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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14190656 - 03/27/11 05:39 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BrainFood said:
They admitted levels 10 million times the safe limit.




In the coolant in the turbine, yes. It was to be expected, given the extensive damage to the fuel rods. This has no immediate consequences outside the plant. The tricky bit will be to safely extract and store the radioactive water and preferably prevent it from seeping into the ocean.

Quote:

masterfluffypants said:
Thanks for the update. So they didnt end up burying the reactors like they said they were going to do?



They probably will, but they haven't done that yet. Tepco never said they would definitely to this btw. They kept (and still keep) the option open if all else fails.

Quote:

linkamathingy said:
what do you think of this link guys?
[url= http://www.woweather.com/daten/weathernews/fukushima/docs/Japan2011-03-25_E.pdf url]



The measurement grid used to check if no nuclear testing has taken place around the globe seems to work and appears to be sensitive to even small concentrations, even though the resolution of the grid (with only 60 stations worldwide) is very limited and easily surpassed by national measurement grids. It also suggests that models used to calculate dispersion by ZAMG, supposedly based on the limited data of those 60 stations, are apparently quite accurate, although we basically have to take the author's word for it, as it is difficult to provide a real foundation to that statement. What the pdf doesn't say and in itself isn't useful for is to assess any health risks related to the contamination that is measured. So the academic/organizational relevance of the document is significantly larger than its environmental or epidemiological relevance.

Edited by koraks (03/27/11 06:14 AM)

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Offlinex Ju x
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14193531 - 03/27/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I was just watching Cnn, and apparently there was another 6.5 earthquake, and there's another Tsunami advisory?


http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/27/japan.tsunami.advisory/index.html?hpt=T2


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Offlinehenk600
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: x Ju x]
    #14208055 - 03/30/11 07:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I readed they have the plan to dismantle reactor 1,2,3 and 4.
What happens to reactor 5 and 6 is not real clear now.
But this will take time........

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-30/tokyo-electric-s-damaged-reactors-may-take-30-years-12-billion-to-scrap.html

Tokyo Electric's Damaged Reactors May Take 30 Years, $12 Billion to Scrap
By Shigeru Sato, Yuji Okada and Tsuyoshi Inajima -
Tepco’s Damaged Reactors Take 30 Years, $12 Billion Scrap

Damaged reactors at the crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant may take three decades to decommission and cost operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. more than 1 trillion yen ($12 billion), engineers and analysts said. Source: Tokyo Electric Power Co. via Bloomberg

Damaged reactors at the crippled Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant may take three decades to decommission and cost operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. more than 1 trillion yen ($12 billion), engineers and analysts said.

Four of the plant’s six reactors became useless when sea water was used to cool them after the March 11 earthquake and tsunami knocked out generators running its cooling systems. The reactors need to be decommissioned, Tepco Chairman Tsunehisa Katsumata said today. He couldn’t give a timeframe.

All the reactors, including Units 5 and 6, will be shut down, and the government hasn’t ruled out sealing the plant in concrete, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters today in Tokyo.

The damaged reactors need to be demolished after they have cooled and radioactive materials are removed and stored, said Tomoko Murakami, a nuclear researcher at the Institute of Energy Economics, Japan. The process will take longer than the 12 years needed to decommission the Three Mile Island reactor in Pennsylvania following a partial meltdown, said Hironobu Unesaki, a nuclear engineering professor at Kyoto University.

“Lack of public support may force the decommissioning of all six reactors,” said Daniel Aldrich, a political science professor at Purdue University in Indiana. Tepco “will try to salvage two if it can find public support, which may be unlikely.”

The damaged reactors will take more than a few weeks to stabilize, Katsumata, who took charge of Tepco’s response after President Masataka Shimizu was hospitalized, told reporters.
Kan’s Criticism

Prime Minister Naoto Kan yesterday blamed inadequate tsunami defenses at the plant for the world’s worst nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986, saying that the safety standards set by Tepco were too low. Efforts to cool fuel rods at the four reactors have been hindered by detection of radiation levels that can prove fatal for a person exposed for several hours.

The utility is focusing on bringing the crisis at the Fukushima Dai-Ichi plant under control and can’t comment on the power station’s future, Naoyuki Matsumoto, a spokesman for Tepco, said by telephone yesterday.

Japan is studying various ways to cool water at the plant’s reactors and fuel-rod ponds, Chief Cabinet Secretary Edano said. It will take “considerable time” until the temperature drops and is stable, he said.

Covering the plant with fabric and removing contaminated water to a tanker are among options under consideration for reducing the threat from radiation, Edano said.
‘Considering Possibilities’

“Specialists are considering various possibilities and means to contain the nuclear power plant situation and minimize radiation effects in surrounding areas and harm to health,” he said. “We haven’t reached a conclusion about what means are possible or effective.”

Japanese authorities rated the Fukushima accident a 5 on the International Atomic Energy Agency’s 7-step scale for nuclear incidents, under which each extra point represents a 10- fold increase in seriousness.

At Pennsylvania’s Three Mile Island in 1979, one reactor partially melted in the worst U.S. accident, earning a 5 rating. Its $973 million repair and cleanup took almost 12 years to complete, according to a report on the World Nuclear Association’s website. More than 1,000 workers were involved in designing and conducting the cleanup operation, the report said.
Chernobyl Sarcophagus

Ukraine is unable to fund alone the cost of a new sarcophagus to cover the burned out reactor at Chernobyl, due to be in place by 2014. The 110 meter-high arched containment structure has a 1.55 billion euro ($2.2 billion) total price tag and the London-based European Bank for Reconstruction and Development has so far raised about 65 percent of that.

The Fukushima reactors may take about three decades to decommission, based on Japan’s sole attempt to dismantle a commercial reactor, said Murakami of the Institute of Energy Economics.

Japan Atomic Power Co. began decommissioning a 166-megawatt reactor at Tokai in Ibaraki Prefecture near Tokyo in 1998 after the unit had completed 32 years of operations, according to documents posted on the company’s website. The project will be completed by March 2021, or after 23 years of work, and cost 88.5 billion yen, the documents show.

Japan Atomic took three years through June 2001 to stabilize and remove nuclear fuels from the reactor core.

“It looks indisputable that Tepco will go ahead and dismantle the four reactors, and costs may exceed 1 trillion yen,” said Murakami, who worked at Japan Atomic for 13 years and was involved in the decommissioning of the Tokai plant. “Removing damaged fuels from the reactors may take more than two years, and any delays would further increase the cost.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Shigeru Sato in Tokyo at ssato10@bloomberg.net; Yuji Okada in Tokyo at yokada6@bloomberg.net; Tsuyoshi Inajima in Tokyo at tinajima@bloomberg.net


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Invisiblelinkamathingy
Aspiring Mycologist


Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 1,235
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: henk600]
    #14213086 - 03/31/11 02:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)



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SCIENCE!!!
If NIST didn't even investigate whether explosives were used, how can we trust their investigation? It's a rule whenever explosions are heard.
Though I Laugh
EyegasmArt.com
anonymous: without name
Anonymous: a group with a name
don't be fooled, have a revolution on your own terms.

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Offlinehenk600
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: linkamathingy]
    #14214617 - 03/31/11 12:31 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

See what the europian union decided:
For the whole EU.

http://foodwatch.de/kampagnen__themen/radioaktivitaet/lebensmittel_importe/index_ger.html

English online translation:

By Emergency Ordinance, the EU has declared for imported food from Japan exceptionally high limits. Although there is currently no cause for concern over contaminated products - this does not justify the lack of information policy of the federal government nor the lower limits.


While Japan is suffering from the devastating consequences of the Chernobyl disaster, in Germany many people wonder whether food imported from Japan are safe. One reason for concern over radioactive contaminated foods currently exists. Germany imported only very few foods from Japan, and in any case, the export of the disaster region virtually ceased.

Limits as in nuclear emergency

Federal Consumer Protection Minister Ilse Aigner stressed that since the disaster attack 'enhanced control measures "and" special protection standards "- conceals the same time, however, that apply in the affected areas in the EU imported food again exceptionally high limits. The public was not informed of this step. For certain products were at the weekend EU-wide up to 20 times higher limit values ​​in force when this is set out in EU Regulation 733/2008. There are food and food imports from cesium-134 and 137 typically limits of 370 becquerels per kilogram for infant formula and milk products and 600 Bq / kg for other foods.

With the new Emergency Ordinance 297/2011, the European Commission on 27 March 2011 these limits for products from the affected Japanese regions increased significantly: up to 400 becquerels per kilogram for infant formula, to 1000 Bq / kg for milk products and to 1250 Bq / kg for other foods. Certain products such as fish oil or spices may even exceed this value by ten times, so be contaminated with up to 12,500 becquerels per kilogram - a 20-times the previous limit.

No nuclear emergency in Europe

The new regulation is based on the EU Regulation (EC) No 178/2002. Background for the increase is ultimately after the Chernobyl disaster in 1987 adopted Regulation 3954/1987 EURATOM. Accordingly, in the event of a "nuclear emergency" limits on the permissible level of radioactive contamination of food are put into effect, well above the otherwise valid values ​​in order to prevent a food shortage. However, there are in Europe or a nuclear emergency, or shortages of food. Therefore, imports from Japan are much too small.

Raising the limits for cesium 134 and cesium 137, which is associated with the reference to the EURATOM Regulation, is therefore quite incomprehensible. The right step to gain the trust of the citizens would be a complete import ban from the regions concerned, as it has already imposed other states, including the United States. This is in accordance with Article 53 paragraph (1) point b) i) possible for consumer health protection relevant EU Regulation 178/2002.

The EU regulation pdf file:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:201:0001:0001:EN:PDF


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Invisiblethoughts
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: henk600]
    #14214642 - 03/31/11 12:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Man, Japan just keeps going through shitstorm after shitstorm.:feelsbadman:


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I need Jesus.

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OfflineIdiot
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: henk600]
    #14215052 - 03/31/11 02:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Whoever wrote that is horrible at grammar.


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Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Idiot]
    #14215065 - 03/31/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Idiot said:
Whoever wrote that is horrible at grammar.



I bet it's Google TranslateTM

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14215076 - 03/31/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Does the nuclear crisis mean that Japan will be shut off as a zone of exclusion? I would imagine that there wouldnt be anywhere to live in japan. Its not a very big country at all


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"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14215081 - 03/31/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It's a lot bigger than you think. The current 20km exclusion zone covers about 0.17% of Japan.

Edited by koraks (03/31/11 02:24 PM)

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14215098 - 03/31/11 02:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well how big was the Chernobyl zone of alienation?


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14215128 - 03/31/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

masterfluffypants said:
Well how big was the Chernobyl zone of alienation?



Even now, you can't compare Fukushima with Chernobyl in terms of contamination. The Chernobyl exclusion zone has a radius of 30km. If this were implemented in Japan (not altogether unlikely, due to lower acceptance of contamination risks in Japan vs. Ukraine), it would cover about 0.35% of Japan.

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Offlinemasterfluffypants
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14215152 - 03/31/11 02:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Oh okay.  That makes sense.  They need to shut down californias nuclear plants.  Especially because theyre predicting a massive earthquake here, and i think the main reactors here are built next to the fault line.


--------------------
"You ever have that feeling where you're not sure if you're awake or still dreaming?"

"Mmm...All the time. It's called mescaline, it's the only way to fly."

:peyote: :sanpedro:    :sanpedro: :peyote:

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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14215196 - 03/31/11 02:40 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

They say radiation is beening found in NW milk...No more then what an cell phone gives off...:nonono:


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:Awesketch:

:cool: Fair is Fair :devil:

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: masterfluffypants]
    #14215242 - 03/31/11 02:46 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not sure if I'd be very worried about that, but yeah, anything along the Californian coastline is automatically more or less on top of the San Andreas fault. There's four operational reactors in the state that you could worry about, with units 2 and 3 at San Onofre the ones I'd personally be wary of the most. The ones at Diablo Canyon are from the mid-eighties and can be expected to be better capable of dealing with large disruptions, although you can never be sure. All four operational reactors are of the PWR type and are inherently safer than the BWR reactors at Fukushima due to the presence of an extra intermediate coolant loop. Actual quake resistance depends on a lot of factors though, and I don't know the exact construction of these plants. The reactors are San Onofre are apparently designed to withstand a 7.0m quake, which is roughly in the same ballpark as the 7.2m design limit of the Fukushima reactors. Note that this design limit turned out not to be the biggest problem at Fukushima; it was the fact that the diesel generators were located in a vault that was not designed to cope with the huge tsunami. Given the location of the plant, I think that can be considered as a very serious architectural flaw.

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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,691
Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: Brainiac]
    #14215261 - 03/31/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Brainiac said:
They say radiation is beening found in NW milk...No more then what an cell phone gives off...:nonono:



I always find the comparison between ionizing radiation ('radioactivity') and RF/electromagnetic 'radiation' (radio transmitters and magnetron tubes; cellphones, microwaves, wifi) to be very misleading. While the former is known to be hazardous, the latter has no proven health effects at all except for extremely high power levels (which will cook you, but not cause cancer).

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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: koraks]
    #14215346 - 03/31/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Brainiac said:
They say radiation is beening found in NW milk...No more then what an cell phone gives off...:nonono:



I always find the comparison between ionizing radiation ('radioactivity') and RF/electromagnetic 'radiation' (radio transmitters and magnetron tubes; cellphones, microwaves, wifi) to be very misleading. While the former is known to be hazardous, the latter has no proven health effects at all except for extremely high power levels (which will cook you, but not cause cancer).



I don't understand why so many people talk about cell phone radiation being dangerous. You make a good point about it not being very energetic. Surely red light or whatever is far more powerful than a bunch of radiowaves. But why is there so much :tinfoil: material around cell phones?


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InvisibleP-O
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: mellowparty]
    #14215964 - 03/31/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)


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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: P-O]
    #14216065 - 03/31/11 05:33 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

dude, what the shit? :tinfoil:


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Re: Magnitude 8.8 Earthquake Hits Japan. [Re: mellowparty]
    #14216317 - 03/31/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)



--------------------
We were sent to hell for eternity :hellfire: Ø:omgawesome:h®
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