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Offline5150
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14th amendment
    #14206326 - 03/29/11 09:43 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

(Newser) – A "birth tourism" center uncovered by officials in Los Angeles County has given fresh ammunition to people calling for a change to the 14th Amendment, which grants automatic citizenship to every baby born in the US. Officials say they discovered that three connected townhouses were being used as a maternity center for well-off women who traveled from China to give birth to babies, which provided the newborns with automatic American citizenship, the New York Times reports.

The center was shut down for building code violations, but officials believe many more exist, and US "maternity packages" are widely advertised in countries including China, Mexico, and South Korea. "These people aren’t doing anything in violation of our laws,” said the director of the Center for Immigration Studies. “But if anything, it is worse than illegal immigrants delivering a baby here. Those kids are socialized as Americans. This phenomenon of coming to the US and then leaving with people who have unlimited access to come back is just ridiculous.”


call your reps. and the aliens , things need to change


--------------------
"the way of the warrior is the resolute acceptance of death"

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OfflineJT
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: 5150]
    #14208727 - 03/30/11 10:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah...kind of a dangerous trend if they are leaving shortly after birth. If the parents continue to live in the US that's one thing, but if they don't payany taxes they shouldn't be entitled to the services our tax money provides. I think there should be a living requirement or one parent citizen rule.

Then again, I also wonder how prolific this actually is. Maybe 1000 people a year? It's not going to make a huge difference.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: JT]
    #14208831 - 03/30/11 10:51 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It actually is a violation of the rules, if not the laws.  If ICE knows you're pregnant when you enter the country on a tourist visa, they'll turn you away.

That said, I still don't have a problem with it.  The US needs immigrants and if those people return when they're 18 for school and jobs, then so be it.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14208860 - 03/30/11 10:55 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It actually is a violation of the rules, if not the laws.  If ICE knows you're pregnant when you enter the country on a tourist visa, they'll turn you away.

That said, I still don't have a problem with it.  The US needs immigrants and if those people return when they're 18 for school and jobs, then so be it.



The US needs immigrants who are willing to obey US law.  That's it.  The rest can go fuck off.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14208892 - 03/30/11 11:03 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.

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OfflineAjaxx
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14208907 - 03/30/11 11:06 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.



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OfflineMelloRed
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Ajaxx]
    #14208966 - 03/30/11 11:18 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I do think we should change the amendment.  The child should only become a US citizen if one of the biological parents is either a US citizen or legal immigrant.  We may need more immigrants(that's debatable), but we shouldn't just let everyone in.  We need highly skilled immigrants, not ones for unskilled labor.

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OfflineMelloRed
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14208969 - 03/30/11 11:19 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It actually is a violation of the rules, if not the laws.  If ICE knows you're pregnant when you enter the country on a tourist visa, they'll turn you away.

That said, I still don't have a problem with it.  The US needs immigrants and if those people return when they're 18 for school and jobs, then so be it.



The US needs immigrants who are willing to obey US law.  That's it.  The rest can go fuck off.




Funny response on this forum.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14209006 - 03/30/11 11:27 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.





it's in the news every day about an illegal alien committing rape, robbery,
kidnapping, manufacture or distribution of meth, murder, and dozens of other
crimes, are women that come here just to have a kid immigrants? no,
immigrants come here through legal channels, submit to background checks,
health screens and earnestly wish to live here

and as you even stated

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It actually is a violation of the rules, if not the laws.  If ICE knows you're pregnant when you enter the country on a tourist visa, they'll turn you away.

That said, I still don't have a problem with it.  The US needs immigrants and if those people return when they're 18 for school and jobs, then so be it.




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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14209030 - 03/30/11 11:31 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.





it's in the news every day about an illegal alien committing rape, robbery,
kidnapping, manufacture or distribution of meth, murder, and dozens of other
crimes, are women that come here just to have a kid immigrants? no,
immigrants come here through legal channels, submit to background checks,
health screens and earnestly wish to live here





I'm not sure what your point is.

Quote:


and as you even stated

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
It actually is a violation of the rules, if not the laws.  If ICE knows you're pregnant when you enter the country on a tourist visa, they'll turn you away.

That said, I still don't have a problem with it.  The US needs immigrants and if those people return when they're 18 for school and jobs, then so be it.








Yeah, I did say that.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14209033 - 03/30/11 11:32 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.



Every single person who jumps the border is violating the law.  Every.  Single.  One.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14209040 - 03/30/11 11:33 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.



Every single person who jumps the border is violating the law.  Every.  Single.  One.




And what does that have to do with the topic of this thread?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14209245 - 03/30/11 12:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Sure.  Demonstrate that any of those people aren't law-abiding.



Every single person who jumps the border is violating the law.  Every.  Single.  One.




And what does that have to do with the topic of this thread?



You said we need immigrants.  I said we need only immigrants who obey US law.  You made a general statement about immigrants.  I made a general response.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14209939 - 03/30/11 02:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I know plenty of illegal immigrants who work hard, put their children through school, and improve the country.

I know plenty of legal immigrants who don't work, don't take care of their children, and are a drain on the country.

The immigration system is flawed.

If they are here, working, and contributing to society, they should be citizens regardless of how they came to be here.  When and how they entered the country is infinitely less important to me than what they are doing now that they are here.

It's a safe bet that anyone posting on this particular website has seen fit to break the law on occasion.  Excoriating others for breaking a law that they find onerous in pursuit of a better life whilst being a member of a site that helps others to break laws that they find onerous in pursuit of happiness is a bit hypocritical.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14210503 - 03/30/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I know plenty of illegal immigrants who work hard, put their children through school, and improve the country.




I know many illegal immigrants that come here, work hard for cash without
paying anything more than sales tax, send money back to where ever and
then when they're done, they retire to guatamalla, honduras, mexico on all
the money they earned here, while they're here not paying income taxes
they're fucking people credit by using illegally obtained SSNs to get
utilities and even loans, those that use them in payrolled jobs fuck the
citizens on the tax burden, some even to the point of prosecution, they
hit the ER for every little ailment because they know they wont have to
pay it, for them it's already free health care, in the mean time my
property taxes are paying for the education of their children


what portion of their money is going to pay for the education of my
children when most are working for cash and dont own property

if the 27million illegals in this country were not here today where would
our unemployment rate be and to answer the question before it's asked of
"who would make my burrito?" a US citizen or legal resident alien



Quote:

The immigration system is flawed.






the illegal immigration system works pretty well for the illegals, hows
the system flawed exactly other than the fact that immigration laws arent
enforced


Quote:

If they are here, working, and contributing to society, they should be citizens regardless of how they came to be here.  When and how they entered the country is infinitely less important to me than what they are doing now that they are here.




contributing? how exactly are they contributing?

Quote:

It's a safe bet that anyone posting on this particular website has seen fit to break the law on occasion




so you want to excuse them breaking the law because others break the law

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #14210542 - 03/30/11 04:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
I know plenty of illegal immigrants who work hard, put their children through school, and improve the country.




I don't.  I don't know any.  The illegal immigrants I know, Polish, are fucking us quite hard.  They don't contribute anywhere close to what they consume.  In fact, they don't pay shit in taxes.  None of them is above the 50th percentile and most of them work for cash only.
Quote:



I know plenty of legal immigrants who don't work, don't take care of their children, and are a drain on the country.




I don't.  I don't know any.  (amended.  Obama's aunt, an illegal border crashing parasite on public assistance for decades was made legal by fiat)
Quote:



The immigration system is flawed.




No shit.
Quote:



If they are here, working, and contributing to society, they should be citizens regardless of how they came to be here.  When and how they entered the country is infinitely less important to me than what they are doing now that they are here.




There is no way any illegal immigrant should be granted citizenship.  They have already expressed no desire to adhere to our laws.
Quote:



It's a safe bet that anyone posting on this particular website has seen fit to break the law on occasion.  Excoriating others for breaking a law that they find onerous in pursuit of a better life whilst being a member of a site that helps others to break laws that they find onerous in pursuit of happiness is a bit hypocritical.




Nope.  Anybody born here does not have to prove fealty.  Anybody who wants to come here must.  Or do you think we should have totally open borders with any jackass who wants to being a citizen and voting?  No fucking thank you.


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14212603 - 03/30/11 11:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I know many illegal immigrants that come here, work hard for cash without paying anything more than sales tax,



Most illegal immigrants I know (and companies that hire them) use false SSN numbers.  Because you can't file for a tax return, but the company still withholds taxes they actually pay a lot more in taxes.  Even the ones that work for cash, probably don't pay that much less in income tax as similarly paid residents because as Zappa is fond of saying the bottom rung doesn't pay shit.  Most cash jobs I know of pay shit.

Quote:

send money back to where ever and then when they're done, they retire to Guatemala, Honduras, mexico on all the money they earned here



First, they did work for it, it is their money to do with what they wish.

Second, I seriously doubt that anyone is retiring on a $10 an hour cash job.  And if they are then I plan on retiring to Guatemala, Honduras, or mexico some time the middle of next month.


Quote:

they're fucking people credit by using illegally obtained SSNs to get utilities and even loans




There are far more actual citizens doing this then illegal ones.  I think it is odd how it is "news" when an illegal immigrant steals someones credit, but just another criminal case when a citizen does it.

Quote:

they hit the ER for every little ailment because they know they wont have to pay it,




If they are, I haven't seen any at the clinic I go to.

Quote:

in the mean time my property taxes are paying for the education of their children




Your taxes pay for a lot of other people's kids to go to school.  And of course illegal immigrants pay property taxes.  If they rent part of that rent is going to pay property taxes, and no landlord I know of would set rent on a place below what they pay in property taxes. 

If we are going to change our immigration policy, the 14th amendment is a bad place to start.  I might agree with you if parents were allowed to stay just because they had a baby here (probably not but maybe), however since the only thing gained is that the child has citizenship, which means they can actually move back (maybe if documentation is kept) then they will probably not be working some dead end, cash job, and be able to actually develop equity in the society without the risk of losing everything they have worked for.  IE, be a productive regular member of society.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14214014 - 03/31/11 09:54 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Quote:

I know many illegal immigrants that come here, work hard for cash without paying anything more than sales tax,



Most illegal immigrants I know (and companies that hire them) use false SSN numbers.  Because you can't file for a tax return, but the company still withholds taxes they actually pay a lot more in taxes.




False.  Most people are aware that you are supposed to claim the proper number of deductions so that you neither owe nor are due a refund.  Even cheaters can do this.
Quote:

Even the ones that work for cash, probably don't pay that much less in income tax as similarly paid residents because as Zappa is fond of saying the bottom rung doesn't pay shit.  Most cash jobs I know of pay shit.




Around here the going rate for a day laborer is $100 cash for an 8 hour day, plus lunch plus transportation to and from.  Totally legit people would probably have to make almost $20 an hour to match that after tax income.
Quote:




Quote:

send money back to where ever and then when they're done, they retire to Guatemala, Honduras, mexico on all the money they earned here



First, they did work for it, it is their money to do with what they wish.




So I guess Madoff should have kept his money?  Drug dealers?  Profit from a criminal enterprise is forfeit.
Quote:



Second, I seriously doubt that anyone is retiring on a $10 an hour cash job.  And if they are then I plan on retiring to Guatemala, Honduras, or mexico some time the middle of next month.




You probably could.
Quote:




Quote:

they're fucking people credit by using illegally obtained SSNs to get utilities and even loans




There are far more actual citizens doing this then illegal ones.  I think it is odd how it is "news" when an illegal immigrant steals someones credit, but just another criminal case when a citizen does it.




Bullshit.  It is always news when anybody does it but it is especially galling when illegal immigrants do it because THEY SHOULDN'T BE HERE AT ALL IF THE FEDERAL FUCKING GOVERNMENT WOULD DO IT'S COCKSUCKING JOB AND KEEP THEM OUT!
Quote:



Quote:

they hit the ER for every little ailment because they know they wont have to pay it,




If they are, I haven't seen any at the clinic I go to.




Clinics can tell them to fuck off.  ERs can't.  That's why they don't go to your clinic.  Duh.
Quote:



Quote:

in the mean time my property taxes are paying for the education of their children




Your taxes pay for a lot of other people's kids to go to school.  And of course illegal immigrants pay property taxes.  If they rent part of that rent is going to pay property taxes, and no landlord I know of would set rent on a place below what they pay in property taxes.




They tend to disproportionately be of child bearing age and to rent cheap places that don't come anywhere near paying par value taxes for what they receive as benefit for thier illegal snotnoses.
Quote:

 

If we are going to change our immigration policy, the 14th amendment is a bad place to start.  I might agree with you if parents were allowed to stay just because they had a baby here (probably not but maybe), however since the only thing gained is that the child has citizenship, which means they can actually move back (maybe if documentation is kept) then they will probably not be working some dead end, cash job, and be able to actually develop equity in the society without the risk of losing everything they have worked for.  IE, be a productive regular member of society.




They are law breaking criminals who have already proven they have no respect for our laws.  OUT!  Their presence deflates wages for every US citizen in the industries that are infested with them.  They are a pernicious evil and a drain on American citizens.  Their economic value doesn't come anywhere close to offsetting their economic cost.  Not by a longshot.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Smackshadow]
    #14214110 - 03/31/11 10:21 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Quote:

I know many illegal immigrants that come here, work hard for cash without paying anything more than sales tax,



Most illegal immigrants I know (and companies that hire them) use false SSN numbers. Even the ones that work for cash, probably don't pay that much less in income tax as similarly paid residents because as Zappa is fond of saying the bottom rung doesn't pay shit




cant use a fake SSN, the IRS rejects it. they have to use a real SSN and
that fucks peoples taxes up, if they're drawing unemployment or government
aid it fucks them even worse

if someone is being paid cash, how exactly are they paying income tax?



Quote:

Quote:

send money back to where ever and then when they're done, they retire to Guatemala, Honduras, mexico on all the money they earned here



First, they did work for it, it is their money to do with what they wish.

Second, I seriously doubt that anyone is retiring on a $10 an hour cash job.  And if they are then I plan on retiring to Guatemala, Honduras, or mexico some time the middle of next month.




good luck with that, mexico looks down on illegal immigration but consider
that you have 10 adults splitting a $600/mo apartment, it allows that
$10/hr to stretch much further


Quote:

Quote:

they're fucking people credit by using illegally obtained SSNs to get utilities and even loans



There are far more actual citizens doing this then illegal ones.  I think it is odd how it is "news" when an illegal immigrant steals someones credit, but just another criminal case when a citizen does it.




really because I seldom ever see identity theft cases in the news, they
used to be common and the only one that really get reported are those that
are big, like the woman in texas who's SSN is being used by nearly 100
illegals but regardless of who is doing it, it's a crime and typically
citizens doing it are prosecuted while illegals are not

Quote:

Quote:

they hit the ER for every little ailment because they know they wont have to pay it,




If they are, I haven't seen any at the clinic I go to.




they're at the county health department here but as I stated, the
emergency room, not clinic

it's not hard to find the half million news stories about it


http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/health_care.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,534502,00.html

Quote:

Quote:

in the mean time my property taxes are paying for the education of their children




Your taxes pay for a lot of other people's kids to go to school.  And of course illegal immigrants pay property taxes.  If they rent part of that rent is going to pay property taxes, and no landlord I know of would set rent on a place below what they pay in property taxes.




if several families are staying in a single family dwelling, how is their
burden even remotely close to that which I pay, they dont pay several
times the rent, they dont pay the property taxes at 5 times the amount, it
allows for them to abuse the system especially given that many as was
mentioned are working under the table 

Quote:

If we are going to change our immigration policy, the 14th amendment is a bad place to start.  I might agree with you if parents were allowed to stay just because they had a baby here (probably not but maybe), however since the only thing gained is that the child has citizenship, which means they can actually move back (maybe if documentation is kept) then they will probably not be working some dead end, cash job, and be able to actually develop equity in the society without the risk of losing everything they have worked for.  IE, be a productive regular member of society.





never heard the term 'anchor baby', immigration doesnt deport the parents
of anchor babies, the state gives the family funds to support the children
and often times enough to support the rest of the family since as has been
mentioned they work for cash and dont even get a 1099 and it's a pretty
well known fact that the US is doing little to deport illegals unless
they've committed a crime and even then it's usually not the case since
they're cutting hundred loose every day
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100909fed_red_tape_eyed_in_bloodbath_suspect_free_while_facing_deport_hearing/srvc=home&position=also

nearly 10% of the children born in the US are to illegal immigrants while
the dult illegal population only constitutes 4% of the adults in the US,
the burden to tax payers is is in the billions

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1696/unauthorized-immigrants-babies-born-united-states-citizens
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/19/welfare-tab-children-illegal-immigrants-estimated-m-la-county/
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/he98030.pdf

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14215759 - 03/31/11 04:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
never heard the term 'anchor baby', immigration doesnt deport the parents
of anchor babies, the state gives the family funds to support the children
and often times enough to support the rest of the family since as has been
mentioned they work for cash and dont even get a 1099 and it's a pretty
well known fact that the US is doing little to deport illegals unless
they've committed a crime and even then it's usually not the case since
they're cutting hundred loose every day




^^^Sounds like a lot of spin.

Quote:

The term "anchor baby" is a misnomer — it implies that by having a baby in the US, temporary or illegal immigrants can "anchor" themselves in the US. In fact, a US citizen child cannot file for a US visa for that citizen's parents until 21 years of age, and upon reaching that age, the citizen applicant must also be earning at least 125% of the US poverty threshold to be able to apply.[6] Thus, temporary or illegal immigrants who have babies in the US have no means of remaining legally in the US; they must return home and wait at least until the child reaches age 21. Illegal immigrants usually cannot immigrate even after the child turns 21 since they usually face a multi-year or lifetime ban from immigration to the USA, regardless of sponsorship




--Anchor Baby - Wikipedia

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14216817 - 03/31/11 07:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

^^^^^ 
sounds like a lot of spin

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #14218984 - 04/01/11 04:22 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

A fairly good, non-wiki, read on the topic... http://www.cis.org/north/anchor-baby-mechanisms


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Re: 14th amendment [Re: Seuss]
    #14220273 - 04/01/11 11:34 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)


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