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OfflinexFrockx
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After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety * 3
    #14227729 - 04/02/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Becker's philosophy on death anxiety is astoundingly simple, tenacious, and most of all, dangerously plausible. I say 'dangerously' because of the very real effects of what might come from believing in his theories on human nature.

Becker assumes a lot about human nature. One key assumption of his is that the default human emotion is fear. It is our defenses, he claims, that allows us to avoid this state beneath all other states.

It sounds extremely plausible for a number of reasons. First is that we all do die. Second is that fear is a part of all our lives at some point. No matter what you claim your current life-state to be, fear has been a part of your life at some point or another. Everyone who is alive knows what it feels like to be unsure of what will happen, and yet sure that the chance is there that what could happen will mean their demise. Another reason Becker seems so plausible is that we can see the effects of mitigating fear in people. "Charachter armor" is what Becker terms the methods of ego-defense we use to distinguish ourselves and to give us some small sense of familiarity in the world. This familiarity holds us over when it comes to the all-but-penetrating fear of losing everything.

But now it is important for me to note why Becker's theory is merely extremely plausible, and not true. Aside from all the assumptions about human nature Becker makes, which are themselves extremely plausible, there is his core assumption, that the fear of death is underneath all of our motivations, the "worm at the core" of ourselves.

But, even as he makes this assumption about human nature, he admits that this "worm at the core" is learned, a result of nurture rather than nature. In admitting this, it does not seem that Becker realized he has missed the key that he, and indeed, all of us, might need to re-lock the pandora's box of death anxiety, pure, baby-like, innocence.

Allow me to demonstrate what this means. Often we as adults might imagine that we can peel back our preconceptions, and realize that we don't really know anything. At this point, Becker assumes that we would then come in closest contact with our core, our death-anxiety. But there is a real problem with this: If we really know nothing, what is there to fear? Would we not have to know something in order to fear it? That something could be losing a loved one, the end of our future, or some emotional judgment about the worth of our lives, in any case, in order to fear, we must know.

So to anyone who has read this book and found themselves gripped by its argument, realize that the impact of the theory is not so much a result of what Becker points out, but what he forgets. That at core, there is nothing to fear. Death anxiety is the sad result of letting go of everything, but then doubling back and neglecting to realize that you haven't questioned away all your knowledge. If you had, there would be nothing to fear.



And that, my friends, is hopefully not too late to reach those of you who might end your lives due to this theory, gripped by the paralyzing forgetfulness of Becker. Good luck in doubting the rest of your knowledge, and returning to the ignorant bliss you once enjoyed as a child.

Edited by xFrockx (04/02/11 08:37 PM)

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14228177 - 04/02/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

26 views no replies.

TLDR:

Death anxiety can only exist among people that feel they know something. Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.

Edited by xFrockx (04/02/11 08:41 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14228263 - 04/02/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Um, Islander is not here.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14228294 - 04/02/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah that's pretty much what got me to read Becker, you mentioning he wasn't coming back. Did he finally run out of money?

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InvisibleCups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14228700 - 04/02/11 10:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.




Terence McKenna-
Quote:

It's easy to hope if you're stupid!




It cracks me up that read this right as Iceman went off into the sunset.  I'm sure he'll be happy to know.

There are other people here who have read this book you know.  I have, Kickle has...I think Poid has.  I'm sure there are a few others...

I think it's interesting that you find his theory so compelling you use the phrase "extremely plausible" over and over again and yet still give a rebuttal. :lol:

I hear what you are saying.  I don't disagree that to beat death anxiety requires achieving a state far removed from the norm.  But I can't agree that this state is that of an innocent child.

Even a 1 year old reaches for his mother as the tsunami sweeps him away.  :shrug:

Plus, if you really lost all knowledge you would be helpless just like a kid.  I just don't see anyway for that to be practical or achievable.


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What's up everybody?!

Edited by Cups (04/02/11 10:38 PM)

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InvisibleCups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14228712 - 04/02/11 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.




Also wanted to add this was one of my biggest insights from this book.  If you believe the theory, then the people who "succeed" in life the most are the ones who lie to themselves the best.

It's really an interesting thing to think about.


--------------------
What's up everybody?!

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OfflineCherk
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14228852 - 04/02/11 11:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't know he wrote books....I just thought he played a doctor on TV


anyways I think paranoia is more present than fear


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I have considered such matters.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14229852 - 04/03/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Excellent rebuttal :thumbup:
But why go with the ignorant to become happy ? At least we know we exist, even only for a short time, why not make the best out of what we know ?
It might be that most people are dominated by their 'death anxiety' but in sight of the alternative, joy of existence, it makes no rational sense. If you're dominated by death anxiety, you will never have the joy of existing, because you always fear of loosing it instead the joy of prolonging it or the joy of finding new ones.
On the other hand it can be well said that it's a mean to control the masses anyways, that's why it seems to be enforced in unripe societies by their unripe 'leaders'.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Cups]
    #14229984 - 04/03/11 05:59 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
Those who are the most ignorant have nothing to fear.




Also wanted to add this was one of my biggest insights from this book.  If you believe the theory, then the people who "succeed" in life the most are the ones who lie to themselves the best.

It's really an interesting thing to think about.




As has been said quite a few times many people agree with the diagnosis but not his treatment.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
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Chat your fraff"

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14230032 - 04/03/11 06:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i think its more to do with hand anxiety. people who are successful generally are the best at lying to themselves about the awkwardness of their hands. ppl who fail feel acute hand anxiety and generally occupy them with things like, smoking, gambling, fapping etc.

:highfive:

(note how happy they are to momentarily be freed from the nagging oppression of hand anxiety)


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dripping with fantasy

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InvisibleCups
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14230098 - 04/03/11 07:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
As has been said quite a few times many people agree with the diagnosis but not his treatment.




What's your take Grapefruit?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14230101 - 04/03/11 07:38 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know anything because I try to be honest. I do not even know what knowledge is, so how can I possess any of it?

Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:39 AM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14230121 - 04/03/11 07:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You can have 'relative' knowledge. For example like your relations to your environment and such :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14230125 - 04/03/11 07:53 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Is that knowledge? How do you know it is knowledge? How do you know that you know that its knowledge?

If you asked me what an apple was I could show you. When I ask you what knowledge is, what can you show me?

Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 07:56 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxiety [Re: xFrockx]
    #14230138 - 04/03/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

how do you know what to show him when he asks for an apple?

lol coz thats exactly how you know what you know when someone asks :hehehe:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy

Edited by quinn (04/03/11 08:10 AM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
    #14230145 - 04/03/11 08:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I can show you that knowledge is (at least) relative, as it remains constant in some relative framework :shrug:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
    #14230193 - 04/03/11 08:32 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The aspect of death anxiety that is learned isn't exactly something that can be unlearned. It is a developmental process related to having the brain of a human. And there isn't any evidence to the contrary.

Anyone can try to forget that they are human and mortal, but it doesn't make it anything more than a defense.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle]
    #14230220 - 04/03/11 08:42 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"The aspect of death anxiety that is learned isn't exactly something that can be unlearned."

This is an assumption. You may  have evidence for this in yourself, but as far as making a blanket statement for all people, its just sophistry.

"It is a developmental process related to having the brain of a human. And there isn't any evidence to the contrary."

If you believe that fear is locked away beyond reason, you yourself have become unreasonable and will never be able to reason your way out of fear.


"Anyone can try to forget that they are human and mortal, but it doesn't make it anything more than a defense. "


Forget? Oh the assumption! You do what Becker does so often, the backward turning of letting go of beliefs, only to assume with great confidence in  other symbolic judgments of this condition!

We are not human. We are not mortal. We are what we are, and these ideas are made by us. Their meaning is also our creation. To be mortal is to end, but what one makes of that is totally up to them. As with being human. We decide what we believe is human nature, often what we decide is merely a reflection of our own nature.

Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:47 AM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: xFrockx]
    #14230230 - 04/03/11 08:45 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Doesn't bother me to be afraid. But it seems from your attempts to show otherwise that it does bother you. Which IMO is great evidence for the fear you hold of acknowledging reality.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: After reading Becker: An attempt at describing the melancholy of those who believe in death anxi [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #14230242 - 04/03/11 08:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Why is this about me now?

If you had an argument you should be able to persuade me without merely telling me I am repressing what you claim to be true.

Edited by xFrockx (04/03/11 08:52 AM)

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