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Toe_Jam
Bluefoot Bandit



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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225754 - 04/02/11 12:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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oxalic32 said:
Can you quote these passages for me? I'm not familiar with them.
The part when it says, "I THY GOD AM A JELOUS GOD, AND THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME." Ring a bell?
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oxalic32 said: Do they contradict the book or your interpretation of the book? Did jesus get up on a mountain and say, "Interpret everything in this book literally, because it is not a collection of symbols and stories to represent something greater"
So God intentionally made it hard to decipher or possible to have multiple meanings? Why not just lay it out, or why not include things like, "Oh yeah, life evolves."
I mean when it says that all humans come from two people (genetically inpossible) or that all the animals in the world somehow managed to make it to Noah's little boat and didn't massacre each other, it just loses credibility.
And if it is all metaphor what is the point?
And it does say in the Bible that if a person doesn't accept Jesus as his lord and savior he will suffer. Revelation says something like , Depart from me ye cursed and unfaithful, to the fire satan has prepared for you
-------------------- God lay his finger at the Mouth of the Serpent March 1984   A pleasing land of drowsy head it was, Of dreams that wave before the half-shut eye, And of gay castles in the clouds that pass, For ever flushing round a summer sky. -Castle of Indolence
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doses
Obsessive Purist



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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225765 - 04/02/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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oxalic32 said:
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doses said:
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oxalic32 said: Did Jesus say, "If you are anything but Christian, you will suffer!"

(part of) First commandment: "You shall have no other Gods before me"
The ten commandments were reveal to jesus.
Where did jesus say he is the God?
The idea being presenting is there is ONE ultimate god. Anything that is not that ultimate god is false.
The ultimate god is not christian, it is not buddhist, it is not hindu. It knows not of religion and all the silly names we give things.
I really think you're missing the point.
They're not called the Ten Heartfelt Suggestions for a reason. And you're perfectly right, he isn't Hindu. because according to what he's "said" Hindus are heathens.
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: Toe_Jam]
#14225777 - 04/02/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The part when it says, "I THY GOD AM A JELOUS GOD, AND THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME." Ring a bell?
I'm not a Christian so i really dont memorize these things.
The part before that talks about false idols. Basically there is one god and anything else is not that god.
The bible was not originally written in english, jealous could be a poor translation, but considering i can't translate it and don't read other versions i'm not sure.
I believe the ultimate god is beyond human emotion.
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So God intentionally made it hard to decipher or possible to have multiple meanings? Why not just lay it out, or why not include things like, "Oh yeah, life evolves."
Not necessarily God. During the time people were persecuted for religious belief. So they spoke through stories and symbols.
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I mean when it says that all humans come from two people (genetically inpossible) or that all the animals in the world somehow managed to make it to Noah's little boat and didn't massacre each other, it just loses credibility.
If interpreted literally. If you look at the bible literally i think it comes off as a silly book.
And if it is all metaphor what is the point?
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And it does say in the Bible that if a person doesn't accept Jesus as his lord and savior he will suffer. Revelation says something like , Depart from me ye cursed and unfaithful, to the fire satan has prepared for you
Does Jesus say this or the bible? I'm not a big fan of the bible, but i think the message of Jesus was very true.
Gnostic Christianity in my opinion is the bridge between western and eastern religions. I think the banned gospels are much truer to the original meaning.
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225792 - 04/02/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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They're not called the Ten Heartfelt Suggestions for a reason. And you're perfectly right, he isn't Hindu. because according to what he's "said" Hindus are heathens.
I think you're still really missing it.
You can have many names for the same thing, but the name does not change the thing. You can call my car a vehicle. I call my car a car. It is a car. It is a vehicle. Different names for the same things.
The point being expressed is that God is singular. God is unity. God is beyond dualism. So anything dualistic is not God.
Hinduism believe in one ultimate reality/being. They have different names than Christians. But they are all trying to describe the infinite (which is really beyond definition which is why explaining it becomes so difficult and confusing)
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doses
Obsessive Purist



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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225814 - 04/02/11 12:28 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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oxalic32 said:
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They're not called the Ten Heartfelt Suggestions for a reason. And you're perfectly right, he isn't Hindu. because according to what he's "said" Hindus are heathens.
I think you're still really missing it.
You can have many names for the same thing, but the name does not change the thing. You can call my car a vehicle. I call my car a car. It is a car. It is a vehicle. Different names for the same things.
The point being expressed is that God is singular. God is unity. God is beyond dualism. So anything dualistic is not God.
Hinduism believe in one ultimate reality/being. They have different names than Christians. But they are all trying to describe the infinite (which is really beyond definition which is why explaining it becomes so difficult and confusing)
Except for when the first thing the Judeochristian god says is that the billion Hindu people in the world are evil heathens what will burn in hell for eternity. 
I see what you're trying at, but it just doesn't work. Most major monotheistic religions are ignorant and hateful, and all of the loopy, vague, senseless statements in the world won't change that.
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225821 - 04/02/11 12:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The innumerable number of electrical signals being fired between the synapses in your brain is you. ^ if you replace the word "is" with an = you should have your answer.
and I do believe that I already explained that I take ignorant questions offensively so it should be no surprise that I find ignorant believes to be just as aggravating. I do apologize for my insult though.
Do you believe in a unique self? Do you believe we control the self or it is just electrical firings?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
Also, the whole concept of self-identity is a massive part of neuroscience.
What you're suggesting is as inane as saying, "Paleontology is fake because God".
This has nothing to do with God. I'm an atheist.
What does Phineas Gage prove to me?
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for that injury's reported effects on his personality and behavior – effects so profound that friends saw him as "no longer Gage".
Are you saying the self is personality and behavior. If defined that way you are correct.
Is that your definition of self?
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Obey
The Analocalypse



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Re: A question to all aithists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225831 - 04/02/11 12:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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oxalic32 said:
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doses said:
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oxalic32 said:
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The innumerable number of electrical signals being fired between the synapses in your brain is you.
Prove it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience
You keep getting further and further.
Its funny because science is provable. But you claim something which has not been proven.
Where did they prove consciousness is just a brain function? This task is ongoing.
Where did they prove the "self" is the brain? What do you define as the "self"?
your now just changing words to further your hollow point. Nobody defined the self as just the brain. The self is everything that is physically and mentally you. Consciouness is in no way just a brain function, it is the entire electrochemical cycle that keeps you perceiving the world around you and making decisions based upon that. Witch just happens to stem from a little organ that i like to call the brain. I don't believe that I am claiming anything that hasn't been proven, unlike those of you that follow religious ideals as truth.
-------------------- Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction. Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225838 - 04/02/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Except for when the first thing the Judeochristian god says is that the billion Hindu people in the world are evil heathens what will burn in hell for eternity. 
I see what you're trying at, but it just doesn't work. Most major monotheistic religions are ignorant and hateful, and all of the loopy, vague, senseless statements in the world won't change that.
I haven't studied the bible extensively. Anything i study is a translation from the original. Also the many gnostic bibles are not considered part of the Christian canaan.
Todays Christianity is obscured. I am not a Christian. But the central message of Jesus & the bible i believe is very innocent. What we have done to it, is our doings. You can interpret a good thing as a bad thing.
I do understand where you're coming from. Most Christians do reject all other religions and their followers.
What i'm trying to explain is how these things aren't necessarily incompatible with "the god". Not necessarily your average christian's view of "god".
Edited by oxalic32 (04/02/11 12:37 PM)
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225850 - 04/02/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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your now just changing words to further your hollow point. Nobody defined the self as just the brain. The self is everything that is physically and mentally you. Consciouness is in no way just a brain function, it is the entire electrochemical cycle that keeps you perceiving the world around you and making decisions based upon that. Witch just happens to stem from a little organ that i like to call the brain. I don't believe that I am claiming anything that hasn't been proven, unlike those of you that follow religious ideals as truth.
If i want to have a real conversation we need to understand one another. The self is a very controversial term and a very elusive symbol.
Is everything that is "mentally you" produced by the nervous system? Do we make decisions based on our "self" or are you suggesting it is our perceptions or nervous system?
Something that you really need to answer, is the self "unique". Can you identify "you" as the self?
What unfounded claims have I made? I think so far i haven't claimed very much.
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Toe_Jam
Bluefoot Bandit



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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225861 - 04/02/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
oxalic32 said:
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They're not called the Ten Heartfelt Suggestions for a reason. And you're perfectly right, he isn't Hindu. because according to what he's "said" Hindus are heathens.
I think you're still really missing it.
You can have many names for the same thing, but the name does not change the thing. You can call my car a vehicle. I call my car a car. It is a car. It is a vehicle. Different names for the same things.
The point being expressed is that God is singular. God is unity. God is beyond dualism. So anything dualistic is not God.
Hinduism believe in one ultimate reality/being. They have different names than Christians. But they are all trying to describe the infinite (which is really beyond definition which is why explaining it becomes so difficult and confusing)
That makes alot of sense, weareone feeling, I believe that may be the message they were going for and I can put faith in that one. But it seems the whole thing got twisted up by the petty desires and misunderstandings of people in general IMO.
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oxalic32 said: I believe the ultimate god is beyond human emotion.

The Bible is actually a good book (even though I often rag on it) if you look at the morals of what is said, or take metaphor from it, but I have often been around creationists, who actually literally believe the shit. That is where my hostility to it comes from.
It's just not the end all be all some people make it to be. It seems to simplify life in ways, I suppose, If you can believe that stuff. I have read alot of history though and religion is more often used as a form of malignant control than to any positive end.
-------------------- God lay his finger at the Mouth of the Serpent March 1984   A pleasing land of drowsy head it was, Of dreams that wave before the half-shut eye, And of gay castles in the clouds that pass, For ever flushing round a summer sky. -Castle of Indolence
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225877 - 04/02/11 12:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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The Bible is actually a good book (even though I often rag on it) if you look at the morals of what is said, or take metaphor from it, but I have often been around creationists, who actually literally believe the shit. That is where my hostility to it comes from.
It's just not the end all be all some people make it to be. It seems to simplify life in ways, I suppose, If you can believe that stuff. I have read alot of history though and religion is more often used as a form of malignant control than to any positive end.
What you hate is not Christians, but exoterics.
Exoteric people focus on the story, the people and the happenings.
Esoteric people look at these book and see fairy tales. It doesnt matter if they were true or if jesus walked on water. They are stories speaking through symbols trying to deliver a message. The story is the vehicle for the message. Without the message it is just a story, a fable.
However it is difficult to just deliver such a great message. Even talking online it is hard to communicate simple ideas. Thats why we create these stories, to simplify something very complex and we try to not lose the meaning.
Once a religion loses its meaning it rots from the inside out. It has nothing to stand on. This is what is happening to Christianity. People focus on Jesus and the story of Jesus. But Jesus told us to become like him & to look inside. He did not create Christianity or its ideas.
I just hate when people hate on anyone religious. Religion viewed improperly is silly. But once you see things through the right lens some of it does make a lot of sense.
Edited by oxalic32 (04/02/11 12:47 PM)
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Obey
The Analocalypse



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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: Obey]
#14225884 - 04/02/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your now just trying to dispute semantics after failing to make any logical point. If somebody with some wit would like to have a logical debate about consciousness I'm down, But i'm done feeding the troll people.
-------------------- Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction. Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.
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Toe_Jam
Bluefoot Bandit



Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 3,693
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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: Obey]
#14225905 - 04/02/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Obey said: Your now just trying to dispute semantics after failing to make any logical point. If somebody with some wit would like to have a logical debate about consciousness I'm down, But i'm done feeding the troll people.
aw come on man, no trolls here
-------------------- God lay his finger at the Mouth of the Serpent March 1984   A pleasing land of drowsy head it was, Of dreams that wave before the half-shut eye, And of gay castles in the clouds that pass, For ever flushing round a summer sky. -Castle of Indolence
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: Obey]
#14225922 - 04/02/11 12:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Obey said: Your now just trying to dispute semantics after failing to make any logical point. If somebody with some wit would like to have a logical debate about consciousness I'm down, But i'm done feeding the troll people.
semantics are very important. I'm trying to make sure i understand your definition of self.
If you cant define self than i cannot make my point. If you dont define self than your entire argument is arbitrary. Because i don't know what you're trying to prove.
You've also failed to answer a number of crucial questions needed for proving your argument. Citing Phineas Gage does nothing unless you are saying the self is personality and behavior.
Edited by oxalic32 (04/02/11 01:05 PM)
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14225939 - 04/02/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't believe that I am claiming anything that hasn't been proven, unlike those of you that follow religious ideals as truth.
Let me just quote your own source here.
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At this time in neuroscience research, several major questions remained unsolved, especially in cognitive neuroscience. For example, neuroscientists have yet to fully explain the neural basis of consciousness, learning, memory, perception, sensation, and sleep. Several questions regarding the development and evolution of the brain remain unsolved.[which?] Researchers have also yet to fully delineate the neural bases of mental disorders such as addiction, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and psychotic disorders (e.g., schizophrenia). Neuroscientific research on free will is also in the early stages of understanding.[15] Thus, neuroscientists are continuously collaborating with other scientists and researchers to address many of these unresolved problems.[16] Finally, proponents of the science of morality, such as the neuroscientist and writer Sam Harris, maintain that neuroscience will play an important role in the search for optimal moral systems.[17]
I'm not trying to troll you. I've heard your argument many times. It used to be my argument for years of my life. I find that it fell short. If you can bridge the gap for me i'd appreciate it. But i never found that bridge and science didn't find it either.
Something tells me it might not exist.
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Obey
The Analocalypse



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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: oxalic32]
#14226020 - 04/02/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Btw im not sure where the fuck you think i cited that but your vastly mistaken.
and btw Quote:
At this time in neuroscience research, several major questions remained unsolved, especially in cognitive neuroscience. For example, neuroscientists have yet to fully explain the neural basis of consciousness, learning, memory, perception, sensation, and sleep.
I'm sry but mankind does have a pretty good grasp on how the brain works, there is very little in this world that we fully understand.
If you had made a good point and didn't try to dig into the semantics of everything i just posted i wouldn't call you a troll.
-------------------- Anything that is posted by myself Obey is completely fiction. Any pictures posted come from an external unknown source.
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oxalic32


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Re: A question to all Atheists..? [Re: Obey]
#14226058 - 04/02/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm sry but mankind does have a pretty good grasp on how the brain works, there is very little in this world that we fully understand.
If you had made a good point and didn't try to dig into the semantics of everything i just posted i wouldn't call you a troll.
Is a good grasp a full explanation? You are jumping to a conclusion without all the proof. You yell at religions because they lack proof, then you make claims which too lack proof. Even if you have some proof it doesn't matter, because you have some proof not all of it. There is still a gap which you jump using "faith". "Faith" is the same thing you seem to hate, yet you have faith.
Science seems to be your religion. Would you agree with that assertion?
I agree we do not fully understand a lot of things. Science is very limited.
Semantics is meaning. If i don't know what you mean, how can i understand you? Or your point?
Here is the view of science.
Atoms are the smallest thing. Wait no Electrons are the smallest thing. Wait no quarks are the smallest thing. Wait no alpha particles. Wait no higgs particles. Wait no.... People keep saying we will find it. Walking down the same path they think it will be found.
What science does say is the atom is mostly empty. As we look deeper are we finding more and more or less and less? Science claims matter is mostly empty.
Edited by oxalic32 (04/02/11 01:23 PM)
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