picked wikipedia definitions of "religion" and "atheism," the claim is incorrect





--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14232725 - 04/03/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
You can repeat it all you want, but your echoes cannot silence atheists who voluntarily believe that god does not exist. These folks are, perhaps unwittingly, the counterexample to your argument.


So militant atheism is a religion? I guess the United States Armed Forces are religions as well? :flowstone:


Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I took today off to celebrate Atheist Day. We all got together and wore robs and sang hymns and made offerings to no one.


I fucking love Atheist Day! :Awemazing:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232727 - 04/03/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
Quote:

Poid said:
If you take for granted my lone cherry-picked wikipedia definitions of "religion" and "atheism," the claim is incorrect






Why do you believe the definitions I posted were cherry-picked? Do you have any alternatives to offer?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232728 - 04/03/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
You can repeat it all you want, but your echoes cannot silence atheists who voluntarily believe that god does not exist. These folks are, perhaps unwittingly, the counterexample to your argument.


So militant atheism is a religion? I guess the United States Armed forces are religions as well? :flowstone:




Another attempted distraction and more disrespect.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232731 - 04/03/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:curbyourenthusiasm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232737 - 04/03/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Why do you believe the definitions I posted were cherry-picked? Do you have any alternatives to offer?




Do you really need examples to know that word definitions vary and your arguments pertain only to the ones you chose?

This more feigned ignorance for rhetorical effect.


--------------------
He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232740 - 04/03/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid."

Before we go any further, please provide the following:

1. A true idea of what religion is.

2. A true idea of what atheism is.

"So militant atheism is a religion? I guess the United States Armed Forces are religions as well?"

Once you have provided 1 and 2, we can talk about this.


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:07 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232749 - 04/03/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid."

Before we go any further, please provide the following:

1. A true idea of what religion is.

2. A true idea of what atheism is.

"So militant atheism is a religion? I guess the United States Armed Forces are religions as well?"

Once you have provided 1 and 2, we can talk about this.



:thumbup: Frock FTW


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232758 - 04/03/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kid_Orgo said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Why do you believe the definitions I posted were cherry-picked? Do you have any alternatives to offer?




Do you really need examples to know that word definitions vary and your arguments pertain only to the ones you chose?


Can you please answer my questions; I know this is hard, but I really want you to at least try.



Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid."

Before we go any further, please provide the following:

1. A true idea of what religion is.

2. A true idea of what atheism is.


I already did this.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232766 - 04/03/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I already did this. "

Oh so they were true? Are you saying to me that the definitions you provided are not only definitions, they are also true?

Once I'm clear on this we can get to the fun part.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232771 - 04/03/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I already did this. "

Oh so they were true? Are you saying to me that the definitions you provided are not only definitions, they are also true?


True as in correct, yes; why are you having so much difficulty with this? :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232773 - 04/03/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid."

Before we go any further, please provide the following:

1. A true idea of what religion is.

2. A true idea of what atheism is.


I already did this.



HA-HA! FAIL. Game over dude...


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14232775 - 04/03/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So you're telling me that the definitions I provided were incorrect? FAIL.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232784 - 04/03/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

True as in correct? Oh you are so shy!

Why not true as just in true? Lets not complicate things. Are the definitions true or not? You already said they were, I just want confirmation before moving forward. You can be a very slippery fish.


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:18 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14232796 - 04/03/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
So you're telling me that the definitions I provided were incorrect? FAIL.




So I read two things from this...
1.You are super good at FAILing to see anyone else's criticism
2.You sit down when you pee


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14232841 - 04/03/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Lets say you lack a belief in ghosts. Does this make the lack of belief a religion? No. Atheism is just a lack of belief nothing more. Some may act religious and act in a cult like manner but this does not make atheism a religion.

Atheism does not define someone the same way your lack of belief in unicorns does not.


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: BluePixieWaves]
    #14232901 - 04/03/11 07:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BluePixieWaves said:
Lets say you lack a belief in ghosts. Does this make the lack of belief a religion? No. Atheism is just a lack of belief nothing more. Some may act religious and act in a cult like manner but this does not make atheism a religion.

Atheism does not define someone the same way your lack of belief in unicorns does not.




:yesnod:

Poid's definitions are true and correct.


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InvisibleKid_Orgo
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: BluePixieWaves]
    #14232916 - 04/03/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Can you please answer my questions; I know this is hard, but I really want you to at least try.




I did,  sarcastically.

Why do I believe the definitions you posted were cherry-picked?  Because any single definition of a word cannot encompass the whole of its meanings. The one you picked and cling to is but one facet of what the word religion means.

Second question, no, I'm not going to google up ten more for you. 

You still haven't addressed the fact that by your own incredibly broad definition of religion, the atheism practiced by some is one, aside from pointing to your own overly restrictive definition of what atheism is.

You ask any man on the street what atheism is, they'd say it's not believing in God.

Whether you take that to mean "the absence of a belief in God" or "belief in the absence of God" is something not well-differentiated. It's immaterial, because it definitely CAN mean the second, and clearly has been used in that sense in various discussions on this board.


I will agree to exactly the following:

"Given that religion is exactly as you defined it, then atheism exactly as you defined it is not a religion"

And that's it.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14232935 - 04/03/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Looks like we're going to need at least one more definition then:

1. The true definition of truth.

Here's the wiki, Poid can't even use this one:

"Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with a particular fact or reality, or being in accord with the body of real things, real events or actualities.[1] It can also mean having fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal. In a common archaic usage it also meant constancy or sincerity in action or character.[1] The direct opposite of truth is "falsehood", which can correspondingly take logical, factual or ethical meanings.

However, language and words are essentially "tools" by which humans convey information to one another. As such, "truth" must have a beneficial use in order to be retained within language. Defining this potency and applicability can be looked upon as "criteria", and the method used to recognize a "truth" is termed a criterion of truth. Since there is no single accepted criterion, they can all be considered "theories".

Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars and philosophers. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute."


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
    #14232947 - 04/03/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i said that militant atheism functions like a religion in some respects, not that it is one. atheism lacks the structure of being classified as a religion, but it is a belief system in that it is witnessed, or evangelized, in a similar way as some organized religions.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
    #14232956 - 04/03/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The depth of this thread will be talked about for millenia to come.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14232968 - 04/03/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Looks like we're going to need at least one more definition then:

1. The true definition of truth.

Here's the wiki, Poid can't even use this one:

"Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with a particular fact or reality, or being in accord with the body of real things, real events or actualities.[1] It can also mean having fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal. In a common archaic usage it also meant constancy or sincerity in action or character.[1] The direct opposite of truth is "falsehood", which can correspondingly take logical, factual or ethical meanings.

However, language and words are essentially "tools" by which humans convey information to one another. As such, "truth" must have a beneficial use in order to be retained within language. Defining this potency and applicability can be looked upon as "criteria", and the method used to recognize a "truth" is termed a criterion of truth. Since there is no single accepted criterion, they can all be considered "theories".

Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars and philosophers. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute."




Yeah, that is a theoretical definition of truth :tongue:.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233005 - 04/03/11 07:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

truth is absolute. our perception of it is relative. imo.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
    #14233013 - 04/03/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Imo, truth and reality are the same thing. The idea that language is true is a useful, but illusory way of asserting something with confidence. By considering truth and reality as the same thing, questions about what to think is true are greatly simplified.


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:02 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233050 - 04/03/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The reality is that most atheists define themselves by the definition that Poid provided, they "lack belief in higher powers" basically.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233064 - 04/03/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So?


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:12 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233084 - 04/03/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Imo, truth and reality are the same thing. The idea that language is true is a useful, but illusory way of asserting something with confidence. By considering truth and reality as the same thing, questions about what to think is true are greatly simplified.




as i said above, truth is the totality of all that is. our experience of it just varies.

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
The reality is that most atheists define themselves by the definition that Poid provided, they "lack belief in higher powers" basically.




i won't criticize anyone for believing what they do, but i don't exactly understand writing off metaphysics. reality is imbued with the intangible, from our minds, emotions, to our perfected mathematical and moral models. none of these things exist in physical reality and yet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who denies they exist. materialism just seems like cynicism for the sake of it imo.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
    #14233091 - 04/03/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"none of these things exist in physical reality and yet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who denies they exist. "

Right here boss. You found him.


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:20 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233129 - 04/03/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so where exactly do the ideas of perfect mathematical forms, moral perfection originate from? we can conceive of a perfect circle but yet nothing like it exists in nature, only in our mathematical models. the idea of moral perfection only exists in our mythology and is something to be striven for and never achieved. our consciousness exists but yet material science cannot seem to define or measure it.

disbelieve all you like though. :smile:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14233135 - 04/03/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So all of the argument about whether Poids definitions are true or not is pointless, what matters is whether or not they accurately describe the things being discussed. 

Quote:

Poid said:
If we define religion as being a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values, then atheism is by no means a religion.




This is accurate of every religion I know about.


Quote:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.




Atheists do not attempt to create "powerful and long-lasting meaning".  Atheists establish no symbols, and do not relate humanity to beliefs and values.  Atheists generally believe that reality is how they perceive it, and don't believe in things that they can't see and have no evidence for.  That is not a religion.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233154 - 04/03/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Atheists do not attempt to create "powerful and long-lasting meaning".  Atheists establish no symbols, and do not relate humanity to beliefs and values.  Atheists generally believe that reality is how they perceive it, and don't believe in things that they can't see and have no evidence for.  That is not a religion.




bullshit. see marx and freud for two "long lasting" examples of arguments for atheism.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
    #14233174 - 04/03/11 08:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do you think every atheist has read them? I doubt that very many have, to be honest.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233183 - 04/03/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so you're saying that there are people out there who hold belief systems in which they aren't very educated? hmmm...


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Edited by millzy (04/03/11 08:38 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy] * 2
    #14233204 - 04/03/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Atheism requires no education.  Atheism is not a belief system.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14233216 - 04/03/11 08:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Why do some people think this?





maybe because some people live their lives religiously atheist? or, maybe because the concept of 'religion' is far too narrowed down by the Judeo-Christian-Islamic embellishment of 'religion'?


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233222 - 04/03/11 08:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Atheism requires no education.  Atheism is not a belief system.




it is a belief that could easily become the foundation to an established belief system with atheist ideals at its core.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14233234 - 04/03/11 08:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is not a belief.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233254 - 04/03/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

atheism is not a religion, but that doesn't mean it doesn't define philosophical framework in which to contemplate your ideology. atheism's lack of liturgy and symbolism don't inhibit its ability to influence your world view, which last i checked is the same way a belief system functions.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14233262 - 04/03/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

Shroomerette said:
Atheism requires no education.  Atheism is not a belief system.




it is a belief that could easily become the foundation to an established belief system with atheist ideals at its core.




see also: marxism


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233274 - 04/03/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This thread must not drone on any longer.

Quote:

Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.[5][6]







The actual wiki page goes on to describe all the different types of rejection of god there are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233292 - 04/03/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
It is not a belief.




atheism is a belief.
Quote:

–noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no god.
2.
disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.




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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14233378 - 04/03/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think definition 2 is more accurate.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
    #14233409 - 04/03/11 09:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"so where exactly do the ideas of perfect mathematical forms, moral perfection originate from?"

They don't originate from anywhere. Each person who grasps these concepts has a brain state to match.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233433 - 04/03/11 09:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so you're saying that these "brain states" exists in material reality, correct?


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233455 - 04/03/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I think definition 2 is more accurate.




well your opinion is nice and all, but it's your opinion.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14233477 - 04/03/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

meatcakeman said:
Quote:

Shroomerette said:
I think definition 2 is more accurate.




well your opinion is nice and all, but it's your opinion.




:shrug: Even if definition one is right it still doesn't qualify as  religion.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
    #14233517 - 04/03/11 09:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:



see also: marxism




:laugh2: :awesomenod:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233600 - 04/03/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Depends on what you define religion as.

For fucks sake are we just gonna have to keep repeating this shit? RTMFT


Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:45 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14233631 - 04/03/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I think I've said about everything I want to say, peace out :peace:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14233636 - 04/03/11 09:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Then why did you say more?


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14234057 - 04/03/11 11:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Atheism is a belief in no gods. Religion is a belief in a god. Only difference is... Religion is an institution that teaches basic principles on how to be in life vs atheism doesn't teach you anything unless you consider a dad teaching his kid on how to live life a religion, in which there are no basic principles because every parent raises their kid differently.

On a different note, I was a former atheist but due to some experience with the ouija board I am now agnostic. It led me to believe there is a spiritual world which science can not explain.


Edited by 1minutehasgoneby (04/03/11 11:15 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14234468 - 04/04/11 01:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

.


Edited by Johnny Depp (12/19/14 04:09 AM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Johnny Depp]
    #14234895 - 04/04/11 06:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Please provide the dictionary of actual defintions plz


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236294 - 04/04/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Showing the stupidity of people who think atheism is a religion in the same way that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is a religion--why this isn't obvious to you is beyond me."

Stupidity? I would say the only stupidity here is when a person thinks their semantic argument holds any ground over another semantic argument.


It's not a purely semantic argument; some people have a false idea of what religion is, and believe atheism to be a religion. Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid.



Stupid are those who exclude that what they don't know.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236343 - 04/04/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You mean "that which they don't know"? :lol:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236432 - 04/04/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

...that what, which... or ...that which, what...
I don't mind


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236450 - 04/04/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Who is excluding that which they don't know?


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fireworks_god said:
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236534 - 04/04/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not excluding it, I only say there are more possibilities.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236539 - 04/04/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What the hell are you talking about? :lol:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236553 - 04/04/11 02:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv175.shtml
"However, when we are choosing between just two or three options, we usually prefer which. If there is no limit to the number of choices, what is used. "


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236613 - 04/04/11 02:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Who is excluding that which they don't know?



Those who proclaim all what exists is that what they know and vice versa.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14236671 - 04/04/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

OK.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236875 - 04/04/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
What the hell are you talking about? :lol:



I know what you're talking about :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14236900 - 04/04/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm so late to this party.

All I have to say is,



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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Freedom]
    #14237529 - 04/04/11 06:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A intersect B = Jesus fish?


--------------------


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Invisible1minutehasgoneby
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14237817 - 04/04/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

re·li·gion
   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious  beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.
something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.
religions, Archaic . religious  rites.
8.
Archaic . strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom
9.
get religion, Informal .
a.
to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b.
to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14238046 - 04/04/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Johnny Depp]
    #14239517 - 04/04/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Johnny Depp said:
People think atheism is a religion because they don't actually know the meaning of the terms atheism, religion, or both.

It's like saying an apple is an orange.




people don't think atheism is a religion because they don't actually know the meaning of the terms atheism, religion, or both, but usually just religion.


Quote:


http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Suydam/Reln101/Sevendi.htm

http://creation.com/atheism-a-religion

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=31895





--------------------
大开眼界

:awegroove:
:fbsnugs::fbsnugs::fbsnugs:
Hasta siempre, comandante.
:mattz:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14239523 - 04/04/11 11:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

lol @ creation.com as a source


--------------------
Leaving the shroomery forever


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Offlinemeatcakeman
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14239537 - 04/04/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerette said:
lol @ creation.com as a source




it's just a fairly similar description to what i personally believe as my opinion. maybe if you actually read it, you'd see why i posted it.


--------------------
大开眼界

:awegroove:
:fbsnugs::fbsnugs::fbsnugs:
Hasta siempre, comandante.
:mattz:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: meatcakeman]
    #14239717 - 04/05/11 12:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Just because the definition of atheism is a lack of belief in god doesn't mean it's not a belief.  You believe that you have a lack of belief, do you not? Better in my opinion to let the entire atheism belief just float along, all it's doing is making you more argumentative, lets face it


--------------------
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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14239754 - 04/05/11 12:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:whatever:

I must be a member of infinite religions for all the infinite things I do not believe in - as does everyone else. :rolleyes:


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14239769 - 04/05/11 12:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not saying you're in a religion I'm just drawing a parallel between belief structures.  And yeah there's a million things I don't believe in also, the only difference is I'm not clinging to my "lack of belief" like you are if you self-identify as an atheist, in which case the thought is very present in your mind.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14239782 - 04/05/11 12:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
:whatever:

I must be a member of infinite religions for all the infinite things I do not believe in - as does everyone else. :rolleyes:




not believing in a god, or gods, has far more implications than not believing in aliens, or Big Foot. it completely changes your worldview and inevitably has an impact on your very psychology: how you behave, what you believe, etc. that's why it becomes a belief, rather than disbelief. something that structures how you live could definitely constitute as something more "religious," not necessarily a religion.


--------------------
大开眼界

:awegroove:
:fbsnugs::fbsnugs::fbsnugs:
Hasta siempre, comandante.
:mattz:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14239786 - 04/05/11 12:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Let's try something simple if you can handle it WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION.

Babies are born atheists: true or false? Two choices only.


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14240481 - 04/05/11 06:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You don't seriously think you're gonna get a straight answer there, do you? It would totally undermine the atheism-is-a-religion premise so you'll get five pages of runaround instead.

The more faithful people are, the less honest they are even with themselves, in my experience.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14240527 - 04/05/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know, I've never asked a baby. For all I know they believe in God out of the womb, they just don't have language to say so. :shrug:

I would be inclined to say they didn't, but if they didn't would they be athiest or agnostic, or maybe neither? They don't have a voice to speak the finer points of their beliefs or lack thereof.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14240850 - 04/05/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

For some (not all), atheism serves the same function as a religious belief, in that it provides some degree of metaphysical certainty and helps to define their identity.

Weak atheism (lack of belief in a deity, as opposed to an affirmative belief that there is no god) is indistinguishable from some types of agnosticism, which is basically the only justified viewpoint IMO.


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14241153 - 04/05/11 10:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A intersect B = Jesus fish?





damn it must be a conspiracy, Venn must have be a fundie


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14241161 - 04/05/11 10:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

For all I know they believe in God out of the womb

That's inconsistent with the fact that children almost universally adopt the religion (or lack of religion) of their parents.

They're not born Catholic or Jewish or Muslim or Pastafarian or Arkleseizurian. They learn to worship invisible entities in the sky (or are taught critical thinking) from their parents.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Diploid]
    #14241199 - 04/05/11 10:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arkleseizurian




Gesdundheit!


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Freedom]
    #14241211 - 04/05/11 11:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
A intersect B = Jesus fish?





damn it must be a conspiracy, Venn must have be a fundie





Venni
Vidi
Vishie

"I came, I saw, I fished." :fishing:


--------------------


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Diploid]
    #14241311 - 04/05/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"That's inconsistent with the fact that children almost universally adopt the religion (or lack of religion) of their parents."

Who says babies can't convert? :shrug:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Diploid]
    #14242290 - 04/05/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You don't seriously think you're gonna get a straight answer there, do you? It would totally undermine the atheism-is-a-religion premise so you'll get five pages of runaround instead.

The more faithful people are, the less honest they are even with themselves, in my experience.


QFT:stoned:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14242336 - 04/05/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Actually babies don't convert, they don't know what god is, and no... they don't speak.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14242704 - 04/05/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
For some (not all), atheism serves the same function as a religious belief, in that it provides some degree of metaphysical certainty and helps to define their identity.

Weak atheism (lack of belief in a deity, as opposed to an affirmative belief that there is no god) is indistinguishable from some types of agnosticism, which is basically the only justified viewpoint IMO.




:congrats:

qft.


--------------------
大开眼界

:awegroove:
:fbsnugs::fbsnugs::fbsnugs:
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Re: [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14243940 - 04/05/11 07:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do you know this? Do you remember being a baby? Ever talked to a baby?

I'm not trying to conclude that they really are born believing in God, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know.


Edited by xFrockx (04/05/11 07:47 PM)


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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244195 - 04/05/11 08:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I've been a baby. I didn't believe shit; if I did, it has had zero effect on my life because I completely forgot about it.


--------------------


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Re: [Re: xFrockx] * 1
    #14244205 - 04/05/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I remember being a baby. I also remember believing in Santa Clause. And yes I've talked to a baby. They are dumb and make no sense whatsoever


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Re: [Re: 1minutehasgoneby]
    #14244234 - 04/05/11 08:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If a baby talked to you, it was a toddler.


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Re: [Re: NetDiver]
    #14244247 - 04/05/11 08:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wow you guys must have much better memories than mine. I don't remember anything before 2. Want to give me a brief rundown of the first two years of your life? Places you went, things you did? Be specific.


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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244305 - 04/05/11 08:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Like I said, even if I did believe something as a baby, it had zero effect on me because I do not remember it at all.

Plus, areas of the brain that are correlated with things like beliefs (as well as other faculties necessary for abstract thinking, such as language) are not developed in babies.

So, I think we are fairly qualified to make the assumption that babies have no beliefs. I can't even believe we're arguing this.


--------------------


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Re: [Re: NetDiver]
    #14244334 - 04/05/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Like I said, even if I did believe something as a baby, it had zero effect on me because I do not remember it at all."

You do not remember it, yet you KNOW that you did not believe anything.

Hmmm.....

"Plus, areas of the brain that are correlated with things like beliefs (as well as other faculties necessary for abstract thinking, such as language) are not developed in babies."

Is the source of this your ass?

"So, I think we are fairly qualified to make the assumption that babies have no beliefs. I can't even believe we're arguing this. "

I don't disagree it seems likely, but to say I know is just a little bit too assumptive for me.


Edited by xFrockx (04/05/11 08:47 PM)


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244390 - 04/05/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.multcolib.org/birthtosix/braindev.html

http://www.howtodothings.com/health-and-fitness/a3762-how-to-understand-infant-cognitive-development.html

Quote:

Birth to 1 month - At this stage of baby development, infants respond purely by reflex (e.g. sucking in response to a nipple). There isn't really any cognitive process in these actions. They imitate observed mouth movements, which is the first language milestone, but vocal cords are too undeveloped to form language-like sounds.

1-4 months - Infants start to understand patterns, such as the presence of a bottle means that it is feeding time. Infants start to choose to do things because they anticipate the outcome. They learn trust (if their needs are met) or mistrust (if they are not). They begin cooing and making vowel noises, and by the end of this period, they have started to make some consonant sounds (b, k, m, g, p).




Just two sources I found within literally 30 seconds. Babies don't even start to recognize patterns until a month after birth, much less abstract concepts like "god." They don't even understand simple words until after 4 months (at earliest). To suggest babies are born believing in god is contrary to every bit of evidence we have.

If we can know anything, we can know that babies are not born believing in god.


--------------------


Edited by NetDiver (04/05/11 08:59 PM)


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Re: [Re: NetDiver]
    #14244417 - 04/05/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But they just don't have these things because of their direct link to God himself...

(not being serious, but its still a :shrug:)


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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14244487 - 04/05/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: [Re: Poid]
    #14250055 - 04/06/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So 500 posts ago I talked about animals and other creatures... yea.. babies probably fit into that category.

I mean seriously, isn't that why being a child is such a beautiful thing? Yes I was conditioned in Christianity when I was young, but even then I wasn't posing the question of evil to myself. The message was love, and that was something I did know even if I was very naive.

You call it nature, science, and physics..
They call it faith, religion, and mystic..

I say, what's the difference..:datass:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14251897 - 04/07/11 07:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's try something simple if you can handle it WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION.

Babies are born atheists: true or false? Two choices only.




false


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14252026 - 04/07/11 08:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You are wrong.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14252051 - 04/07/11 08:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No don't be ridiculous, you might ascribe the label atheist to the baby and based on your definition you'd be correct, if it was a question on a test.  But the baby doesn't consider itself an atheist.  It's like naming somebody.  When you came out of the womb your parents called you Poid.  Sure, to them that is now true, but you, in your own existence, aren't Poid at all you're just a new baby being. 

Basically, what I'm saying is a newborn baby in no way has "atheist consciousness" and anybody who self identifies as an atheist does, hence the distinction.  Please tell me you follow this.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14252073 - 04/07/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
No don't be ridiculous, you might ascribe the label atheist to the baby and based on your definition you'd be correct...


I know.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14252631 - 04/07/11 11:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well there's more to identity than an exteriorly imposed definition.  Believe me, I understand the atheist position that anybody and everybody who doesn't actively believe in God is by definition a-theist.  That's sort of true but really it's just bullshit, because being an atheist is something you actively identify as, and lots of people simply don't.  They're not agnostic or anything, those labels are stupid and reductionist.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14252772 - 04/07/11 12:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
That's sort of true but really it's just bullshit...


It's not "sort of true", and it's not bullshit.


Quote:

guruu said:
...because being an atheist is something you actively identify as...


Sure, it can be.


Quote:

guruu said:
They're not agnostic or anything, those labels are stupid and reductionist.


They're not stupid; what's stupid is to think that it's "sort of true"/bullshit that babies are born atheist. What do you mean by it being reductionist? Why would that even be a bad thing IYO?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14252868 - 04/07/11 12:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, from your position, I will concede that babies are born atheists.  But I think that's a very misleading way to state it because as far as the baby is concerned, that label doesn't apply at all, and self-identifying as an atheist is very different from just being one by virtue of your lack of belief.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14252921 - 04/07/11 12:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
But I think that's a very misleading way to state it because as far as the baby is concerned, that label doesn't apply at all...


That label applies to all things that lack a belief in God.


Quote:

guruu said:
...and self-identifying as an atheist is very different from just being one by virtue of your lack of belief.


I know there's a difference; babies are atheist regardless of whether or not they self-identify as being atheist. :baby:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14252944 - 04/07/11 12:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So, when babies die, do they go to hell because they don't believe in god? :eek:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14253408 - 04/07/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Not if they've been baptized. :pope:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14256422 - 04/07/11 11:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

guruu said:
But I think that's a very misleading way to state it because as far as the baby is concerned, that label doesn't apply at all...


That label applies to all things that lack a belief in God.


Quote:

guruu said:
...and self-identifying as an atheist is very different from just being one by virtue of your lack of belief.


I know there's a difference; babies are atheist regardless of whether or not they self-identify as being atheist. :baby:




i see we've hit the wall. very well then.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14256680 - 04/08/11 12:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, from your position, I will concede that babies are born atheists.  But I think that's a very misleading way to state it because as far as the baby is concerned, that label doesn't apply at all, and self-identifying as an atheist is very different from just being one by virtue of your lack of belief.




If there were no religious nutters, no one would be labled an atheist. Is there a word for non-unicorn believers? I don't think so, but if 80% of the population did believe, then there would be.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14257722 - 04/08/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

so atheism is, in a way, inherently reactionary


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14258396 - 04/08/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14259186 - 04/08/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you meditate and practice awareness for years, you too can misunderstand and misinterpret very clear statements.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14259619 - 04/08/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
If you meditate and practice awareness for years, you too can misunderstand and misinterpret very clear statements.




There are clear statements? The word, "interpret" --

1. Explain the meaning of (information, words, or actions): "interpret the evidence".
2. Translate orally the words of another person speaking a different language.


Translation means information loss, the same way one translates pictorial image into words: the ordinance of detail gets messed up.

Explanation is a derivate of ones own mind and beliefs.

So what really means "uninterpret"?

I say one mentally "sober" (yes I used that expression to your favour here) person can be as much unaware than any other mentally "sober" person who meditates or not.

I believe you mean here that "correct interpretation" means applying to mainstream interpretation. But interpretation is never accurate.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14260339 - 04/08/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
so atheism is, in a way, inherently reactionary



How is the default belief (or lack thereof) that every single human is born with before being indoctrinated by family/society "reactionary"? :confused:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14260361 - 04/08/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There ya go again - asking a logical question to which you will not receive an answer. :rolleyes:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14260922 - 04/08/11 10:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

guruu said:
so atheism is, in a way, inherently reactionary



How is the default belief (or lack thereof) that every single human is born with before being indoctrinated by family/society "reactionary"? :confused:




cause that's bullshit! you aren't born an atheist! Your consciousness has no descriptive factors upon birth.  Later, you might start to think of yourself as an atheist.  Then, you have "atheist-consciousness," basically you have adopted the term atheist and kept it as a fixture of consciousness.  A baby isn't like that at all, even if from an exterior perspective they are clearly not theistic in belief.  But, all the same atheism is a belief, by virtue of the fact that we're even talking about it.  And the reason it's reactionary is cuz of how important God is to so many people, and therefor how important it is for some people to strongly adhere to the "atheist" designation.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261084 - 04/08/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:huxleyfacepalm:

Quote:

Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

So, are babies born believing that deities exist?

There are only two options: yes or no. If yes, they are theists. If no, they are atheists.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14261134 - 04/08/11 11:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i'm trying to lead you to a different perspective, where you actually see atheism for what it truly is: a mental label.  Don't just keep falling back on the definition and trying to get me into a semantics war, which you will inevitably win (atheists are pretty good at winning semantics wars).  Really think, is the baby an atheist in any true sense, or is that just a label you are putting onto it? Basically, is atheism observed? By what is it observed? A baby has the thing that is observing (it is the thing that is observing). It doesn't have atheism, from its own perspective, cause its a baby and hasn't thought about that stuff yet.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261148 - 04/08/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, but if "atheism" is just a mental label, then so is language in general; this entire discussion is completely invalidated. To say that the baby is "not an atheist" is just as much of a label that you are projecting on to it as saying that it is an atheist. It's just another value judgment in the opposite direction.

If you admit that language (and thus the terms of this discussion) have any validity, then babies are atheists. if you say that language is not valid because it consists of labels that don't actually define experience, this discussion, along with your point, is negated.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14261171 - 04/08/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, if you wanna play the "language is invalid" card then i won't disagree with that because i agree that speech can never totally represent reality.  However, I think my words are pointing more towards reality than yours are if you are gonna say a baby is an atheist.  I think that's misleading.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261252 - 04/08/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No, I'm saying that you're trying to play the "language is invalid" card by claiming that the word "atheism" doesn't truly represent babies' viewpoint.

I'm arguing that if any word describes their viewpoint it's atheism, and if no word describes their viewpoint then this entire argument doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is even more pointless than it was before.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14261256 - 04/08/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It's clear that people just have different definitions of atheism and that is the whole root of the argument.

Quote:

Implicit vs. explicit
Main article: Implicit and explicit atheism
Definitions of atheism also vary in the degree of consideration a person must put to the idea of gods to be considered an atheist. Atheism has sometimes been defined to include the simple absence of belief that any deities exist. This broad definition would include newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas. As far back as 1772, Baron d'Holbach said that "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."[37] Similarly, George H. Smith (1979) suggested that: "The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist."[38] Smith coined the term implicit atheism to refer to "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it" and explicit atheism to refer to the more common definition of conscious disbelief. Ernest Nagel contradicts Smith's definition of atheism as merely "absence of theism", acknowledging only explicit atheism as true "atheism".[39]




Wiki

I think this is a pretty good summary or the arguments, and I doubt anyone is going to change their mind about which definition is "right".


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14262777 - 04/09/11 11:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
I'm arguing that if any word describes their viewpoint it's atheism, and if no word describes their viewpoint then this entire argument doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is even more pointless than it was before.




I'd go with the "no word describes their viewpoint" and say that this discussion is in fact pointless :tongue2: except just for funzies.  Like everything :wink:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14281743 - 04/13/11 12:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Babies are a poor example for either argument because a baby/newborn (for all extensive purposes) has no way of identifying the self. Ergo, baby does not identify with anything.

I like the reactionary argument and I also like the argument that atheism wouldn't have a name if there weren't a broad population that believed otherwise.

But Hume had a good point that there is no empirical way of proving "the self". Therefore, you can run one way or the other with it, AND YOU DO! One will say that it requires faith to believe in the self and the other will call bullshit. Either way we end up at a pragmatic coinflip...

Both sides try their best to appear as logical arguments but both are ENTIRELY emotional. :shrug:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14281980 - 04/13/11 02:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

babies are born non racists as well. Do non racists consider themselves non racists as a reaction to racists or just normal people?

There are atheists who don't believe in a god and there are ones that think religion is evil mind control ruining the world(like me) but really to not believe in a god and call it a religion is like calling non racist people non racists as a racist group I guess.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14282144 - 04/13/11 03:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
Babies are a poor example for either argument because a baby/newborn (for all extensive purposes) has no way of identifying the self. Ergo, baby does not identify with anything.


The baby doesn't have to identify as anything to qualify as being atheist. :baby:


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
Both sides try their best to appear as logical arguments but both are ENTIRELY emotional. :shrug:


No. One side is based on a lot of evidence. The other side is based on complete horseshit. :pope::holyshit:


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14282830 - 04/13/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

k... from YOUR subjective point of view of the term atheist. YES, the baby is born in such a way..

But as for the second part.. all of the "evidence" you have is based on empirical data. That's what scientific observation is.

SO, is it fair to say that science has any room to speak in matters of faith when:
1.it cannot identify the self
2.its parameters are limited to OUR shallow understanding of existence

Just because you say something is truth and run with it for a long period of time, does not make it so.. That's why science only claims that there is a high likelihood of such events and there are VERY FEW laws. Yes, scientifically a theory can be almost certain, but nothing is 100% proven as FACT, not even a law.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14282836 - 04/13/11 09:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

that's what i'm sayin...the baby doesn't identify as anything...that's why its a good example


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14282970 - 04/13/11 09:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
k... from YOUR subjective point of view of the term atheist. YES, the baby is born in such a way..


That's not merely my subjective point of view, the term 'atheist' actually denotes the lack of a belief in God.


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
But as for the second part.. all of the "evidence" you have is based on empirical data. That's what scientific observation is.


Yeah, and?


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
SO, is it fair to say that science has any room to speak in matters of faith when:


Why should matters of faith be logically scrutinized by science differently than anything else? That would be selective reasoning.


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
1.it cannot identify the self


It has; it's in the brain somewhere.


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
2.its parameters are limited to OUR shallow understanding of existence


What's so shallow about our understanding of existence? Do you think your ability to make that post on an internet forum came from a shallow understanding of computer science? :flowstone:


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
Just because you say something is truth and run with it for a long period of time, does not make it so..


True, what's your point?


Quote:

Dutchbrewed said:
That's why science only claims that there is a high likelihood of such events and there are VERY FEW laws. Yes, scientifically a theory can be almost certain, but nothing is 100% proven as FACT, not even a law.


True, what's your point?


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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14283080 - 04/13/11 10:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i seriously don't know how anybody has the patience to argue with you once you get all hyper quote status


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14283099 - 04/13/11 10:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, people must hate having their claims attacked in a debate forum. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14283200 - 04/13/11 10:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

sentence by sentence...that's rough. that's not how people debate in real life.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14283209 - 04/13/11 10:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I know, it's better. :smirk:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14283706 - 04/13/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well I think you should have approached my post as a whole... then you would have seen my point.

I'm not siding with either argument. Because the whole thing is subjective. IE "Atheism is a religion. Why do people think this?"

Just like, I eat an apple and call it sour. You'd probably say I was wrong and it was sweet..

"Something is way to spicy... NO you're a pussy it's mild at best"

Generalized truth is nearly impossible to come by.. but that's just my SUBJECTIVE belief. Truth is only confirmed as much as one BELIEVES.

Leave the babies out of it.. they don't even have basic motor functions..


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru] * 1
    #14284508 - 04/13/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

guruu said:
sentence by sentence...that's rough. that's not how people debate in real life.




And guess what, people who are wrong can easily win debates in real life.

All it takes is a louder voice, or talking faster than the other person to make it look like you're right. It's also much easier for people to quickly disregard valid points and bring up another point, sidestepping their opponents valid point completely.

You can't use bullshit arguing techniques on the internet however, and every piece can be analyzed.

The only people who have to worry about this are people who make bullshit points. :lol:

So yes, it is a much better method of having a debate than in real life.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14286077 - 04/13/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"And guess what, people who are wrong can easily win debates in real life."

They can on the internet too. It doesn't matter if they can be analyzed if no one can detect the faults.

"All it takes is a louder voice, or talking faster than the other person to make it look like you're right. It's also much easier for people to quickly disregard valid points and bring up another point, sidestepping their opponents valid point completely."

Which is ironically what you've done here. He/she made a point about the debate not being like in "real life" and you've conveniently skirted the observation and combated it with an assertion that it is different, and it is better. You didn't even ask what he/she could have possibly meant by "real life" since this right here is real life, as are all online debates.

"You can't use bullshit arguing techniques on the internet however, and every piece can be analyzed."

Can't? Then how did you just do this? We certainly can use them, as you show, but they won't last long, as I am showing now.

"So yes, it is a much better method of having a debate than in real life. "

Better? Why? This is your opinion, is it not? Its always easier arguing with the wind (to an audience who is sympathetic), whether its face to face or on a screen.


Edited by xFrockx (04/13/11 07:32 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
    #14286400 - 04/13/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"And guess what, people who are wrong can easily win debates in real life."

They can on the internet too.




I didn't say that they couldn't be.
Quote:


It doesn't matter if they can be analyzed if no one can detect the faults.




Yeah, well that's their own fault though, isn't it?

Quote:


Quote:


"All it takes is a louder voice, or talking faster than the other person to make it look like you're right. It's also much easier for people to quickly disregard valid points and bring up another point, sidestepping their opponents valid point completely."





Which is ironically what you've done here. He/she made a point about the debate not being like in "real life" and you've conveniently skirted the observation and combated it with an assertion that it is different, and it is better. You didn't even ask what he/she could have possibly meant by "real life" since this right here is real life, as are all online debates.




Why would it matter by what he meant by it? All I saying was why I think it is better to debate online than in person.

Also, it seemed to me that he meant that in real life, you cannot analyze everything someone said sentence by sentence while debating in person... which was what him and Poid were talking about. I still think it was a valid interpretation.

Quote:


"You can't use bullshit arguing techniques on the internet however, and every piece can be analyzed."

Can't? Then how did you just do this? We certainly can use them, as you show, but they won't last long, as I am showing now.




Well obviously I meant they can do it but people can catch them as every piece of their sentences can be analyzed.

Did you honestly think I meant there was some magical force preventing them from doing it?

Quote:


"So yes, it is a much better method of having a debate than in real life. "

Better? Why? This is your opinion, is it not? Its always easier arguing with the wind (to an audience who is sympathetic), whether its face to face or on a screen.





As far as I could tell, we were comparing this to just a couple of people talking about a topic.

Not some kind of professional debate where points are actually examined and rebutted. :shrug:

I told you why I think it's better. People can spend as much time as they want researching something, or preparing a response when debating on the internet than when talking to someone.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14286595 - 04/13/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:snoop:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: andrewss]
    #14286644 - 04/13/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Oh jeeze.

Atheism isn't an "ism" at all, in any way, shape, or form. It is only the lack of a particular "ism".

A baby? Yeah. They lack theism. They don't have any "ism" at all.

A baby IS an atheist, BECAUSE it doesn't hold a belief either way. It does not hold a belief in a god, therefore, it is not a theist, but an atheist.

People who HOLD A BELIEF in the lack of a god, and then call that atheism, are wrong. They are atheist insofar as they lack a belief in a god, but actually HOLDING a belief of NO GOD, is something completely different. That is NOT atheism.


Edited by Unison (04/13/11 09:03 PM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14286676 - 04/13/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Everyone, everywhere, is always either theist or atheist, whether they define themselves that way, or not.

Either you hold belief in god(s), or you do not. If you "do not know", then you are an atheist.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14286678 - 04/13/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the length of this thread is great proof that there are no beliefs involved :yesnod:


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14286698 - 04/13/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
the length of this thread is great proof that there are no beliefs involved :yesnod:



That has nothing to do with anything.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14286721 - 04/13/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

great! for a second there I was thinking people were taking their non-beliefs far too seriously :lol:


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Re: [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14287252 - 04/13/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I didn't say that they couldn't be."

I never said you did.

"Yeah, well that's their own fault though, isn't it?"

Fault? What is fault?

"Why would it matter by what he meant by it? All I saying was why I think it is better to debate online than in person."

I generally tend to listen to people I argue with, makes things more interesting.

"Also, it seemed to me that he meant that in real life, you cannot analyze everything someone said sentence by sentence while debating in person... which was what him and Poid were talking about. I still think it was a valid interpretation."

You can remember or record everything someone says in a face to face conversation. Again, what do you mean by "real life"? That just doesn't make any sense. Is this fake life, wtf?

"Well obviously I meant they can do it but people can catch them as every piece of their sentences can be analyzed."

Yeah, so can we when we speak. You just gotta have balls.

"Did you honestly think I meant there was some magical force preventing them from doing it?"

Yeah that is exactly it. Thanks for being empathetic. I was more pointing out your sloppy wording.

"As far as I could tell, we were comparing this to just a couple of people talking about a topic."

Not some kind of professional debate where points are actually examined and rebutted. :shrug:"

We can't consider or rebut points in a conversation? What world are you living in? I do it all the time. If you feel awkward doing it, that is your thing.

"I told you why I think it's better. People can spend as much time as they want researching something, or preparing a response when debating on the internet than when talking to someone."

And they can face-to-face too.




Still like debating like this?


Edited by xFrockx (04/13/11 10:42 PM)


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14287322 - 04/13/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Unison said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
the length of this thread is great proof that there are no beliefs involved :yesnod:



That has nothing to do with anything.




you disappoint me, inverted pentagram dude


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14287591 - 04/13/11 11:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"I didn't say that they couldn't be."

I never said you did.




Then what did you mean by it? Why state it at all if it has nothing to do with what I am saying?

Quote:


"Why would it matter by what he meant by it? All I saying was why I think it is better to debate online than in person."

I generally tend to listen to people I argue with, makes things more interesting.




Oh, so you can always memorize exact sentences and points while in a casual discussion? Sure, for simple topics you can, but what if you're debating with someone about an advanced math or physics concept? You need to have the information in front of you and you need time to fully consider it.

Quote:


"Also, it seemed to me that he meant that in real life, you cannot analyze everything someone said sentence by sentence while debating in person... which was what him and Poid were talking about. I still think it was a valid interpretation."

You can remember or record everything someone says in a face to face conversation.




As I said before, we aren't talking about actual debates where exact phrases are recorded. When you're discussing something with a friend, do you literally type down everything they say and spend an afternoon contemplating their point in front of them?

Quote:

Again, what do you mean by "real life"? That just doesn't make any sense. Is this fake life, wtf?




As I said before, I'm talking about face to face discussion about a topic. You're trying to sidetrack what we're talking about.

Quote:


"Well obviously I meant they can do it but people can catch them as every piece of their sentences can be analyzed."

Yeah, so can we when we speak. You just gotta have balls.




It has nothing to do with balls. It has to do with having enough time to properly analyze their points and formulate your response.
Quote:


"As far as I could tell, we were comparing this to just a couple of people talking about a topic."

Not some kind of professional debate where points are actually examined and rebutted. :shrug:"

We can't consider or rebut points in a conversation? What world are you living in? I do it all the time. If you feel awkward doing it, that is your thing.





It has nothing to do with awkwardness. It has to do with properly contemplating the argument presented and formulating a response. If you're having a face to face conversation with a friend, if you don't have a rebuttal within a few seconds of them finishing their point, they could conclude that they're right about that point.

Quote:


"I told you why I think it's better. People can spend as much time as they want researching something, or preparing a response when debating on the internet than when talking to someone."

And they can face-to-face too.




Really? So you've had debates where you've spent hours thinking, researching and formulating your response in front of someone?


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14287929 - 04/14/11 01:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

at least face to face you can feel somebody's presence and that is a totally fair way of driving your point home.  On the internet you can get away much more with sounding so refined when really you're just another immature dude with a computer.


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14287945 - 04/14/11 01:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The person making the argument has nothing to do with the validity of the argument itself.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14287975 - 04/14/11 01:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, but a valid argument is pretty insubstantial without a person to say it's valid :lol:


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kickle]
    #14287991 - 04/14/11 01:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If a tree falls in the woods with nobody to hear it does it make a sound? I think it does! :wink:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14287997 - 04/14/11 01:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah but if no one is around to say that is a point of some sort...?


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OfflineShroomerette
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kickle]
    #14288036 - 04/14/11 01:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I would say that that doesn't affect the substantiality of the argument but it does make it pretty pointless :lol:


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Re: [Re: Shroomerette]
    #14288133 - 04/14/11 01:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I definitely have to concede that insubstantial was not the right choice of word :blush:

edit: thought garbage...


Edited by Kickle (04/14/11 01:56 AM)


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kickle]
    #14288170 - 04/14/11 01:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

meh..

if we're going to generalize an atheist as everything else. Then I propose there is simply English then everything else.. OR America, then everywhere else.

There is a clear distinction between someone who claims/believes/testifies there is no god and a newborn who's life simply consists of bodily processes. Not seeing a distinction between the two is pretty dumb.

Is the true motive of this entire argument to prove the validity of atheism?? of Christianity?? I think so..

but for the sake of drawing party lines I really can't see how it is logical to claim all the babies and every other species of life. Trying to pin the beliefs of these things is like proving the existence of god. Just as impossible.

Why is atheism so much more supported?? oh wait it isn't.. and that's not saying anything else is. Just stop having such a goddamn ego about it and eat more fungus.

that is, after all, something we can agree on.. maybe


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14288544 - 04/14/11 06:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Almost all (or all) religions claim the existence of one or more, gods, entities, deities, or some higher force, so in what way can the denial of this existing be an alternative god supporting system?

Atheists are not trying to sell you anything, they just request an evidence for that belief otherwise it has no basis.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: pouihi] * 1
    #14288627 - 04/14/11 06:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineUnison
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14288759 - 04/14/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Atheism is, by definition, "everything else". It is this way, literally, because of the "a" prefix.  The "a" prefix literally means "not", or "without". An atheism is one who is not, or is without, theism.

Despite pop-culture use, atheism is, again, by definition, "everything else" other than theism. Everything that does not qualify as theism, qualifies as atheism. A baby does in fact classify as an atheist, because he or she is without theism, despite his or her lack of knowledge of it.

What you are thinking of, is an "antitheist". This is someone who holds an actual "ism" which is the polar opposite of the theist.

Quote:

guruu said:
Quote:

Unison said:
That has nothing to do with anything.




you disappoint me, inverted pentagram dude



Say something useful.


Edited by Unison (04/14/11 07:56 AM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14288941 - 04/14/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

yeah yeah, i know jesus i've read so much about atheism and heard so many times why by definition a baby or whatever is an atheist.  there is a more transcendental perspective to take on this argument, where you look at what atheism really is, as a mental construct.  Anybody that calls them self an atheist fits this bill, anybody that doesn't does not, they don't have atheist consciousness, sorry if you can't escape the maze of definitions


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14288956 - 04/14/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

But by saying "they're not atheists," you are just as much a part of the web of definitions. Opposites are mental constructs too. The truly "transcendental" perspective on this debate would be to not enter it.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: NetDiver]
    #14289015 - 04/14/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ah. You're not talking about the literal atheist, but what atheism is considered depending on who says it. If that is the case, then this whole topic is entirely useless. The answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Nothing is anything specific, and thoughts only describe reality as well as you need them to.

Is the mental construct you are referring to a religion? That all depends on who says the word, if you refuse to be literal about it.


Edited by Unison (04/14/11 09:28 AM)


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14289070 - 04/14/11 09:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Here's the most general answer I can give you:
Some atheists are dogmatic about their antitheism.

What I'm saying, guruu (not just guruu, sorry to pick on you), is it all depends on what game you want to play. We can be completely literal, or we can play on what ever point of the continuum between "thoughts describe reality" and "reality transcends thought" you find convenient. You want to play the role of the transcendental person, while still keeping it literal enough to have an argument and be correct about it.

You picked a point in that continuum that is convenient for you. At least have the integrity to see that is what you have done.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14290125 - 04/14/11 01:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

okay true and i've admitted that several times throughout this thread.  I'm just holding my position because i think it's highly misleading to spread the definition of atheism to everyone not believing in God because it gives atheism this overarching validity that it doesn't really deserve, and implies that all the atheists championing this position don't hold a belief, which they clearly do.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: g00ru]
    #14290294 - 04/14/11 02:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I guess atheism is a religion when the participants act as religious group: make meetings, do missionaries, try to convince everybody.

What about those who just don't think about religion at all? Are they still atheists, although they have not labeled themselves as atheists, they are just give-no-shit-ists?


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
    #14291985 - 04/14/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I find it far easier to not get worried about religion as a label. I don't use it. lol I have essentially disposed of religion in my mind. So I see it all in terms of belief systems. Different belief systems.

Religion, then, doesn't factor in at all.

And besides, using such labels will keep you from the heart of the issue: it's the individual beliefs that are important and have reality. Nothing else actually, in this context.

Let us focus on each belief one at a time and not get totally ahead of ourselves. eh?

We don't need to label because we are exploring. We don't know. :smile:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: synapz]
    #14292573 - 04/14/11 08:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I get what you're saying, guruu. You're talking about someone who proudly states "I am an Atheist" with a capital A. You're not talking about atheist, but the mental construct they have developed around the word. It's hard to say it's a religion, as synapz said, it comes down to belief system. That's the core of religion. So yes, that capital Atheism does qualify.

Understand why I get defensive about this. I do not care about the semantics of a word, but to say (A)theism is not "everything else" is to butcher the English language.


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OfflineDutchbrewed
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14293847 - 04/15/11 01:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Understand why I get defensive about this. I do not care about the semantics of a word, but to say (A)theism is not "everything else" is to butcher the English language.




not butchering english... it's just irony.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Unison]
    #14293872 - 04/15/11 01:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So yes, that capital Atheism does qualify.





Um, no it doesn't. There are no meetings, no robes, no leader, incense, hymns, rituals, secret handshakes, study meetings, organ music, fake charities, overseas missions nor the fondling of under-aged boys.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14293915 - 04/15/11 01:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

ahhhh.. so that's a religion.. thanks for bastar- I mean clarifying:facepalm:


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
    #14293941 - 04/15/11 02:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No matter how you phrase it, an individual belief or non belief does not constitute a religion.


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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14294466 - 04/15/11 08:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
No matter how you phrase it, an individual belief or non belief does not constitute a religion.



It qualifies as a belief system, depending on the person's approach. Not as a religion.

It's not actually the atheism that qualifies a belief system (atheism is everything but a particular belief), but there can be belief systems that are centered around atheism.

That's all this discussion is about. It has been pretty well summed up.


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Re: [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14294643 - 04/15/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Unless we "gasp" define religion that way.


THIS ENTIRE THREAD IS A PISSING CONTEST BASED ON OUR OPINIONS OF THE BEST SEMANTIC FRAMEWORK FOR USING THESE WORDS WHICH, WITHOUT A FRAMEWORK, WOULD HAVE NO MEANING AT ALL. THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN A SANDCASTLE THAT AWAITS THE TIDE OF TRUTH TO CARRY THESE UNFOUNDABLE AND TRANSIENT ARGUMENTS AWAY. PLEASE, EVERYEONE, PUT AWAY THE VARIOUS BUCKETS YOU ARE USING TO FORM AND MOLD THE STRUCTURE OF THIS SANDCASTLE. UNLESS YOU ARE DOING IT STRICTLY FOR YOUR OWN ENJOYMENT, IN WHICH CASE, BUILD ON. JUST DO NOT THINK THAT THE CASTLE WILL LAST FOREVER UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE DISAPPOINTED LATER.

THANKS. THAT IS ALL.


Edited by xFrockx (04/15/11 09:09 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14295141 - 04/15/11 11:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If possible, this thread was even more pointless than the last 38 such threads.


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Re: [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14295244 - 04/15/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This thread is like a vine covered with thorns (points), and without any berries at all.


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: [Re: xFrockx]
    #14295278 - 04/15/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Depends on what your definition of a berry is. :lol:


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