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OfflineCoaster
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What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income?
    #14216510 - 03/31/11 06:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

that way we wont give tax breaks to the rich while the lower class is hurtin
that way its fair
so nobody can complain about giving tax breaks or tax increases
it will be fair
or is that really fair? am I missing something?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Coaster]
    #14217420 - 03/31/11 09:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income?

The rich would get much, much richer and the poor would get completely screwed.  Currently, the rich pay almost the entire tax burden while the poor pay nothing, and in many cases actually make money.

> or is that really fair? am I missing something?

You are missing something.  The idea that the rich are getting a tax break while the poor are getting screwed is a nifty slight of hand with numbers.  It has been described in detail in other posts and is not difficult to see once it is pointed out.


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OfflineBest
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Seuss]
    #14218960 - 04/01/11 04:10 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'd imagine you're talking about a tax on income at a flat rate? Not a flat sales tax?

In either case, the rich will be coming out ahead. The rich already pay a higher percentage of taxes on their income, not counting whatever loopholes may exist. Because of this, you would have to lower tax on the rich and make those in lower tax brackets pay more to make up for the tax deficit created. This will be necessary for a flat tax on income as everyone needs to be taxed an equal percentage. It is not really possible to ask those in the lower brackets to pay the same percentages those who make millions and more do now, thus lower brackets would need raised while higher brackets would need lowered to come to an equilibrium. I'd imagine this would be disastrous.

If you're talking about a flat sales tax in place of any sort of income tax, that is also detrimental to the poor. For instance, both the rich and poor need to buy items which will be taxed. To get the same exact items, the poor person will be taxed a much greater portion of their income opposed to the wealthy.

Of course I'm no expert, but that's how I understand things.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Seuss]
    #14219222 - 04/01/11 05:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:

You are missing something.  The idea that the rich are getting a tax break while the poor are getting screwed is a nifty slight of hand with numbers.  It has been described in detail in other posts and is not difficult to see once it is pointed out.




The scary thing is that people tend to continue to hold the same old views even after learning that the premises they were based on were bullshit.

I think there's a decent portion of society who really believe the hype about the poor paying more in taxes or the rich getting lower tax rates on their income due to "loopholes" (always unnamed, folks are sure they exist, but don't know of any), and unfair legislation.

I can at least respect the people who reveal their logical faculties and ideas to have some integrity and change their positions after their misunderstandings are corrected.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: johnm214]
    #14223071 - 04/01/11 08:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

GE actually claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion

theres a name for ya :smirk:


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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Seuss]
    #14224074 - 04/01/11 11:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe. But you have to take into consideration the basic cost of living.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Coaster]
    #14224831 - 04/02/11 05:02 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

> GE actually claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion

And the CEO of GE, Jeffrey Immelt, is the head of Obama's Economic Advisory Panel... Change, yes we can!  :rolleyes:

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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Coaster]
    #14224902 - 04/02/11 06:43 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
GE actually claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion

theres a name for ya :smirk:




What does "claimed tax benefit" mean?  What are you asserting and how does that relate to your claims?

Ignoring the fact that GE isn't a person, rich or poor, and that their income is therefore of unclear relevance to your claims, I fail to see how this supports your premise that the US operates so as to wrongly "give tax breaks to the rich while the lower class is hurtin".

GE's claimed "$3.2 billion benefit" is presumably calculated relative to what they would have paid had they taken no deductions for business expenses and legislated tax credits, deductions, yes?  Your calculus simply presume the highest level tax rate (amongst the highest in the world) is somehow just by default and that any departure from that is an unjust handout.  Plainly: your argument fails as you've not even clearly stated what you are claiming GE did, let alone how that supports you similarly unclear claim.

Your position is even more difficult to understand given your frequent evangelism for alternative energy research and investment, claiming companies should get huge tax breaks, even paying nothing at all, if they invest in such technologies

Quote:

Coaster said:
if we invested in clean energy it would b cheaper than coal
and we need to tax what we burn not what we earn



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8919161#8919161

How, then, are you criticizing this exact practice which allowed GE to get tax credits/writeoffs for its alternative energy investments?  Its endorsements like yours that have motivated the politicians to create these programs- what right do you have to now because you got just a taste of what you asked for?

Quote:

A review of company filings and Congressional records shows that one of the most striking advantages of General Electric is its ability to lobby for, win and take advantage of tax breaks.

Over the last decade, G.E. has spent tens of millions of dollars to push for changes in tax law, from more generous depreciation schedules on jet engines to “green energy” credits for its wind turbines. But the most lucrative of these measures allows G.E. to operate a vast leasing and lending business abroad with profits that face little foreign taxes and no American taxes as long as the money remains overseas.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110329/bs_nm/us_ge

Do you know what you want?

It sure doesn't seem so.


BTW. as Seuss mentions, your endorsement of Obama and radical tax cuts for "green energy" is even more difficult to reconcile with your criticism of GE's tax practices and lobbying efforts, given the Obama administration's facilitation of such:

Quote:

Even as the government faces a mounting budget deficit, the talk in Washington is about lower rates. President Obama has said he is considering an overhaul of the corporate tax system, with an eye to lowering the top rate, ending some tax subsidies and loopholes and generating the same amount of revenue. He has designated G.E.’s chief executive, Jeffrey R. Immelt, as his liaison to the business community and as the chairman of the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, and it is expected to discuss corporate taxes.



Id

I ask again:  Do you know what you want?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: johnm214]
    #14226305 - 04/02/11 02:02 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/opinion/l31ge.html

Quote:

Re “At G.E. on Tax Day, Billions of Reasons to Smile” (“But Nobody Pays That” series, front page, March 25):

It was significant losses at GE Capital in the financial crisis, not “tax avoidance” strategies, that reduced General Electric’s 2010 overall tax rate below historic levels.

Without these financial crisis losses at GE Capital, G.E.’s tax rate would have been near the average of other multinational corporations. Our tax rate will return to more normal levels this year as GE Capital recovers from the financial crisis. In short, when you lose money, you don’t pay taxes, and that’s what happened at GE Capital.

The Times points out that G.E.’s job numbers in the United States are down over the past decade, but does not provide the context: G.E.’s employment in the United States has increased in this period, apart from the sale of businesses. Those jobs weren’t eliminated; they moved to other companies.

GARY SHEFFER
V.P., Communications and Public Affairs General Electric
Fairfield, Conn., March 27, 2011




It's called income averaging and you can do it, too.  If your investments lose 10 billion one year and make 10 billion the next year you can average them out.


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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14226600 - 04/02/11 03:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, but does that explain the apparent refund they get? Coaster's argument is so vague and contradictory I have no idea what he's actually claiming, but my review of the sources suggests that this "benefit" Coaster speaks of is money that is owed GE at the time of the filing.

Where does this money come from?  I'm presuming its money they paid in during the year for a tax liability that at year's end didn't exist, so the "loan" the government took had to be repaid?(sans interest of course) 

I actually read the new york times article referenced in the letter you post.  At the time, I thought it was pretty horribly biased against GE, calling their actions exploiting loopholes: like not US paying taxes on foreign investments (why should they have to? just pushing more buisness overseas).  I can't remember reading an article that seemed that biased from the NYT on a buisness-government matter like that, it was pretty shocking actually.  Interesting to see that there's apparently some pretty solid, mundane, explanations for their low tax liability.

(the loophole refrences in tax discussions seem to be as mythical as the stories Coaster refers to of rich folks paying less tax than poor people, or getting inequitable cuts- they generally always refer to an explicit exemption or provision which is obviously intentional and well-established. Calling these things loopholes seems pretty biased and calculated to misinform and feed those allready believing such things.  A loophole seems like it should describe some surepticious, sneaky, use of an unintended exemption or technical feature of the law)

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Coaster]
    #14226625 - 04/02/11 03:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
that way we wont give tax breaks to the rich while the lower class is hurtin
that way its fair
so nobody can complain about giving tax breaks or tax increases
it will be fair
or is that really fair? am I missing something?





i've been thinking of it being like that for such a long time, but what can you do? there is a reason i don't vote very often. it's a waste of time


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OfflineBothHands
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: johnm214]
    #14226665 - 04/02/11 03:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm pretty sure GE got the tax break because all their profit came from outsourced branches, and thereby bypassed the tax.

They lost money in the US, but they still ended up with a sizable profit.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: johnm214]
    #14226696 - 04/02/11 03:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Yeah, but does that explain the apparent refund they get? Coaster's argument is so vague and contradictory I have no idea what he's actually claiming, but my review of the sources suggests that this "benefit" Coaster speaks of is money that is owed GE at the time of the filing.

Where does this money come from?  I'm presuming its money they paid in during the year for a tax liability that at year's end didn't exist, so the "loan" the government took had to be repaid?(sans interest of course) 

I actually read the new york times article referenced in the letter you post.  At the time, I thought it was pretty horribly biased against GE, calling their actions exploiting loopholes: like not US paying taxes on foreign investments (why should they have to? just pushing more buisness overseas).  I can't remember reading an article that seemed that biased from the NYT on a buisness-government matter like that, it was pretty shocking actually.  Interesting to see that there's apparently some pretty solid, mundane, explanations for their low tax liability.

(the loophole refrences in tax discussions seem to be as mythical as the stories Coaster refers to of rich folks paying less tax than poor people, or getting inequitable cuts- they generally always refer to an explicit exemption or provision which is obviously intentional and well-established. Calling these things loopholes seems pretty biased and calculated to misinform and feed those allready believing such things.  A loophole seems like it should describe some surepticious, sneaky, use of an unintended exemption or technical feature of the law)





yet you claim that there are no real higher tax cuts for rich then there are poor, or vice versa. but am I wrong? did George Bush not say the wealthiest 1.5% of the people in the united states didn't have to pay income tax because of the fact that their 'major business' helps the economy? :lol:


oh but I thought taxing people to create government business created services for people and jobs for people, :foreheadslap: what was I thinking?


that means the richest 1%? sounds like fortune 500 companies to me, if you do the math, most of the richest ones, wouldn't be paying income tax. let's not forget that 5% of the population owns 95% of the wealth, 1% of the richest not paying income tax is actually a bigger number than 1% of the business out there, it's more like 10% or higher of all the business out there, can we really afford to not have taxed those people?


and yet people think the economical situation is mostly created by the housing crisis, read those numbers there dude, do you think we didn't lose money but giving tax breaks for the super wealthy?



not to mention the minimum wage not changing for practically 20 years didn't do damage. people seem to think the minimum wage going up hurts people, that it ruins small businesses. really, think about it, if a small business can't pay it's workers $100 a day, they probably aren't doing that great to begin with. and to be honest, most small businesses have gotten away with not paying the previous minimum wage for years and years anyway. also the more money people make on their checks the more extra money they have to go spend, this means more customers and businesses doing much better as a whole.


awhile someone said minimum wage hurts, that there should be no minimum wage, and people wouldn't have to be able to pay such a small amount of money. but really, if there was no minimum wage, do you think that means people WOULDN'T get away with paying people less money? RIDICULOUS


people can pay workers whatever they want, it's not a maximum wage, it's a minimum wage, and it's there, because basically if it didn't exist, businesses wouldn't pay people horse shit.


we'd be fine with a minimum wage of $9.15 an hour, businesses would STILL be able to exist and pay people that much. to be honest i can't see how businesses making all the money themselves stimulates the economy. at all.

the point of businesses being there and doing well is to give people jobs. if the business paid out it's ass so much that it no longer existed, ok that's one thing. but paying people fairly with the jobs they DO give, isn't a bad thing at all, it stimulates the economy, and more people have money to buy houses etc.


in the 1950's, houses were quite a bit cheaper also. and i don't just mean with inflation over the horizon, i mean comparatively speaking, things were more balanced back then. but, we don't live in the times of the way the economy was in the 1950's do we? :shrug:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: imachavel]
    #14226732 - 04/02/11 03:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No, Bush didn't say that.  No, government spending does not create jobs or revenue, it meerly redistributes wealth.  The United States already bones the highest 10% more than Europe.  The higher the minimum wage the more you price people out of the job market and cause increased unemployment.

Why should GE pay taxes on activities outside the US?  It shouldn't.  GE lost huge money the years before.  You are allowed to income average, yes even you.

The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: imachavel]
    #14226852 - 04/02/11 04:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I believe your correct if by "outsourced branches" you simply mean foreign funds likely held by purpose-created legal entities.

I never really got why this was so controversial.  Seems pretty plain that if you didn't make the money in the country, the country should have no right to it.

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Yeah, but does that explain the apparent refund they get? Coaster's argument is so vague and contradictory I have no idea what he's actually claiming, but my review of the sources suggests that this "benefit" Coaster speaks of is money that is owed GE at the time of the filing.

Where does this money come from?  I'm presuming its money they paid in during the year for a tax liability that at year's end didn't exist, so the "loan" the government took had to be repaid?(sans interest of course) 

I actually read the new york times article referenced in the letter you post.  At the time, I thought it was pretty horribly biased against GE, calling their actions exploiting loopholes: like not US paying taxes on foreign investments (why should they have to? just pushing more buisness overseas).  I can't remember reading an article that seemed that biased from the NYT on a buisness-government matter like that, it was pretty shocking actually.  Interesting to see that there's apparently some pretty solid, mundane, explanations for their low tax liability.

(the loophole refrences in tax discussions seem to be as mythical as the stories Coaster refers to of rich folks paying less tax than poor people, or getting inequitable cuts- they generally always refer to an explicit exemption or provision which is obviously intentional and well-established. Calling these things loopholes seems pretty biased and calculated to misinform and feed those allready believing such things.  A loophole seems like it should describe some surepticious, sneaky, use of an unintended exemption or technical feature of the law)





yet you claim that there are no real higher tax cuts for rich then there are poor, or vice versa. but am I wrong?




Basically I criticize the notion that the poor get screwed with tax (or lower middle class) while the rich get tax breaks.  In general the notion that the rich pay less tax than the poor or lower middle class on income is silly, in the US.  Those trying to make it out like the rich get special benefits try to create misleading arguments like talking about how the rich got a higher tax cut.

As I detailed in response to a graph Scavenger Type was using to argue essentially this point, it is pretty much impossible for the poor to match the income-relative tax cuts of the rich simply because they pay such little tax.  Cutting the poor's tax by 50% won't make them save much either as a percentage of their income or in magnitude of money, while even a small reduction in the rich's rate will both manifest a larger magnitude of savings and a higher income-relative savings percisely because they pay so much tax in both magnitude and relative to income.

The arguments I see by people asserting the rich get special treatment seem to rely upon ignorance about the nature of this mathmatical reality to suggest that these results are nefarious or showing favrotism.  This is what I oppose. (many seem genuinely ignorant, I'm not claiming those advancing these arguments are neccesarily dishonest intentionally, they just parrot arguments they don't understand but that seem supportive of what they'd like to believe)

Quote:

did George Bush not say the wealthiest 1.5% of the people in the united states didn't have to pay income tax because of the fact that their 'major business' helps the economy? :lol:




I'd pretty much bet anything that he didn't, but I don't know what your referring to.  Its not the way the law is anyways, so it doesn't really matter.

Quote:


oh but I thought taxing people to create government business created services for people and jobs for people, :foreheadslap: what was I thinking?




it does, but I suspect this masks a net decrease in wealth and having fascist policies like this where government is running buisness leads to corruption and abuses of a kind pretty much everyone should be against.  Government generally doesn't produce wealth and even when that is their goal, they do far less with the money than private buisness would, hence: taking money from buisness to build up the economy is a net loss for everyone but the government


Quote:

that means the richest 1%? sounds like fortune 500 companies to me, if you do the math, most of the richest ones, wouldn't be paying income tax.




People aren't companies, the richest 1% don't become a company just cause they have money. 

What math should I do to realize the richest ones wouldn't be paying income tax?  Anyways, income tax doesn't tax wealth, it taxes income.  How much you have is irrelevant.


Quote:

let's not forget that 5% of the population owns 95% of the wealth, 1% of the richest not paying income tax is actually a bigger number than 1% of the business out there, it's more like 10% or higher of all the business out there, can we really afford to not have taxed those people?




I don't know what you're saying, but your premise that the richest 1% don't pay taxes, is dubious at best.  Please state more clearly what you are saying and justify it.


Quote:

and yet people think the economical situation is mostly created by the housing crisis, read those numbers there dude, do you think we didn't lose money but giving tax breaks for the super wealthy?




No, of course, but what does it matter?  If I plan to steal everything from you, any scrap of property I leave you with is a "loss" from that projection.  This relative value has nothing to do with what is just or appropriate.  That something is a "cut" does not mean it was unjustified, and I strongly suspect the reporting and populare perception of these fluctuating tax levels suffers from confirmation bias and avalability heuristic errors: basically it gets reported when a fluctuation benefits the rich by some amount, but I doubt such is the case in the contrary case.
Quote:




not to mention the minimum wage not changing for practically 20 years didn't do damage. people seem to think the minimum wage going up hurts people, that it ruins small businesses. really, think about it, if a small business can't pay it's workers $100 a day, they probably aren't doing that great to begin with. and to be honest, most small businesses have gotten away with not paying the previous minimum wage for years and years anyway. also the more money people make on their checks the more extra money they have to go spend, this means more customers and businesses doing much better as a whole.




This seems entirely speculative, further, that a company isn't doing that great doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether their rights are violated by the imposition of a minimum wage law.




Quote:

the point of businesses being there and doing well is to give people jobs. if the business paid out it's ass so much that it no longer existed, ok that's one thing. but paying people fairly with the jobs they DO give, isn't a bad thing at all, it stimulates the economy, and more people have money to buy houses etc.




Please justify your claims with an argument and cited factual support.

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OfflineBothHands
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: johnm214]
    #14226879 - 04/02/11 04:09 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I believe your correct if by "outsourced branches" you simply mean foreign funds likely held by purpose-created legal entities.

I never really got why this was so controversial.  Seems pretty plain that if you didn't make the money in the country, the country should have no right to it.  Especially given that its my understanding GE could simply




Yeah, they're legal entities.  And you're right, the government shouldn't have the right to money made outside the country.  But the government also shouldn't be giving billions in tax credit to companies that are outsourcing all our jobs to foreign countries. 

I'm not sure you finished that last sentence.

Edited by BothHands (04/02/11 05:17 PM)

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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: BothHands] * 1
    #14227062 - 04/02/11 04:58 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


The rich would get much, much richer and the poor would get completely screwed.  Currently, the rich pay almost the entire tax burden while the poor pay nothing, and in many cases actually make money.




This is absolutly false, the middle class is the one getting ripped off in all societies, in fact, the people on welfare and the parasitical speculating rich folk have alot in common when it comes to values.

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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: communeart]
    #14230002 - 04/03/11 06:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Who gets ripped off in the authoritarian regimes which you love so much?

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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Coaster]
    #14230017 - 04/03/11 06:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

A lot of countries, in Central and Eastern Europe especially, now have a flat tax.  For example, Hungary has a 16% tax for all income and Slovakia has a 19% tax on all income.  I believe in both of these countries, income from any source (corporate or personal) is taxed at the same flat rate, without deductions.  Sure makes filing a hell of a lot simpler and reduces the bureaucratic burden.

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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: communeart]
    #14230915 - 04/03/11 12:07 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

.
Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:


The rich would get much, much richer and the poor would get completely screwed.  Currently, the rich pay almost the entire tax burden while the poor pay nothing, and in many cases actually make money.




This is absolutly false, the middle class is the one getting ripped off in all societies, in fact, the people on welfare and the parasitical speculating rich folk have alot in common when it comes to values.





mind backing this one up

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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14234811 - 04/04/11 04:51 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:


The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.




Boohoo?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #14234814 - 04/04/11 04:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

aren't we all jsut looking to have fair and equal share?

but o, of what though? seriously, i am asking. anyone?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14235516 - 04/04/11 10:28 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
aren't we all jsut looking to have fair and equal share?

but o, of what though? seriously, i am asking. anyone?



Equal share?  No.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #14235644 - 04/04/11 11:11 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Apollyphelion said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.




Boohoo?




Seems that if the rich are paying more taxes, then they should get more votes in public elections.  Perhaps we should weight public votes for elected officials based upon how much tax a person paid into the system.  The more you pay in taxes, the more your vote counts.  Fair is fair, yes?  ... and for all those that don't pay any tax, thus get no representation- Boohoo.


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InvisibleApollyphelion
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Seuss]
    #14235667 - 04/04/11 11:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Quote:

Apollyphelion said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.




Boohoo?




Seems that if the rich are paying more taxes, then they should get more votes in public elections.  Perhaps we should weight public votes for elected officials based upon how much tax a person paid into the system.  The more you pay in taxes, the more your vote counts.  Fair is fair, yes?  ... and for all those that don't pay any tax, thus get no representation- Boohoo.




I could live with that.


--------------------

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Invisiblescrantonstrangler
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Seuss]
    #14235675 - 04/04/11 11:20 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You will do two things in your life. Pay Taxes, And Die. That being said if everyone payed the same taxes, the poor would be poorer and the rich would be richer. It would have to be based on a percent of income. Like a flat 5 percent. Anyhwo, it dont matter. The rich know how to hide thier money anyways. Itl never work, the poor just have to except that the rich will never help them. Besides, if they did make a flat fee for taxes, the rich would just find a loop hole, or say they gave enought to charity they dont gota pay.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: Seuss]
    #14235693 - 04/04/11 11:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Seems that if the rich are paying more taxes, then they should get more votes in public elections.  Perhaps we should weight public votes for elected officials based upon how much tax a person paid into the system.  The more you pay in taxes, the more your vote counts.  Fair is fair, yes?  ... and for all those that don't pay any tax, thus get no representation




I can get behind that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14236148 - 04/04/11 01:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
aren't we all jsut looking to have fair and equal share?

but o, of what though? seriously, i am asking. anyone?



Equal share?  No.



yeah, i know, fuck that shit. i wanna have unequal shares... so that it isn't even shared anymore! yeh, FUCK sharing. :emo:

Edited by akira_akuma (04/04/11 01:37 PM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14236193 - 04/04/11 01:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
aren't we all jsut looking to have fair and equal share?

but o, of what though? seriously, i am asking. anyone?



Equal share?  No.



yeah, i know, fuck that shit. i wanna have unequal shares... so that it isn't even shared anymore! yeh, FUCK sharing. :emo:



When your Mom comes into the room and takes half your toys and gives them to another kid are you sharing?  No, you are not.


Why should somebody who never did anything in his life get anything from me?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14236207 - 04/04/11 01:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

mom can suck my balls. nobody should bother giving anyone anything unless it has some correlation with THEM. when brothers don't share it's because they are dumb young pieces of shit... not because they are trying to make unequal shares to control one anothers access to toys. not because one loves the toy so much, just only vying for control.
tl/dr?
oh well... i agree with you but i don't buy that this is fair or right. taxation is a huge forgary. you can give me reason why it wroks and how it can work for anybody, but it doesn't tell me why the monetary system is a primary focus of human policies and why people live in poverty, if this so called "system" really works.


what the kinks just haven't been fixed yet?
really, i am curious... i've hated politics for a long time... i ignored it's understanding for the longest time... thought it was all bullshit that would just lead to deadends... turns out, most of the time it does but maybe that's just me... maybe i ain't seeing what i could "change"?

:smirk: what could i change to help this system?

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #14244239 - 04/05/11 08:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.




But in the last 30 years, the money share of the rich 1% has increased drastically. the middle class is slowly in the process of destruction and morphing in with the low class.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: communeart]
    #14246855 - 04/06/11 10:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.




But in the last 30 years, the money share of the rich 1% has increased drastically. the middle class is slowly in the process of destruction and morphing in with the low class.



The income share of the rich is not as much as their tax share by a long shot.  We disproportionately suck the money of the rich here even more than Europe does.

The middle class is not disappearing but it is becoming more dependent on the wealthy


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: communeart]
    #14247054 - 04/06/11 11:52 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

The richest 1% already pays a grotesque share (40% or so) of the taxes.  The bottom 50% pays virtually nothing.




But in the last 30 years, the money share of the rich 1% has increased drastically.




So what?  You posture this reply as if it is a caveat or exception, but I'm unclear how- or even what the point is.  Are you implying there's something bad about this?  How do you justify such a claim, if so.

What is "increased drastically", exactly?  I'm not quite sure what you're saying.  It seems to be implying that the rich somehow have wealth at the expense of others, though such premise is not supported.





the middle class is slowly in the process of destruction and morphing in with the low class.




If you say so, then it must be true, I guess.  What is your basis for making this claim and what grounds do you have to assert such?  What are you defining the classes to be?  It would seem a strange defiition that would see a middle class disapear, given the term's arbitrary definition that's relative to the other classes.  Seems like you must be using a strange definition of "middle class" to claim it is being destroyed.

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: What if we made it law that all taxes had to be equal for all people regardless of income? [Re: johnm214]
    #14269195 - 04/10/11 08:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Coaster said:
GE actually claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion

theres a name for ya :smirk:




What does "claimed tax benefit" mean?  What are you asserting and how does that relate to your claims?

Ignoring the fact that GE isn't a person, rich or poor, and that their income is therefore of unclear relevance to your claims, I fail to see how this supports your premise that the US operates so as to wrongly "give tax breaks to the rich while the lower class is hurtin".

GE's claimed "$3.2 billion benefit" is presumably calculated relative to what they would have paid had they taken no deductions for business expenses and legislated tax credits, deductions, yes?  Your calculus simply presume the highest level tax rate (amongst the highest in the world) is somehow just by default and that any departure from that is an unjust handout.  Plainly: your argument fails as you've not even clearly stated what you are claiming GE did, let alone how that supports you similarly unclear claim.

Your position is even more difficult to understand given your frequent evangelism for alternative energy research and investment, claiming companies should get huge tax breaks, even paying nothing at all, if they invest in such technologies

Quote:

Coaster said:
if we invested in clean energy it would b cheaper than coal
and we need to tax what we burn not what we earn



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8919161#8919161

How, then, are you criticizing this exact practice which allowed GE to get tax credits/writeoffs for its alternative energy investments?  Its endorsements like yours that have motivated the politicians to create these programs- what right do you have to now because you got just a taste of what you asked for?

Quote:

A review of company filings and Congressional records shows that one of the most striking advantages of General Electric is its ability to lobby for, win and take advantage of tax breaks.

Over the last decade, G.E. has spent tens of millions of dollars to push for changes in tax law, from more generous depreciation schedules on jet engines to “green energy” credits for its wind turbines. But the most lucrative of these measures allows G.E. to operate a vast leasing and lending business abroad with profits that face little foreign taxes and no American taxes as long as the money remains overseas.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110329/bs_nm/us_ge

Do you know what you want?

It sure doesn't seem so.


BTW. as Seuss mentions, your endorsement of Obama and radical tax cuts for "green energy" is even more difficult to reconcile with your criticism of GE's tax practices and lobbying efforts, given the Obama administration's facilitation of such:

Quote:

Even as the government faces a mounting budget deficit, the talk in Washington is about lower rates. President Obama has said he is considering an overhaul of the corporate tax system, with an eye to lowering the top rate, ending some tax subsidies and loopholes and generating the same amount of revenue. He has designated G.E.’s chief executive, Jeffrey R. Immelt, as his liaison to the business community and as the chairman of the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, and it is expected to discuss corporate taxes.



Id

I ask again:  Do you know what you want?



ok well i was just thinking that instead of giving GE a tax break to make clean energy they should have taxed them and then subsidized the clean energy costs for the consumer, its so easyyy they are so backwards arggggggggg


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