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I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way.
    #14217614 - 03/31/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm a big fan of Hugo Chavez but I am a libertarian politically. I don't get why I feel this way. I understand why I am libertarian. I don't trust the government. AN example that illustrates why I don't trust the government is that recently an 11 year old girl was gang raped by 18 men in Texas. After this happened the authorities put her in a foster home. The gang rape had nothing to do with the parents though. She was even an A student.

And so basically I want the government to have as little power as possible. So that's why I am a libertarian. But on the other hand I don't understand why I am such a huge fan of Hugo Chavez when he says he is a socialist. Because generally socialism increases the power of the government. I even recently about a Viva Chavez T-shirt.

As far as my opinion of USA policy towards socialist countries I just think the USA government should not try to interfere with those countries and that the USA should respect their right to self-determination. So I disagree with any sort of imperialism.

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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: lines] * 1
    #14217628 - 03/31/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If you don't understand why you have a certain view it's probably bullshit.


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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: 4896744]
    #14217933 - 03/31/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Bullshit, indeed.
I think you're experiencing a visceral feeling of pleasure that Chavez is sticking his middle finger to the government that happens to be oppressing YOU. :jah:

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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: lines] * 1
    #14217996 - 03/31/11 11:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I consider myself a libertarian. For this reason, I believe the ideal government works to protect freedom and opportunity for ALL of its citizens. The US government has failed miserably to achieve this goal by putting the rich on welfare while screwing the poor by de-prioritizing public education and other public services. It has also devised a wide array of means for senselessly screwing over the poor at the expense of freedoms for all, such as in the drug war.

Other governments have excelled at caring for their citizens without sacrificing the economic robustness of free-market systems. They adhere to systems known as "social democracy" and "Christian democracy," both of which are dirty words in our own political discourse due to fallacious associations with communism made by political commentators - who themselves are in the pockets of those who benefit from this state of affairs.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14218007 - 03/31/11 11:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

im not a fan of any politician or world leader they are all immoral citizen killing greedy pigs..some just get away with it....or are really good at fooling the people..:shrug:

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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: smokintheherb]
    #14219394 - 04/01/11 07:36 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

smokintheherb said:
I think you're experiencing a visceral feeling of pleasure that Chavez is sticking his middle finger to the government that happens to be oppressing YOU.




Interesting analysis

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Offline4896744
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14220125 - 04/01/11 11:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I consider myself a libertarian. For this reason, I believe the ideal government works to protect freedom and opportunity for ALL of its citizens. The US government has failed miserably to achieve this goal by putting the rich on welfare while screwing the poor by de-prioritizing public education and other public services. It has also devised a wide array of means for senselessly screwing over the poor at the expense of freedoms for all, such as in the drug war.

Other governments have excelled at caring for their citizens without sacrificing the economic robustness of free-market systems. They adhere to systems known as "social democracy" and "Christian democracy," both of which are dirty words in our own political discourse due to fallacious associations with communism made by political commentators - who themselves are in the pockets of those who benefit from this state of affairs.




Explain to me how the government has put the rich on welfare.

Also, in what way have they de-prioritized public education and other public services?

Lastly, please provide examples of working social democracies that aren't plagued with enormous debt. The United States is already a social democracy.


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Invisiblesmokintheherb
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: lines]
    #14221015 - 04/01/11 01:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Quote:

smokintheherb said:
I think you're experiencing a visceral feeling of pleasure that Chavez is sticking his middle finger to the government that happens to be oppressing YOU.




Interesting analysis




Trust me, one of my best friends and his family fled Venezuala almost four years ago now. You don't like Chavez for his government policies.. :shrug:

If you want a socialist Latin goverment leader to support go with Evo Morales for the win!Evo Morales on Daily Show

Evo Morales demands Obama be stripped of Nobel

Morales calls out the United States on a lot of bullshit
:toast:

Viva la coca!

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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: smokintheherb]
    #14221263 - 04/01/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

smokintheherb said:
Quote:

lines said:
Quote:

smokintheherb said:
I think you're experiencing a visceral feeling of pleasure that Chavez is sticking his middle finger to the government that happens to be oppressing YOU.




Interesting analysis




Trust me, one of my best friends and his family fled Venezuala almost four years ago now. You don't like Chavez for his government policies.. :shrug:





Oh wow, what policy of Chavez's did your friends family find oppressive. Thanks for telling me this it would be very insightful to hear about what specifically happened to your friends family that made them have to leave. Sorry to hear about them having to get out of there.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14221820 - 04/01/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:Explain to me how the government has put the rich on welfare.

Also, in what way have they de-prioritized public education and other public services?

Lastly, please provide examples of working social democracies that aren't plagued with enormous debt. The United States is already a social democracy.




Every developed country in the world is plagued with debt. The US is anything but a social democracy: we have a pluralist lobbying system, weak unincorporated unions, skyrocketing tax breaks for the very wealthy, and every year we are giving corporate entities more and more rights.

Are you following the news? They've deprioritized public education by constantly cutting more and more money from it. And whenever politicians talk about "fixing education" what they really mean is giving well-off families money to send their kids to private schools.

Please don't drink the Tea Party kool-aid. :picard:


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


Edited by Tchan909 (04/01/11 04:15 PM)

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: smokintheherb]
    #14221927 - 04/01/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

smokintheherb said:
Quote:

lines said:
Quote:

smokintheherb said:
I think you're experiencing a visceral feeling of pleasure that Chavez is sticking his middle finger to the government that happens to be oppressing YOU.




Interesting analysis




Trust me, one of my best friends and his family fled Venezuala almost four years ago now. You don't like Chavez for his government policies.. :shrug:

If you want a socialist Latin goverment leader to support go with Evo Morales for the win!Evo Morales on Daily Show

Evo Morales demands Obama be stripped of Nobel

Morales calls out the United States on a lot of bullshit
:toast:

Viva la coca!




Evo Morales is fucking gangster. We need an emoticon of that most remarkably, uniquely sane politician.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisiblesmokintheherb
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: lines]
    #14222656 - 04/01/11 06:45 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lines said:
Oh wow, what policy of Chavez's did your friends family find oppressive. Thanks for telling me this it would be very insightful to hear about what specifically happened to your friends family that made them have to leave. Sorry to hear about them having to get out of there.




Well basically from what I understand of the situation, they were starting to get signs of Chavez setting up a dictatorship (which looking back now, they left at a good time).
I know Juan (typical name, haha) has told me that one of the first things they got upset about was the nationalizing of TV broadcasting.

Also, the "Chavistas," as they call the Chavez loyalists, are encouraged to report anyone they suspect of being non-supportive of Chavez. Anyone suspected of not being loyal is blacklisted from government jobs (which with the nationalization of the broadcast corps and oil industry adds up to a lot of jobs).

Besides the fact that they didn't want to be living in a dictatorship within the next ten years, they just felt like Chavez is running the country into the ground with his innane control and usage of the country's oil industry which is its number one economic product.

Their family owned an ice factory, which Juan's dad continued to travel back and forth to Venezuela to help operate and keep that income, but a couple years ago he stopped and sold his share of the factory (which wasn't worth a whole lot) because he was that afraid of being detained in the country, like what he was doing could be considered suspicious.

Other than all that, if you actually do some research on what Chavez has been doing with the country, I doubt you will feel the same about him.

His rise to power has been more Hitler-esque than most of the common era dictators(i.e. it wasn't a bloody overthrow), but if you claim to dislike big government, you do not like this man!

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Offline4896744
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14222850 - 04/01/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
Quote:

iThink said:Explain to me how the government has put the rich on welfare.

Also, in what way have they de-prioritized public education and other public services?

Lastly, please provide examples of working social democracies that aren't plagued with enormous debt. The United States is already a social democracy.




Every developed country in the world is plagued with debt. The US is anything but a social democracy: we have a pluralist lobbying system, weak unincorporated unions, skyrocketing tax breaks for the very wealthy, and every year we are giving corporate entities more and more rights.

Are you following the news? They've deprioritized public education by constantly cutting more and more money from it. And whenever politicians talk about "fixing education" what they really mean is giving well-off families money to send their kids to private schools.

Please don't drink the Tea Party kool-aid. :picard:




Do you know why almost all developed countries have debt? It is because almost all of them have entitlement programs that are not economically feasible.

Secondly, you are wrong that it is not a social democracy. The existence of things like free health care, retirement, and free education make it relatively social no matter how you calibrate the scale for measuring how "social" it really is.

I am only ok with a move in the "social" direction as long as it remains economically feasible.

On your next point, public education needs to be dumped anyways. The system is getting worse and worse. Just look at countries that have done away with their public education system, like New Zealand, and left it to the free market. The people receive subsidies to help pay for the private school of their choice and the quality of education is much better.

Did you know more funding does nothing to make public schools better? One of the most highly funded districts is Washington D.C. yet it is still one of the worst in the country.
The government spends over 15k a year on each child there. That is more than enough to give your child a good private school eduction, and with the demand for schooling more establishments would spring up quickly.


--------------------
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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: 4896744]
    #14222881 - 04/01/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

New Zealand is a different country from the US. It's much more homogenized, and the American free market doesn't have nearly as many restrictions on it. I just don't have the faith that we're capable of privatizing education without screwing over the people who are already poor even more.

Also, what are you talking about? Free health care? No. We do not have free health care. Where did you get that?

We have some social functions but by comparison with other wealthy countries they are very weak and under-emphasized.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Offline4896744
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14223055 - 04/01/11 08:10 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
New Zealand is a different country from the US. It's much more homogenized, and the American free market doesn't have nearly as many restrictions on it. I just don't have the faith that we're capable of privatizing education without screwing over the people who are already poor even more.

Also, what are you talking about? Free health care? No. We do not have free health care. Where did you get that?

We have some social functions but by comparison with other wealthy countries they are very weak and under-emphasized.




What is medicare, medicaid, and now obamacare? They are free health care that's what.

Also, what evidence leads you to believe privatization of education would fuck over the poor?


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: 4896744] * 1
    #14223457 - 04/01/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

None of those programs go far enough. All citizens should have equal access to health care of equal quality. The current system reinforces social stratification by affording the wealthy better treatment and quality of life than poorer people.

And I can't give you a specific reason why privatized education will fuck over the poor, but above paragraph is an example of how they always manage to find a way in this country.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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Invisiblesmokintheherb
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14223538 - 04/01/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's in the Declaration.
We all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Doesn't healthcare fall into the category of "life"?

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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: smokintheherb]
    #14224897 - 04/02/11 06:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

smokintheherb said:
Quote:

lines said:
Oh wow, what policy of Chavez's did your friends family find oppressive. Thanks for telling me this it would be very insightful to hear about what specifically happened to your friends family that made them have to leave. Sorry to hear about them having to get out of there.




Well basically from what I understand of the situation, they were starting to get signs of Chavez setting up a dictatorship (which looking back now, they left at a good time).
I know Juan (typical name, haha) has told me that one of the first things they got upset about was the nationalizing of TV broadcasting.

Also, the "Chavistas," as they call the Chavez loyalists, are encouraged to report anyone they suspect of being non-supportive of Chavez. Anyone suspected of not being loyal is blacklisted from government jobs (which with the nationalization of the broadcast corps and oil industry adds up to a lot of jobs).

Besides the fact that they didn't want to be living in a dictatorship within the next ten years, they just felt like Chavez is running the country into the ground with his innane control and usage of the country's oil industry which is its number one economic product.

Their family owned an ice factory, which Juan's dad continued to travel back and forth to Venezuela to help operate and keep that income, but a couple years ago he stopped and sold his share of the factory (which wasn't worth a whole lot) because he was that afraid of being detained in the country, like what he was doing could be considered suspicious.

Other than all that, if you actually do some research on what Chavez has been doing with the country, I doubt you will feel the same about him.

His rise to power has been more Hitler-esque than most of the common era dictators(i.e. it wasn't a bloody overthrow), but if you claim to dislike big government, you do not like this man!




Well I just read some stuff online about families fleeing Venezuela and in the google search thing I typed Hitler because you made the comparison and what I found was that many jewish families left Venezuela because they were worried that Chavez was going to be another Hitler. And so its pretty sad to hear about how freaked out some of those people got, it must have been terrifying for them. I realy hope that they are wrong about Chavez and that he isn't a dictator but I guess I would like to read more on him from various sides of the situation.

Edited by lines (04/02/11 06:37 AM)

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Invisiblesmokintheherb
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: lines]
    #14225212 - 04/02/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lines said:

Well I just read some stuff online about families fleeing Venezuela and in the google search thing I typed Hitler because you made the comparison and what I found was that many jewish families left Venezuela because they were worried that Chavez was going to be another Hitler. And so its pretty sad to hear about how freaked out some of those people got, it must have been terrifying for them. I realy hope that they are wrong about Chavez and that he isn't a dictator but I guess I would like to read more on him from various sides of the situation.




Hopefully you didn't have to google search to learn about that stuff about Hitler.. haha.

But I was actually trying to make the analogy that Hitler had a brilliant, non-violent (at least, he didn't have to forcibly take over the government) political campaign and came out the leader. Chavez, too, was voted into power by his people. But he is now working to abolish the system through which he came to power, and make the government his own property.

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Offline4896744
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Re: I'm a fan of Hugo Chavez but I'm libertarian. I don't understand why I feel this way. [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14225381 - 04/02/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
None of those programs go far enough. All citizens should have equal access to health care of equal quality. The current system reinforces social stratification by affording the wealthy better treatment and quality of life than poorer people.

And I can't give you a specific reason why privatized education will fuck over the poor, but above paragraph is an example of how they always manage to find a way in this country.




Why should we create unfeasible "business plans" for our government to make sure everyone receives equal things? Why is this inherently good?

Not only are your ideas a subjective preference, but they are completely unfeasible. Show me examples of countries that do what you propose without drowning themselves with debt.


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