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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
#14232771 - 04/03/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "I already did this. "
Oh so they were true? Are you saying to me that the definitions you provided are not only definitions, they are also true?
True as in correct, yes; why are you having so much difficulty with this?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Dutchbrewed
Metaphysical



Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 289
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
#14232773 - 04/03/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "Some people have a true idea of what religion is, and still believe atheism to be a religion; both of those people are stupid."
Before we go any further, please provide the following:
1. A true idea of what religion is.
2. A true idea of what atheism is.
I already did this.
HA-HA! FAIL. Game over dude...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir




Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
#14232775 - 04/03/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you're telling me that the definitions I provided were incorrect? FAIL.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan  fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
#14232784 - 04/03/11 07:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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True as in correct? Oh you are so shy!
Why not true as just in true? Lets not complicate things. Are the definitions true or not? You already said they were, I just want confirmation before moving forward. You can be a very slippery fish.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:18 PM)
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Dutchbrewed
Metaphysical



Registered: 06/29/09
Posts: 289
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
#14232796 - 04/03/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: So you're telling me that the definitions I provided were incorrect? FAIL.
So I read two things from this... 1.You are super good at FAILing to see anyone else's criticism 2.You sit down when you pee
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BluePixieWaves



Registered: 12/19/09
Posts: 1,833
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Dutchbrewed]
#14232841 - 04/03/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lets say you lack a belief in ghosts. Does this make the lack of belief a religion? No. Atheism is just a lack of belief nothing more. Some may act religious and act in a cult like manner but this does not make atheism a religion.
Atheism does not define someone the same way your lack of belief in unicorns does not.
--------------------
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Shroomerette
Stranger

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Quote:
BluePixieWaves said: Lets say you lack a belief in ghosts. Does this make the lack of belief a religion? No. Atheism is just a lack of belief nothing more. Some may act religious and act in a cult like manner but this does not make atheism a religion.
Atheism does not define someone the same way your lack of belief in unicorns does not.

Poid's definitions are true and correct.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
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Kid_Orgo



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 5,514
Loc: Hale-Bopp
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Quote:
Poid said: Can you please answer my questions; I know this is hard, but I really want you to at least try.
I did, sarcastically.
Why do I believe the definitions you posted were cherry-picked? Because any single definition of a word cannot encompass the whole of its meanings. The one you picked and cling to is but one facet of what the word religion means.
Second question, no, I'm not going to google up ten more for you.
You still haven't addressed the fact that by your own incredibly broad definition of religion, the atheism practiced by some is one, aside from pointing to your own overly restrictive definition of what atheism is.
You ask any man on the street what atheism is, they'd say it's not believing in God.
Whether you take that to mean "the absence of a belief in God" or "belief in the absence of God" is something not well-differentiated. It's immaterial, because it definitely CAN mean the second, and clearly has been used in that sense in various discussions on this board.
I will agree to exactly the following:
"Given that religion is exactly as you defined it, then atheism exactly as you defined it is not a religion"
And that's it.
-------------------- He was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fights. No business, no hangout; no friends, nothing; just what you pick up and what you need.
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
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Looks like we're going to need at least one more definition then:
1. The true definition of truth.
Here's the wiki, Poid can't even use this one:
"Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with a particular fact or reality, or being in accord with the body of real things, real events or actualities.[1] It can also mean having fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal. In a common archaic usage it also meant constancy or sincerity in action or character.[1] The direct opposite of truth is "falsehood", which can correspondingly take logical, factual or ethical meanings.
However, language and words are essentially "tools" by which humans convey information to one another. As such, "truth" must have a beneficial use in order to be retained within language. Defining this potency and applicability can be looked upon as "criteria", and the method used to recognize a "truth" is termed a criterion of truth. Since there is no single accepted criterion, they can all be considered "theories".
Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars and philosophers. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute."
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Kid_Orgo]
#14232947 - 04/03/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i said that militant atheism functions like a religion in some respects, not that it is one. atheism lacks the structure of being classified as a religion, but it is a belief system in that it is witnessed, or evangelized, in a similar way as some organized religions.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
#14232956 - 04/03/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The depth of this thread will be talked about for millenia to come.
--------------------
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Shroomerette
Stranger

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
#14232968 - 04/03/11 07:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Looks like we're going to need at least one more definition then:
1. The true definition of truth.
Here's the wiki, Poid can't even use this one:
"Truth has a variety of meanings, such as the state of being in accord with a particular fact or reality, or being in accord with the body of real things, real events or actualities.[1] It can also mean having fidelity to an original or to a standard or ideal. In a common archaic usage it also meant constancy or sincerity in action or character.[1] The direct opposite of truth is "falsehood", which can correspondingly take logical, factual or ethical meanings.
However, language and words are essentially "tools" by which humans convey information to one another. As such, "truth" must have a beneficial use in order to be retained within language. Defining this potency and applicability can be looked upon as "criteria", and the method used to recognize a "truth" is termed a criterion of truth. Since there is no single accepted criterion, they can all be considered "theories".
Various theories and views of truth continue to be debated among scholars and philosophers. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective or objective, relative or absolute."
Yeah, that is a theoretical definition of truth .
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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truth is absolute. our perception of it is relative. imo.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
#14233013 - 04/03/11 08:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Imo, truth and reality are the same thing. The idea that language is true is a useful, but illusory way of asserting something with confidence. By considering truth and reality as the same thing, questions about what to think is true are greatly simplified.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:02 PM)
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Shroomerette
Stranger

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
#14233050 - 04/03/11 08:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The reality is that most atheists define themselves by the definition that Poid provided, they "lack belief in higher powers" basically.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
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So?
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:12 PM)
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Imo, truth and reality are the same thing. The idea that language is true is a useful, but illusory way of asserting something with confidence. By considering truth and reality as the same thing, questions about what to think is true are greatly simplified.
as i said above, truth is the totality of all that is. our experience of it just varies.
Quote:
Shroomerette said: The reality is that most atheists define themselves by the definition that Poid provided, they "lack belief in higher powers" basically.
i won't criticize anyone for believing what they do, but i don't exactly understand writing off metaphysics. reality is imbued with the intangible, from our minds, emotions, to our perfected mathematical and moral models. none of these things exist in physical reality and yet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who denies they exist. materialism just seems like cynicism for the sake of it imo.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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xFrockx


Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 19 hours
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: millzy]
#14233091 - 04/03/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"none of these things exist in physical reality and yet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who denies they exist. "
Right here boss. You found him.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:20 PM)
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: xFrockx]
#14233129 - 04/03/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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so where exactly do the ideas of perfect mathematical forms, moral perfection originate from? we can conceive of a perfect circle but yet nothing like it exists in nature, only in our mathematical models. the idea of moral perfection only exists in our mythology and is something to be striven for and never achieved. our consciousness exists but yet material science cannot seem to define or measure it.
disbelieve all you like though.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Shroomerette
Stranger

Registered: 10/12/10
Posts: 1,342
Loc:
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: "Atheism is a religion." [Re: Poid]
#14233135 - 04/03/11 08:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So all of the argument about whether Poids definitions are true or not is pointless, what matters is whether or not they accurately describe the things being discussed.
Quote:
Poid said: If we define religion as being a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values, then atheism is by no means a religion.
This is accurate of every religion I know about.
Quote:
Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.
Atheists do not attempt to create "powerful and long-lasting meaning". Atheists establish no symbols, and do not relate humanity to beliefs and values. Atheists generally believe that reality is how they perceive it, and don't believe in things that they can't see and have no evidence for. That is not a religion.
-------------------- Leaving the shroomery forever
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