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xFrockx


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After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety 3
#14227729 - 04/02/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Becker's philosophy on death anxiety is astoundingly simple, tenacious, and most of all, dangerously plausible. I say 'dangerously' because of the very real effects of what might come from believing in his theories on human nature.
Becker assumes a lot about human nature. One key assumption of his is that the default human emotion is fear. It is our defenses, he claims, that allows us to avoid this state beneath all other states.
It sounds extremely plausible for a number of reasons. First is that we all do die. Second is that fear is a part of all our lives at some point. No matter what you claim your current life-state to be, fear has been a part of your life at some point or another. Everyone who is alive knows what it feels like to be unsure of what will happen, and yet sure that the chance is there that what could happen will mean their demise. Another reason Becker seems so plausible is that we can see the effects of mitigating fear in people. "Charachter armor" is what Becker terms the methods of ego-defense we use to distinguish ourselves and to give us some small sense of familiarity in the world. This familiarity holds us over when it comes to the all-but-penetrating fear of losing everything.
But now it is important for me to note why Becker's theory is merely extremely plausible, and not true. Aside from all the assumptions about human nature Becker makes, which are themselves extremely plausible, there is his core assumption, that the fear of death is underneath all of our motivations, the "worm at the core" of ourselves.
But, even as he makes this assumption about human nature, he admits that this "worm at the core" is learned, a result of nurture rather than nature. In admitting this, it does not seem that Becker realized he has missed the key that he, and indeed, all of us, might need to re-lock the pandora's box of death anxiety, pure, baby-like, innocence.
Allow me to demonstrate what this means. Often we as adults might imagine that we can peel back our preconceptions, and realize that we don't really know anything. At this point, Becker assumes that we would then come in closest contact with our core, our death-anxiety. But there is a real problem with this: If we really know nothing, what is there to fear? Would we not have to know something in order to fear it? That something could be losing a loved one, the end of our future, or some emotional judgment about the worth of our lives, in any case, in order to fear, we must know.
So to anyone who has read this book and found themselves gripped by its argument, realize that the impact of the theory is not so much a result of what Becker points out, but what he forgets. That at core, there is nothing to fear. Death anxiety is the sad result of letting go of everything, but then doubling back and neglecting to realize that you haven't questioned away all your knowledge. If you had, there would be nothing to fear.
And that, my friends, is hopefully not too late to reach those of you who might end your lives due to this theory, gripped by the paralyzing forgetfulness of Becker. Good luck in doubting the rest of your knowledge, and returning to the ignorant bliss you once enjoyed as a child.
Edited by xFrockx (04/02/11 08:37 PM)
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14228177 - 04/02/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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26 views no replies.
TLDR:
Death anxiety can only exist among people that feel they know something. Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.
Edited by xFrockx (04/02/11 08:41 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14228263 - 04/02/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Um, Islander is not here.
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#14228294 - 04/02/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah that's pretty much what got me to read Becker, you mentioning he wasn't coming back. Did he finally run out of money?
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Cups
technically "here"


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14228700 - 04/02/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.
Terence McKenna- Quote:
It's easy to hope if you're stupid!
It cracks me up that read this right as Iceman went off into the sunset. I'm sure he'll be happy to know.
There are other people here who have read this book you know. I have, Kickle has...I think Poid has. I'm sure there are a few others...
I think it's interesting that you find his theory so compelling you use the phrase "extremely plausible" over and over again and yet still give a rebuttal. 
I hear what you are saying. I don't disagree that to beat death anxiety requires achieving a state far removed from the norm. But I can't agree that this state is that of an innocent child.
Even a 1 year old reaches for his mother as the tsunami sweeps him away. 
Plus, if you really lost all knowledge you would be helpless just like a kid. I just don't see anyway for that to be practical or achievable.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
Edited by Cups (04/02/11 10:38 PM)
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14228712 - 04/02/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.
Also wanted to add this was one of my biggest insights from this book. If you believe the theory, then the people who "succeed" in life the most are the ones who lie to themselves the best.
It's really an interesting thing to think about.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Cherk
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14228852 - 04/02/11 11:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I didn't know he wrote books....I just thought he played a doctor on TV
anyways I think paranoia is more present than fear
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14229852 - 04/03/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Excellent rebuttal  But why go with the ignorant to become happy ? At least we know we exist, even only for a short time, why not make the best out of what we know ? It might be that most people are dominated by their 'death anxiety' but in sight of the alternative, joy of existence, it makes no rational sense. If you're dominated by death anxiety, you will never have the joy of existing, because you always fear of loosing it instead the joy of prolonging it or the joy of finding new ones. On the other hand it can be well said that it's a mean to control the masses anyways, that's why it seems to be enforced in unripe societies by their unripe 'leaders'.
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Grapefruit
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14229984 - 04/03/11 05:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
xFrockx said: Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.
Also wanted to add this was one of my biggest insights from this book. If you believe the theory, then the people who "succeed" in life the most are the ones who lie to themselves the best.
It's really an interesting thing to think about.
As has been said quite a few times many people agree with the diagnosis but not his treatment.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14230032 - 04/03/11 06:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think its more to do with hand anxiety. people who are successful generally are the best at lying to themselves about the awkwardness of their hands. ppl who fail feel acute hand anxiety and generally occupy them with things like, smoking, gambling, fapping etc.

(note how happy they are to momentarily be freed from the nagging oppression of hand anxiety)
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit]
#14230098 - 04/03/11 07:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: As has been said quite a few times many people agree with the diagnosis but not his treatment.
What's your take Grapefruit?
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14230101 - 04/03/11 07:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know anything because I try to be honest. I do not even know what knowledge is, so how can I possess any of it?
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:39 AM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14230121 - 04/03/11 07:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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You can have 'relative' knowledge. For example like your relations to your environment and such
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14230125 - 04/03/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Is that knowledge? How do you know it is knowledge? How do you know that you know that its knowledge?
If you asked me what an apple was I could show you. When I ask you what knowledge is, what can you show me?
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:56 AM)
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14230138 - 04/03/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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how do you know what to show him when he asks for an apple?
lol coz thats exactly how you know what you know when someone asks
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (04/03/11 08:10 AM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230145 - 04/03/11 08:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I can show you that knowledge is (at least) relative, as it remains constant in some relative framework
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230193 - 04/03/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The aspect of death anxiety that is learned isn't exactly something that can be unlearned. It is a developmental process related to having the brain of a human. And there isn't any evidence to the contrary.
Anyone can try to forget that they are human and mortal, but it doesn't make it anything more than a defense.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle]
#14230220 - 04/03/11 08:42 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"The aspect of death anxiety that is learned isn't exactly something that can be unlearned."
This is an assumption. You may have evidence for this in yourself, but as far as making a blanket statement for all people, its just sophistry.
"It is a developmental process related to having the brain of a human. And there isn't any evidence to the contrary."
If you believe that fear is locked away beyond reason, you yourself have become unreasonable and will never be able to reason your way out of fear.
"Anyone can try to forget that they are human and mortal, but it doesn't make it anything more than a defense. "
Forget? Oh the assumption! You do what Becker does so often, the backward turning of letting go of beliefs, only to assume with great confidence in other symbolic judgments of this condition!
We are not human. We are not mortal. We are what we are, and these ideas are made by us. Their meaning is also our creation. To be mortal is to end, but what one makes of that is totally up to them. As with being human. We decide what we believe is human nature, often what we decide is merely a reflection of our own nature.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:47 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230230 - 04/03/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Doesn't bother me to be afraid. But it seems from your attempts to show otherwise that it does bother you. Which IMO is great evidence for the fear you hold of acknowledging reality.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle] 1
#14230242 - 04/03/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why is this about me now?
If you had an argument you should be able to persuade me without merely telling me I am repressing what you claim to be true.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:52 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230252 - 04/03/11 08:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Because you're the one who felt the need to make this post
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle] 1
#14230264 - 04/03/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So why not defend your bullshit instead of just throwing it on me?
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:57 AM)
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle]
#14230272 - 04/03/11 08:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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do animals have death anxiety?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230274 - 04/03/11 08:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's what I've been wondering about you since the first post, where you claimed this post was some sort of life preserver for others
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230276 - 04/03/11 08:58 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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According to Becker, no.
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle]
#14230280 - 04/03/11 08:59 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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No argument at all.
If you don't want to have one, leave me alone. If you do, please give me something other than judgment of my personality over the internet. I'm not here to smell your farts.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:00 AM)
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230290 - 04/03/11 09:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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thnx.
@kickle - do babies have it?
why do adults necessarily have it or are stuck with it?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230292 - 04/03/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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According to Becker, babies learn it around 2 years old.
Becker claims adults must have it basically with the argument "How else could one feel when realizing their life will end?"
I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about it personally.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:07 AM)
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230301 - 04/03/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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well it would seem possible not to learn it. or to learn that it was a false assumption (like god being a false assumption... no?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
Edited by quinn (04/03/11 09:08 AM)
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230312 - 04/03/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
How else could one feel when realizing their life will end?
there are some sane adult humans who adamantly believe there is no such thing as self (or me or I). in their case the above statement would be meaningless...
in which case death anxiety is not necessarily true for all humans... yeh?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230315 - 04/03/11 09:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said:
I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about it personally.
I think we all know how we're "supposed" to feel about it. How we really feel about it is something else entirely.
As evidence I present to you....the entire human civilization.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230318 - 04/03/11 09:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"well it would seem possible not to learn it. or to learn that it was a false assumption"
Well, thats kinda what I'm saying, although I wouldn't say the assumption is false. Its just based off of assumptions. They're all self supported, there is no reason or objectivity in fear.
"how exactly do they learn it? "
Through experiences that threaten them. Becker claims that the more trauma one experiences the more death anxiety one will have, basically because these experiences solidify fear for most people.
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230327 - 04/03/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
Quote:
How else could one feel when realizing their life will end?
there are some sane adult humans who adamantly believe there is no such thing as self (or me or I). in their case the above statement would be meaningless...
in which case death anxiety is not necessarily true for all humans... yeh?
Agreed. But IMO/IME there are so few of these people it's ridiculous.
It's one thing to understand there is intrinsically no-self. But actually maintaining that 24 hours a day...quite a thing.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cups]
#14230328 - 04/03/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"I think we all know how we're "supposed" to feel about it. "
Spare me. How are we supposed to feel then? Your answer better be the same as mine.
"As evidence I present to you....the entire human civilization. "
What about that provides your evidence? What about the suicide cults? they did not seem to hold the same ascriptions to death that others might.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:24 AM)
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cups]
#14230334 - 04/03/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Agreed. But IMO/IME there are so few of these people it's ridiculous."
Exceptions are exceptions. If death anxiety is true of all people, there would be no exceptions.
"But actually maintaining that 24 hours a day...quite a thing. "
If you don't use it, you lose it.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:18 AM)
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230349 - 04/03/11 09:25 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "I think we all know how we're "supposed" to feel about it. "
Spare me. I am not a slave to social norms about how I should feel.
Never said you were. But even you prove this...this whole thread is based on you saying we're not "supposed" to be scared because we don't know anything. But I bet somewhere you're scared just like me.
Quote:
"As evidence I present to you....the entire human civilization. "
Quote:
xFrockx said:What about that provides your evidence?
I thought you read the book. 
Quote:
xFrockx said:What about the suicide cults? they did not seem to hold the same ascriptions to death that others might.
Kickle will tell you that suicide is seen as a way to escape death anxiety. I agree...find meaning in taking the randomness out of death. Dying on your terms and your timetable is a nice way to kick death in the nuts.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14230355 - 04/03/11 09:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: No argument at all.
If you don't want to have one, leave me alone. If you do, please give me something other than judgment of my personality over the internet. I'm not here to smell your farts.
What evidence could be presented to someone who believes there is no evidence of any knowledge at all? All I'm saying is if you want evidence that works with such a mind set, you need to start looking on your end. And I am by no means convinced you've done that, because your claims are pretty out there.
Becker already presented the intellectual evidence, you can provide the emotional
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cups] 1
#14230356 - 04/03/11 09:29 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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and point being if these ppl exist then death anxiety does not necessarily exist for all people and is not necessarily something you are stuck with.
the insidious aspect of the argument is that you can always say the people claim *insert belief* in order to avoid death anxiety.
this is a poor argument imo. you could do it for anything. 'hand anxiety' everything you have ever done points back to your anxiety about the need to do something with your hands.
i dont think everything revolves around death anxiety... there is no need to privilege it especially above any other reason that humans do things in any particular case.
maybe this thread involved: 1 part hand anxiety, 2 parts death anxiety, 1 part social anxiety, 3 parts drug related anxiety etc.
maybe getting lost when listening to music has no parts death anxiety... who is anyone to say?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: quinn]
#14230446 - 04/03/11 09:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said: and point being if these ppl exist then death anxiety does not necessarily exist for all people and is not necessarily something you are stuck with.
I don't dispute this...but the number of "enlightened" masters is minuscule. Certain brain conditions also kick out fear so I suppose getting a tumor in the right place could be do the trick. Or a lobotomy.
Quote:
quinn said: maybe getting lost when listening to music has no parts death anxiety... who is anyone to say? 
Hmmm, escaping reality for a moment through art....if only I was smart enough to find a way to relate that to death anxiety. 
Like you hand anxiety thing though...and I get what you're saying.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Cognitive_Shift
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cups]
#14230492 - 04/03/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Oh icelander???? Where is that guy with the snake avatar when ya need him?
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle]
#14230764 - 04/03/11 11:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am totally open to be shown that I am wrong, but it seems you are totally unwilling to have a discussion. All I have are questions, and most of the time people get tired of them and stop talking to me, but somehow place the blame on me for having questions about things they aren't used to having questions about. I purposely look for the ways to question any belief system I come into contact with. I'm not out here to believe, no, but if I came into contact with a belief system I could not doubt, I would be forced to accept it. That time has not yet come for me.
If it is true that death anxiety is the core motivation behind our actions, does that mean you are defending it due to your own death anxiety?
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 11:39 AM)
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cups]
#14230770 - 04/03/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"But I bet somewhere you're scared just like me. "
Why would I be scared? Honestly, there is not one thing that fear can do to help the situation.
Also, even among scared people fear of death is way overblown. Ask almost anyone over 80 if they fear death and many will calmly tell you they are perfectly ready for it, and they only thing they fear is extreme pain or suffering the process might bring.
Being tortured, now that's something I could scream about. Death? Its going to happen when its going to happen, just another part of history.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 11:54 AM)
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
#14231105 - 04/03/11 01:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Ask almost anyone over 80 if they fear death and many will calmly tell you they are perfectly ready for it, and they only thing they fear is extreme pain or suffering the process might bring.
Maybe. But they'll also tell you they lived a full and complete life...a meaningful life.
That's the point. It's not that death anxiety makes you quake and shake all day at the thought of dying...usually...it's that it forces you to do what you think will make your life complete and meaningful.
On the other hand I have a 94 year old customer who told me point blank last year she wasn't ready to die yet. She's got kids and grandkids and everything you'd expect but it's still not enough for her.
Quote:
Why would I be scared? Honestly, there is not one thing that fear can do to help the situation.
Quote:
Being tortured, now that's something I could scream about.
And...to ask your own question. What would being afraid do to help the situation?
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cups]
#14231145 - 04/03/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Maybe. But they'll also tell you they lived a full and complete life...a meaningful life. "
At what age does life become meaningful?
"And...to ask your own question. What would being afraid do to help the situation?"
Well, that is a good question, it would do nothing to help the situation, even of torture. I guess I don't even have to fear torture, although it would probably hurt a lot.
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Grapefruit
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14231243 - 04/03/11 01:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cups said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said: As has been said quite a few times many people agree with the diagnosis but not his treatment.
What's your take Grapefruit?
I agree with Becker on the manifestations of death anxiety and that it's a real phenomena. However, I'd take UG Krishnamurti's view that there is no death for the body.
The body doesn't even consider death at all IMO, it just sees the natural flow of impermenance as the reality. The body doesn't even consider itself "alive" any more than a tree is alive, it's just another machine, it's only concern being survival and reproduction for no other reason than that is what it's programmed to do. In this way the natural state is not even self aware.
If you are having a panic attack you can almost feel the thought structure is opposed to the body feeling (primal consciousness) if you're not too lost in thought. The mind is panicking because something has shown it has no real basis in reality as anything other than a survival tool rather than all the cultural idea it has about itself but this "body feeling" simply does not care. It's this friction/disalignment that is creating the anxiety. I don't really have any evidence for this, it's just the way it feels to me.
In the natural state, when an animal is confronted with a threat it would simply use adrenaline and fear as a survival mechanism but it would not be a concern so it's much more streamlined. If thought is aligned with the body's natural state and concerns then the cultural concerns and anxieties will not be there and there will be no way you can tell yourself anything about anything at all.
There is only the one thought, "How?" The one question that this organism is interested in is, "How to throw off the whole thraldom, the whole strangling influence of culture?" That question is the only question this organism has—not as a word, not as a thought—the whole human organism is that one question. I don't know whether I make myself clear. That is the one question, you see, which is throbbing, pulsating in every cell, in the very marrow of your bones, trying to free itself from this stranglehold. That is the one question, the one thought. That is the saviour. That question finds that it has no way of finding an answer, that it is impossible for that question to do anything, so it explodes. When it has no way to move, no space, the 'explosion' takes place. That 'explosion' is like a nuclear explosion. That breaks the continuity of thought.
~UG Krishnamurti
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (04/03/11 02:09 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit]
#14232506 - 04/03/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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If it is true that death anxiety is the core motivation behind our actions, does that mean you are defending it due to your own death anxiety?
Of course.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14232533 - 04/03/11 06:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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What about your experience of defending this theory indicates that it is your fear of dying which moves you to its defense, and not, say, an aversion to being wrong?
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 06:32 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14232632 - 04/03/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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On the surface, my experience is one of fatigue. To focus on death anxiety too long is very draining for me. My guess is that my defense is mostly to keep the emotions separated from the thoughts and this requires a lot of mental energy. And if I don't keep the emotions separated, I often find very dark emotions and simultaneously dark thoughts to be a result.
As for why I don't think it's an aversion to being wrong, I'd say that it's possible, but unlikely. When I explore that on the surface, it's welcomed. Mentally, I'd love to be wrong about the whole thing. There are several points over the years where my mind has tried to convince me of a variety of alternatives. They never contain the depth when explored like death anxiety does. They are typically a surface gloss of thought protecting harmful emotions and reveal their identity quickly.
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle] 1
#14232811 - 04/03/11 07:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't know man.
I think that the force that is involved with death anxiety is along the same lines as the force that makes us adverse to being wrong, but I don't think one or the other is "at core" because I don't believe there is a core. How can we fear death anyway? We don't even know what death is. Like Socrates once said, to fear death is to commit the shameful ignorance thinking one knows what one does not know.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:25 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14232881 - 04/03/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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How can we fear death anyway?
Find out. Put a gun to your head with serious intention of pulling the trigger. If there is no fear there, then go ahead and pull.
IMO it really has nothing to do with what we know. It's just a reaction, like gasping for air when underwater for too long. The body just wants to survive and will do its best in making a fuss to ensure it happens. Fear is a bodily response and thoughts are influenced by it.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14232944 - 04/03/11 07:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Other people have threatened me with guns with mixed results. I've been more scared being shot at with BB guns (10 yrs old) than I was being threatened with a shotgun (21). With the shotgun the reaction was like "Ah shit, its gonna end like this" It is what it is as far as I can tell. The reaction is like any other chemical reaction, reactants in, products out.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:47 PM)
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14232960 - 04/03/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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would u be happy to make the following distinction?
this:
Quote:
IMO it really has nothing to do with what we know. It's just a reaction, like gasping for air when underwater for too long. The body just wants to survive and will do its best in making a fuss to ensure it happens.
is not death anxiety but a natural bodily response just like any other animal (which as you know dont have death anxiety).
this:
Quote:
How else could one feel when realizing their life will end?
is the death anxiety Becker is talkin about. a conceptual death anxiety. it is different to the above and a human who feared for their survival in the bodily sense would not necessarily entertain death anxiety in the conceptual sense...
?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: quinn]
#14233024 - 04/03/11 08:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't see them as separate. My body influences my mind and my mind influences my body. So when I think about death, my body has a reaction to it. And when my body has a reaction to it, my mind has a reaction to my body.
Death anxiety is IMO a mental reaction bred from a physical reality. As I become mentally aware that I am dying, my body becomes anxious. As my mind realizes it can do nothing to prevent this, my body becomes even more anxious. And so lots and lots of defenses are created in order to ensure that my mind believes it can prevent it, or continue on beyond physical death, and this allows my body to relax. But all the while this defense has to be maintained and at any point cracks can appear, inspiring anxiety all over again.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233056 - 04/03/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"As my mind realizes it can do nothing to prevent this, my body becomes even more anxious."
This is not possible. The mind is what becomes anxious. The body does not think.
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233067 - 04/03/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The mind and body are connected far as I can tell. They aren't separate. Without my body, I doubt I'd be thinking at all. And without specific parts of the brain, I can bear witness to the changes in thought that occur.
Take out the amygdalla, and all this conversation about fear goes out the window. But you also have to stop someone from walking in front of a moving car when they want to get from point A to point B.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233072 - 04/03/11 08:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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interesting...
i see where u r coming from.
it seems that you treat the mind as a sort of constant structure (of beliefs?) that all your bodily impulses and so on are run through... this points to a kind of 'subconsciousness' that is always there regardless of how the conscious appears... right?
i sort of agree.
but on the other hand it could be viewed as not a constant underlying thing, but rather in consciousness is all there is and things fall in and out of consciousness. one moment you are looking for something to do to avoid thinking about death, the next you are listening to music and all death is completely forgotten.
its like if you could take a film of all the feelings and thoughts going through your consciousness as you are being chased by a tiger. it could be exactly the same kinds of thoughts that a chimpanzee would feel.
and if this were the case then you could make that kind of distinction about purely instinctual survival experience (without the presence of death anxiety) vs conceptual or regular death anxiety experience...
not saying i know which is right but they both seem like plausible ways of viewing the subject.
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233073 - 04/03/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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As far as I can tell there is no connection between mind and body because there is no separation. There is no "mind and body" only one thing that is both.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:15 PM)
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233106 - 04/03/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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How do you know this?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233114 - 04/03/11 08:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't.
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: quinn]
#14233144 - 04/03/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
interesting...
i see where u r coming from.
it seems that you treat the mind as a sort of constant structure (of beliefs?) that all your bodily impulses and so on are run through... this points to a kind of 'subconsciousness' that is always there regardless of how the conscious appears... right?
i sort of agree.
but on the other hand it could be viewed as not a constant underlying thing, but rather in consciousness is all there is and things fall in and out of consciousness. one moment you are looking for something to do to avoid thinking about death, the next you are listening to music and all death is completely forgotten.
There is always reprieve. But on the whole, life seems pretty much dictated by a fear of death. We eat and drink because the alternative is unbearable. Without that sustenance we will die. And so we work in order to afford our food and drink and keep ourselves alive. Always driven forward by that pressure of death.
And to forget that death is what is always prodding us, we often make meaning for ourselves. Through our careers, through our spiritual practices, through our social interactions, etc. There is a tendency to shape all of these things around some greater purpose or goal. One that doesn't seem to involve death as a prod. Happiness is a typical one. I am happy when I do x, or y, or z. But it seems to me that happiness is directly related to the pushes of death.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233147 - 04/03/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: I don't.
what makes you suspect it?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233251 - 04/03/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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that is probably true but imo dont give death more than it deserves. if you want to find it everywhere in life you will!
its like freuds whole marrying mother killing father gig. there is probably some truth to that but it doesnt mean it should be put on a pedestal above any other kind of understanding you could have. if you want to explain everything by one set of assumptions then nothing u find can stop u skewing the evidence in its favor.
i dont doubt death anxiety is profound and to some very large extent what you are saying is true. i mean i think i am gonna read this book it sounds like there is a lot of value to it.
but dont give it more credit than it is due. it is so easy to put on your death anxiety glasses, your feminist glasses, your god glasses, your marxist glasses, your hand anxiety glasses etc etc etc
and view everything in the world from that slightly skewed perspective. attributing more to the idea than is the case.
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: quinn]
#14233289 - 04/03/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah dude, you're right about that. Death anxiety can give some pretty dark colored glasses when you cruise the world with it as your perspective. And it by no means needs to be the perspective you keep. Although I do think that, like the Buddhists, meditating on death is a solid practice and worthwhile endeavor. Even if it
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle] 2
#14233324 - 04/03/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i agree. was thinkin about it the other day. if life is about having the fullest range of experience (and so not getting stuck in the smaller comfortable behavior loops) then looking into the darker sides, into death, can only give you a fuller perspective to draw from.
how horrible it would be to die without ever having the chance to experience the sorrow of what dying truly means to you.
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: quinn]
#14233336 - 04/03/11 09:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?
Edited by Brainstem (04/03/11 09:05 PM)
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233339 - 04/03/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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One assumption is less than two. Really, I wouldn't say there are things, plural, at all. I normally go with everything being one thing, merely because I cannot conclude that there are any separations that exist that would cordon off individual forces or objects.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:06 PM)
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233356 - 04/03/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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LOL Icelander leaves and everyone finally starts reading the book.
Let us know what you think of the book Quinn.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14233372 - 04/03/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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anyone got a link where I can download it ? I can't find it anywhere, just pdf analyzing it.
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
#14233393 - 04/03/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just buy it dude. Amazon has it for $9 brand new and it's worth the money.
http://www.amazon.com/Denial-Death-Ernest-Becker/dp/0684832402
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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quinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14233411 - 04/03/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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i think icelander sort of scared me off this stuff 
will do Cups have a lot of uni to get thru atm tho (which i am skillfully avoiding by procrastinating on this damn site!)
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233424 - 04/03/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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So you don't think a thing can exist at two points in time yet only grokked in one?
Example: I walk into a bar and notice a picture of Elvis that I didn't see a week ago. I ask the bartender if that picture has been up long, he says for as long as he has worked there, which is 3 years.
You would side with that picture of Elvis not existing prior to my mental awareness of it because of the potential separation that need be assumed? Is this pretty close to solipsism?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
#14233459 - 04/03/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said: Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?
What do you mean by death initiation? What did you have in mind?
I've heard that the Greek's had a sort of initiation practice as part of their religious "mysteries" wherein a reflective surface was at the bottom of a vase, or jar, or something. As the new initiate walked in, the master would tell them to look into the vessel and see their true selves. As the initiate looked in, the angle was such that what was reflected on the bottom was an image of old age positioned elsewhere in the room. So the initiate looks in to find their true self and what they find is themselves old and decrepit.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14233491 - 04/03/11 09:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cool
Every time Ice recommended it I could never find a pdf version, so I never read it, just whatever commentaries I could find about it.
My opinion on this subject is that I see death as an inevitability, and for all the energy wasted in fear or denial of death IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, so why build our whole world view around the impermanence of existence ? I must admit though, the question of what lies beyond death does occupy my thoughts a lot, but I see this as coming from a desire for knowledge, to know what isn't known. There are so many possibilities, but the one that may invoke our death anxiety above all is the possibility that what lies beyond death is non-existence. I think if we knew for certain that the mind survived death in some capacity, death anxiety wouldn't be such a prominent force.
-------------------- The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233524 - 04/03/11 09:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I can answer this much:
"So you don't think a thing can exist at two points in time?"
I don't believe that time, strictly speaking, exists. If we define time as merely the change of space, then I can understand that, but to say that there are two points in time would be to say that there are also two realities which exist independently of each other that a "thing" would exist in both. As I see it from the perspective of my own two eyes, the world is in a constant state of change, our sense of permanence or individuation of things is a cognitive ability we have, but not a reality beyond that. We want to say that an apple is a thing, but what separates the apple? Consider that just a few years prior the tree it came from was a seed. And soon after the apple is born from the tree, does it begin to ripen and rot, eventually perishing completely. But at what point did the flower become the bud, the bud become the apple, the apple become the dirt? We can all agree and talk about these things, certainly, but beyond that, there is a world that does not have separations. Even our categories are existent only in the world we sense, in sounds, sights, touches, tastes, feelings and smells. Strictly speaking, there is no such real thing as a category at all. What a category is is represented through the symbols we use "category" being one example, another being the sound of someone saying that word. When we say "apple" the precise brain state and subjective state that corresponds to the idea is different for everyone. Even the contents of this post will be taken differently by everyone who reads it. We can further clarify ourselves to seek clarity when needed, but there's never going to be an exact, one-to-one correspondence. And that's the rub.
"Is this pretty close to solipsism? "
No because solipsism assumes the existence of a self.
Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 09:38 PM)
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Kickle]
#14233537 - 04/03/11 09:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Brainstem said: Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?
What do you mean by death initiation? What did you have in mind?
I've heard that the Greek's had a sort of initiation practice as part of their religious "mysteries" wherein a reflective surface was at the bottom of a vase, or jar, or something. As the new initiate walked in, the master would tell them to look into the vessel and see their true selves. As the initiate looked in, the angle was such that what was reflected on the bottom was an image of old age positioned elsewhere in the room. So the initiate looks in to find themselves and what they find is themselves old and decrepit.
I've read of a few different rituals from around the world. One from Greece I think, which involves isolation underground and the ingestion of , hyoscyamine / scopolamine containing plants along with a mystery play, there was another from India I think, similar to the first but during the underground isolation meditation and fasting are employed. There is also the Iboga rituals of Gabon, which are apparently a death initiation.
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233550 - 04/03/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The nature of time and space in relation to consciousness is a fascinating area imo.
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
#14233579 - 04/03/11 09:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've never been there.
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233594 - 04/03/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14233602 - 04/03/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Brainstem]
#14233650 - 04/03/11 09:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, IME the only way to deal with fear is to face it head on. Have at it man, you'll be surprised how afraid you can be.
But I would only recommend doing that kind of thing if you are willing to take it all the way. If you go half way and get stuck you'll be there the rest of your life.
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
#14233667 - 04/03/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe I need to scare myself a little.
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bigmike7104
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Brainstem] 1
#14234140 - 04/03/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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the problem with the book is he relies on inaccurate science, relies a lot on Kierkegaard writings who was a 19th century philosopher and religious author, and reinterprets a lot of Sigmund Freud.
also i think he believes that because there's a physical response to get away from danger and do what we can to survive automatically means everyone psychologically fears death.
here's my response from a past thread showing some bold claims and scientific inaccuracies http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13999982/page/3/fpart/8/vc/1
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portrays the schizophrenic as incapable of conforming to normal cultural standards and is thus incapable of death denial.
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Freud's Oedipus complex is reinterpreted to reflect the existential project of avoiding the implications of being a "body," and thus being mortal. The boy is attracted to his mother in an effort to become his own father, thereby attempting to transcend his mortality through an imagined self-sufficiency.
http://www.deathreference.com/A-Bi/Becker-Ernest.html
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Frankly I don't know anyÂthing more cogent that needs to be said about this syndrome: it is a failure in humanization, which means a failure to confidently deny man's real situation on this planet. Schizophrenia is the limiting test case for the theory of character and reality that we have been exÂpounding here: the failure to build dependable character defenses allows the true nature of reality to appear to man
evidence?
He also says
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Killing is a symbolic solution of a biological limitation; it results from the fusion of the biological level(animal anxiety) with the symbolic one(death fear) in the human animal.
that to me doesn't seem a plausible reason to explain why people kill each other
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Man has no innate instincts of sexuality and aggression.
definitely not true.
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Today we generally see homosexuality as a broad problem of ineptness, vague identity, passivity, helplessness--all in all, an inability to take a powerful stance toward life.
except for the fact it has been found in genes and other animals have been found to be gay
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The lower animals are, of course, spared this painful contradiction, as they lack a symbolic identity and the self-consciousness that goes with it.
except for studies are showing apes, dolphins, and elephants are self-aware. and it has been proven elephants mourn the dead.
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Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism performed the ingenious trick of pretending not to want to be reborn, which is a sort of negative magic: claiming not to want what you really want most
i don't know a lot about Buddhism, but that's a bold assertion.
-------------------- Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines
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jivJaN
yes


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
#14234647 - 04/04/11 02:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think its more fear of the unknown. I don't really understand when you say we have to know it to fear it. I disagree with that. Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is. After all, it might turn out to be harmless and nothing to worry about.
People avoid death anxiety by acquiring knowledge on the after life, regardless of whether this knowledge is objectively verifiable.
Maybe i am misunderstanding your OP ?
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--------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: jivJaN]
#14234891 - 04/04/11 06:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is."
For that to be threatening, you still have to know about the mysterious threat. Without knowing anything at all, there is no fear.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes


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Re: After reading Becker [Re: xFrockx]
#14234944 - 04/04/11 06:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is."
For that to be threatening, you still have to know about the mysterious threat. Without knowing anything at all, there is no fear.
I'm sorry if I'm making an assumption here; are you suggesting that we could somehow become re-ignorant about the fact of death, and therefore Becker's conclusions are incorrect?
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Cups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: bigmike7104] 1
#14234964 - 04/04/11 06:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bigmike7104 said: the problem with the book is he relies on inaccurate science, relies a lot on Kierkegaard writings who was a 19th century philosopher and religious author, and reinterprets a lot of Sigmund Freud.
The problem with the book is you refuse to read it then criticize it. Are there flaws in the book, sure. Is the basic premise sound..yep. Here's some clips documenting empirical experiments from around the world which you might be interested in.
Touches some of the early experiments and also new ones involving the universal human dream of flying as a death denying tool. Last clip gets into the origins of religion and why it may be important to keep it around.
Clip 1
Clip 2
Clip 3
Clip 4
-------------------- What's up everybody?!
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xFrockx


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Yes, and it is as easy as realizing that we always were always ignorant. That requires realizing that you do not know what you think you know. To do that, one has to really think about their ideas, deconstruct them, find the loose ends, and question oneself to a point that most people are not comfortable with. It is very easy to fall back on common, socially-supported arguments to justify beliefs. I am constantly correcting myself, as evidenced by my incessant editing of posts. It can be difficult being your own worst enemy, but it saves one a lot of grief because when you're good at it, no one can be better at showing the faults in your (and consequently, others) ideas than yourself. That sort of things saves a person a lot of time in making decisions, and makes one a more independent thinker. Belief is what a person needs when the information available contradicts their premises. When there is no contradiction there, one does not need to hold on to anything to reconfirm a fact about reality. It will be there to be found whenever it is necessary. To think like this is to remove the burden of being correct from oneself and lay it down in the reality that can be checked and verified by anyone.
Edited by xFrockx (04/04/11 12:04 PM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: xFrockx]
#14235850 - 04/04/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I will be plain short now and read all the previous answers later, then think my text here over: The prime error is, that death anxiety is mixed up with anxiety itself. Anxiety is the primal fear itself, and it is a result from the not known. The consequences of stumbling unprepared into something not known may lead to death and suffering in the worst case, that's where the mixing up comes from. But it's the fear from the unknown first, in a biological sense. To avoid dying, to prolong staying a life, that's the reason behind it.
And now I tell you why this mix up is wrong: There is nothing to experience while death any more, so it is nothing to know in biological terms for the individual anymore. The fear, rooted in the avoidance of dying has no purpose there anymore, as there is not that anymore in a physical sense. So there is nothing to fear about that anymore. It's over. No dark. Just blank nothingness in nonexistence of the brain filtered experience in any case.
So ugh guys, just don't tap blindly in unknown areas for a living, but evenly don't let them rip you away from that living joy, by binding us in something that we will never experience for real. The unknown ever also is there to become explored, not to be avoided only by some biological overrated reflex.
/rant
Edited by BlueCoyote (04/04/11 12:14 PM)
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14235872 - 04/04/11 12:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Anxiety is the primal fear itself, and it is a result from the not known. "
I disagree with this much. I don't see anxiety as the result from the not known, I see it as the result of the dissonance that occurs when one has what one knows thrown out the window by new facts or doubt. Its a anxious feeling because we are in a period of reevaluating our beliefs about whatever it is that got chucked out the window when something happened or someone asked a question we couldn't answer, or when a shark comes for you and you no longer know if you'll make it back to the beach.
Unknowns alone do not cause fear. I don't know how long the sun will last, yet I do not fear this for being unknown. I do not know how many germs are on my keyboard, and I don't fear that either due to its unknownness. What might lead to anxiety or fear is being told that the sun will not rise tomorrow, or that there are enough germs on my keyboard that I will become sick, in which case my preconceptions are challenged, and I am forced to make new ones. But even this cognitive dissonance might not be existent in people who were ready and willing to admit they were wrong, people who do not profess to be wise or knowledgeable, and thus have everything to gain by learning, and nothing to lose by being corrected. Even in the case of learning the sun will go out tomorrow, not everyone would be scared, because some people might very well not have a reason to become more anxious after finding out this is their last day, among these would be mystics who have divorced themselves from human drama, terminal patients who would not see tomorrow anyway, or those who through some other process have come to live in such a way that they would remain unshaken by imminent doom.
Edited by xFrockx (04/04/11 12:17 PM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker [Re: xFrockx]
#14235919 - 04/04/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yah, but isn't it the fact that it's not easy to know how many germs are on your keyboard that what causes more fear than to know that there might be enough already to cause you harm ? Of course ones happiness (<->no harm) still plays the overprime role hehe in counterpart to the fear  If you know there are enough germs already then also the fear is gone when you continue to type on it (wash your hands before eating then ). The unknown in combination with the harm (as a learned consequence) is the key and prime impulse. Harm that can lead in some rare cases to death.
Yah, if they know the sun would not rise tomorrow, fear would be less the case.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
#14236044 - 04/04/11 12:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said: Does anyone here think that there would be any value in undertaking a death initiation ritual as a way of better grokking their fears and defense mechanisms ?
Isn't that what we did as we took enough mushrooms already ?
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14236060 - 04/04/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah I guess so, but is there a specific method for using mushrooms in this way ?
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: jivJaN]
#14236079 - 04/04/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
jivJaN said: I think its more fear of the unknown. I don't really understand when you say we have to know it to fear it. I disagree with that. Its much more frightening to know "something" is in your room than to have a firm grasp of what that something is. After all, it might turn out to be harmless and nothing to worry about. [...]
Yah quite that
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
#14236098 - 04/04/11 01:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Brainstem said:
Yeah I guess so, but is there a specific method for using mushrooms in this way ?
Specific method always implies an individual procedure  I mean, the mushroom at least showed me how ingrained 'believes' can be at least and how fluently they can change depending on the viewpoint of the viewer. That makes me back-conclude (sorry english word missing) there is something quite specific about the individual human mind along all the other human and other minds. Continuation of this thought is that what lets me imagine the dissolving of this existence into physical nothere-ness, but on the other 'hand' some 'living on' in the minds and the tellings... it made an impression among those who knew it.
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14236280 - 04/04/11 01:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I know for instance that the Siberian shaman supposedly use A.muscaria in much the same way Ayahuasca is used in the Americas. There is the legend of the Soma cult in Asia. I personally haven't had any success with Fly Agaric, I have, however partaken in the mycological marvels that are the psilocybin containing species, and maybe not even to the outer limits of their power, but I have still come to appreciate the ability of psilocybin / psilocin to enable the herding together and improved observability of wandering thoughts, and the way in which it can twist and taint my perception of normality. I don't however think mushrooms offer the same, teetering on the edge of oblivion, glimpse of death as some of the darker plants. I base this mostly on things I have read, but my current learning curve is leading me towards these sirens of damnation, and a showdown with my own death, and any fears or delusions perpetuated in my anticipation thereof. This path may be a false yellow brick road, but even if it fails to yield any big answers, I will still be learning along the way.
-------------------- The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
#14236337 - 04/04/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am not sure in how far brain related activities would have anything to do with some existence after death in this context. Death is the disconnection from our brain.
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Brainstem
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: BlueCoyote]
#14236524 - 04/04/11 02:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Then surely highly toxic plants like Datura, Atropa Belladonna and other plants rich in tropane alkaloids are what is called for, in order to drag us to the brink of the end ?
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BlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: Brainstem]
#14240661 - 04/05/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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No need to risk ones life for that  Why should our fantasies be connected to the afterlife (if there's any) anyhow ? To loose ones own ego and view things from other perspectives is enough for me. Anything else you also can safely experience through oobes, lucid dreams or meditation. Tropane stuff is too dangerous in my book and only might lead to some distorted perception where fantasy and reality mix. Better to explore those separately.
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Cursive
I AM



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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death [Re: xFrockx]
#14241118 - 04/05/11 10:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sorry I joined in late, but has anyone considered that Jesus uplifted himself to beyond self, and wanted to die to show that fear is not the last enemy, but that death itself is the last enemy?
Death sparked fear IMO. If you can't get over fear, then you sure as hell won't figure out what death is in your living state of well being. Instead of predominantly anticipating "your resting place," and living life the way the self wants to, many of you here have placed yourself in a magnificent confusion that just accepts what's coming to you and now you may just be breezing by, so to speak.
The Buddha said that we have to work out our own salvation, if this is true then how do we do so? It seems to me the first step would be to adopt a 'spiritual' or eternal attitude within everything. Buddha acted like he had a solidified foundation for everything beyond material in his head, and tried to manifest such teachings as such.
Think about it, if you lived your life avoiding anything to do with material pursuit and saw that all material is valueless, that could only mean one thing.. If you fear death, then you value the body that is material. Nobody said that letting go had to be easy, but then again, what value is there to create humans, or any material for that matter?
Perhaps to descend in consciousness? In other words, something outside of your body had to die, had to give up its current living conditions, to become a state of being that was put in a 'box' that could only recognize outer conditions.
This might get a little drawn out but bare with me..
Think of a video game. Your character running around has no idea what it is or how it got there - it is simply awaiting you to fulfill its role in the grand scheme of things in the life of its creation. The character can basically do nothing without your attention. There is no awareness.
Imagine if you installed an ego into the character. Fear, hate, joy, sorrow... and every time you went to go fight the boss, your person would take off running and screaming in terror, avoiding your control. While you know how to destroy the boss, your character simply denies all inner control and flees.
The character runs into town and finds a nice armor shop, and heads inside. And inside, he sees this invincible magic armor that would make him capable of winning the game on its own, but also a cute girl too. As easy as that, you are no longer in control to buy the armor to go back and fight, but instead your character has now began chatting with the cute chick and you once again lose control.
You now become very bored and walk off due to lack of control, but leave the game running. There appears to be no way of winning. After a while of the character's free experience of the world, the character runs into something that results in its death, and the game is started over, and he seems to be very confused.
After dying many times for many hours, the character realizes that it can't have more reality than it is given, and begins sobbing. When you return, you see the hard time the image is facing, and you pick up the controller and start moving him around. He quickly realizes he is no longer in control, and that something outside of himself is, and he begins shouting out for help to this 'doer.'
As you listen, you realize that this character wants out of the misery of the reality it is faced with, so you take control, and after time, the character gradually begins accepting your control. After some time, you take him back to the boss, but again he runs due to fear, but then realizes that he will only be reset. So he accepts your control, you kill the boss and the game is now complete, and you resume your daily life.
This basically illustrates that within every human there is a REAL doer and an UNREAL doer. While the game had an ending, the game of life never ends. It would seem that the goal of being here is to merely conquer all that drags you away from your inevitable ending, but instead walk right into it with total acceptance of being who you are to be able to defeat "the boss." What is that boss? Death?
Even afterwards, the game is over, what happened to your character? While he thought he was real, you knew he was totally unreal, and that you were real. But he didn't get to come into our reality? No, he is now but a memory for what he became.
Anyways, to get my point across, you are sent here on a mission, as many of you may know or disagree with - the aim of being here is to either ascend or descend in vibration. To become the open doorway for the true doer.
What happens after the game is finished? The only end is no end. Does anyone here understand that freedom? You are not the doer.
-------------------- I am up above all that I am down below..
  
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Cursive
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cursive]
#14241378 - 04/05/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Actually, here's something that you all need to study..
Ask Real Jesus about DEATH
-------------------- I am up above all that I am down below..
  
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xFrockx


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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Cursive]
#14241466 - 04/05/11 11:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Consider, my beloved, how women are often accused of changing their minds a thousand times. But realize that the reality here is that women are more in tune with the reality that you have a perfect right to change your mind at any time. For God has given you free will."
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