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OfflineAldous
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One of the heroes I was talking about
    #1422512 - 04/02/03 07:34 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

A good illustration of what I said in the other thread ("The average US military man") about the real heroes, those who refuse to go. It gives a good idea of how unsuspecting youths are fooled into the army, and of the atmosphere in the boot camp.
(Just hope this wasn't the Guardian's April fool! :grin:)

Marine who said no to killing on his conscience
Fighting not to fight

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles Tuesday April 1, 2003 The Guardian

The first American conscientious objector from the Iraq war will give
himself up at a marine base in California this morning. He said he
believed the war was "immoral because of the deception involved by our
leaders".

Stephen Eagle Funk, 20, a marine reserve who was due to be sent for
combat duty, is currently on "unauthorised absence" from his unit. He
faces a possible court martial and time in military prison for his
action.

"I know I have to be punished for going UA," Mr Funk told the Guardian
in an interview before surrendering to authorities, "but I would rather
take my punishment now than live with what I would have to do [in Iraq]
for the rest of my life. I would be going in knowing that it was wrong
and that would be hypocritical."

Mr Funk, who is originally from Seattle and is half Filipino, was
approached by a recruiting officer last year. At the time, he said, he
was depressed after dropping out of a biology course at the University
of Southern California in Los Angeles. He was working part-time for a
vet and in a pet shop.

His family and friends were surprised by his decision, he said, because
they had known him to have liberal political views and not to have been
interested in the military.

"I wanted to belong and I wanted another direction in my life, and this
seemed to offer it," said Mr Funk. "They told me I would be able to go
back to school [university]." Recruits have their college fees paid
once they complete their service.

"The ads make the armed forces look so cool - 'Call this number and
we'll send you a free pair of boxer shorts' - and a lot of kids don't
realise what's involved," he said. Although he graduated from the
famously tough marine boot camp in San Diego and excelled as a rifleman
during the 12-week induction period, Mr Funk said he had started to
have doubts about military service during his training.

"Every day in combat training you had to yell out 'Kill ! Kill !' and
we would get into trouble if you didn't shout it out, so often I would
just mouth it so I didn't get into trouble." The recruits were also
encouraged to hurt each other during hand-to- hand combat training. "I
couldn't do that so they would pair me up with someone who was very
violent or aggressive."

Mr Funk said many recruits were envious of those who were being sent to
the Gulf. "They would say things like, 'Kill a raghead for me - I'm so
jealous.'"

As a Catholic who attended mass most Sundays during training, he
eventually decided to take his concerns to the chaplain. "He said,
'It's a lot easier if you just give in and don't question authority.'
He quoted the Bible at me and said, 'Jesus says to carry a sword.'

"But I don't think Jesus was a violent man - in fact, the opposite -
and I don't think God takes sides in war _ Everyone told me it was
futile to try to get out."

At shooting practice, although he scored well, the instructor told him
he had an attitude problem : "I was a little pissed off and I said, 'I
think killing people is wrong.' That was the crystallising moment
because I had never said it out loud before. It was such a relief."

He became concerned about the reasons for the conflict in Iraq. "This
war is very immoral because of the deception involved by our leaders.
It is very hypocritical." He is opposed to the use of war as a way of
solving problems.

"War is about destruction and violence and death. It is young men
fighting old men's wars. It is not the answer, it just ravages the land
of the battleground. I know it's wrong but other people in the military
have been programmed to think it is OK."

Mr Funk, who is being counselled by conscientious objectors from the
1991 Gulf war, said he had gone public to try to dissuade other young
people who had not thought through their reasons for joining the
forces. "All they [the military] want is numbers. What I'm doing is
really trying to educate people to weigh their options - there are so
many more ways to get money for school."

He added : "My mum had a gut feeling it wouldn't work out." Although he
does not know what punishment awaits, "it's a risk I'm willing to
take".

This morning, accompanied by his lawyer and former conscientious
objectors from previous wars, he will arrive at his home base in San
Jose, change into his uniform and give himself up. 


Edited by Aldous (04/02/03 07:35 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Aldous]
    #1422527 - 04/02/03 07:46 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

he knew what his job was when he joined the "volunteer" military...he just wanted the college money.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAldous
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1422543 - 04/02/03 08:07 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Yep, sad but true. But that's also what they consciously enticed him with. That's why I wrote they "fool unsuspecting youths into the army". Enticing someone with college money is also the result of a malfunctioning educational system. College should be free, or at least very cheap.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Aldous]
    #1422570 - 04/02/03 08:30 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

But that's also what they consciously enticed him with




noone can be enticed unless they wanted to be. Personal responsibility.

edit:

Quote:

College should be free, or at least very cheap.




i agree that college should be cheap...it's pathetic that the government wants an educated society but makes it so difficult for the average Joe to even afford it. As for private schools that's their business.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (04/02/03 08:37 AM)


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Aldous]
    #1422576 - 04/02/03 08:36 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

He's no real hero.

Mr.Funk needs to get some spunk and follow through with what he signed for on the dotted line.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1422649 - 04/02/03 10:21 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

i agree that college should be cheap...it's pathetic that the government wants an educated society but makes it so difficult for the average Joe to even afford it.  As for private schools that's their business.




Damn Verti, are you feeling OK? You're sounding a bit socialist here.  :smirk: :grin:


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1422659 - 04/02/03 10:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Damn Verti, are you feeling OK? You're sounding a bit socialist here




I've always thought this way.  Can you imagine how much ignorance we'd eliminate with an educated society?  There wouldn't be a libbie in sight. :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1422661 - 04/02/03 10:29 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Depends on what school the people attend. Liberalism thrives in many universities.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1422674 - 04/02/03 10:38 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I've always thought this way.  Can you imagine how much ignorance we'd eliminate with an educated society?  There wouldn't be a libbie in sight. :smirk: 




Lol, I was thinking there wouldn't be a conservative in sight.  :wink:


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: z@z.com]
    #1422684 - 04/02/03 10:51 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Depends on what school the people attend. Liberalism thrives in many universities. 




Notice i said "Educated Society" :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefoghorn
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1423430 - 04/02/03 04:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

i hate to say it, cause i feel it takes alot of heart to do what mr funk did- but the shithead should have known what he signed up for..

like inv said, its a personal responsibility


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: foghorn]
    #1423449 - 04/02/03 04:43 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

He actually said that he didn't know that the Marines might have to kill someone. They only drill it into your head in basic training, which is the same no matter if you're a reservist or regular duty.

It takes guts i admit, however his motives hover around the colleges that he wanted the military to pay for through the GI Bill or whatever bonus that he was recieving.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: z@z.com]
    #1423876 - 04/02/03 07:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Depends on what school the people attend. Liberalism thrives in many universities.




yea it does


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Aldous]
    #1424274 - 04/02/03 09:57 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Conscientious objector my ass that guy is a fucking COWARD...

They drill into your head from day one what its like to go to war, the possibility of going to war, how to survive in war, WAR WAR WAR...

What was he thinking? Maybe they will ask for voulenteers out of all the voulenteers to see who wants to go and who would like to stay home...

Top it off this guy is a FUCKING MARINE, if he was Army or Navy its pretty bad but common Marines are suposed to be the toughest we got...

I hope he spends years in prision getting ass raped gor being a cowardous bitch. Lets see how he likes 5 years of that compared to months of fighting and years of rebuilding in Iraq.


--------------------
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FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1425468 - 04/03/03 07:20 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

wow, you took the words right out of my mouth.....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1425795 - 04/03/03 12:17 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

"What was he thinking? Maybe they will ask for voulenteers out of all the voulenteers to see who wants to go and who would like to stay home..."

I think the whole point, is that he was thinking he'd go to war if it was fair.

If he felt he'd be causing harm in another country, for bullshit reasons, then he wouldn't want to be sent there as one of the US's hired thugs.

I would say that anyone who volunteers to be a government murderer is a little bit morally bankrupt.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineAldous
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1426009 - 04/03/03 01:35 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I hope he spends years in prision getting ass raped gor being a cowardous bitch.


Mmmm, how sensitive of you. You must be a lovely person. Do you even get the sad irony there is to seeing murderers glorified and objectors imprisoned, specially in a nation that boasts its christianity and calls upon god in every other political statement?
Crazy also how the army chaplain distorts his Jesus quotes. I remember Jesus as saying something like "He who lives by the sword shall perish by the sword", and this guy says he told people to take up a sword.
About the "cowardous bitch" part: I think he's very brave to do what "American education" has taught him: to stand firm for his beliefs and principles, even if this gets him in deep shit (which he is, I wouldn't want to stand in his shoes).
One final consideration: to me a person's conscience can evolve, and is much more important than any kind of contract, specially a multiple murder contract.

How twisted can "morality" get?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Aldous]
    #1426046 - 04/03/03 01:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

How twisted can "morality" get?




No shit! Good for him. I cant see how anyone would join a military, even with all the benefits it entices with. I am surprised and sickened by the ingnorant people who say hes a coward, and should be punished.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1426049 - 04/03/03 01:48 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

He signed a contract. He knew what that contract said. He is responsible to follow that contract or face consequences.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: One of the heroes I was talking about [Re: z@z.com]
    #1426060 - 04/03/03 01:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

And what a brave man he is to stand up for his beliefs, and be willing to endure the punishment for the contract he deliberately broke.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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