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andrewss
precariously aggrandized


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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#14204442 - 03/29/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lahey: Feel that? Randy: Feel what Mister Lahey? Lahey: The way the shit clings to the air Randy? Randy: Shit clings to the air? Lahey: It’s already started my dear good friend. Randy: What’s started? Lahey: The Shit Blizzard.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204471 - 03/29/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: True. There is no point to be made really, things just are. Imply it's meaningless and you are already saying you know something about it.
Here's a couple of zen/nilhism quotes I like.
"Everything is nothing including nothing"
"The paradox is that there is no paradox"
Those bits o' 'wisdom' just show that Zen is the ultimate mental jerk-off. Ever read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'? The whole book attempts to point to something significant, and in the end all you realize that the author is just mentally ill.
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (03/29/11 04:09 PM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Quote:
Those bits o' 'wisdom' just show that Zen is the ultimate mental jerk-off.
How so? It's saying nothing other than the assumption that there is such a thing as ultimate reality and chasing after our dreams of it is what creates the misery. I personally agree. It's the heart of religious thinking, consumerism, groupism, you name it.
Edit: No I haven't read that book but there is a lot of shit zen out there.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (03/29/11 03:59 PM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204599 - 03/29/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I still wanna hear why you disagree with those two quotes. All they are saying is that there is no way to know the nature of reality and any philosophical quest of understanding is futile seeing as the brain is bound to error. Sure science can describe laws that it fits but there's still nothing very certain. Are you claiming you can know reality for sure?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204610 - 03/29/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
there is no way to know the nature of reality
Why is that not sufficient and clear enough? Why must it be cutesy?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Veiling no-brainers within poetry is the intellectually lazy way to sound philosophical and wise.
In this case though, those zen statements are simply meaningless.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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People write books on it because we are programmed to believe we do know all sorts of things and it takes a long time to undo that assumption.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204635 - 03/29/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
...we are programmed to believe we do know all sorts of things...
Speak for yourself. In my youth I was taught that we as the human race didnt know shit. Only after challenging that programming did I realize that we do in fact know all sorts of things.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204638 - 03/29/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah, a whole book is so much clearer than a single concise statement. If only it had pictures and stuff...
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14204651 - 03/29/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Speak for yourself. In my youth I was taught that we as the human race didnt know shit.
Perhaps but it's not so for the vast majority of people. Look at nazi germany for evidence of how fervent belief plays out.
Quote:
that we do in fact know all sorts of things.
Other than basic laws and facts such as "my toe hurts" or "fire burns", what? The point is we know nothing of the nature of reality.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Yeah, a whole book is so much clearer than a single concise statement. If only it had pictures and stuff... 
The point is that if you just read the statement then one can just go "oh, that's true" and then move on with all the certainty they previously had about their beliefs in tact.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204671 - 03/29/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The point is we know nothing of the nature of reality.
Nothing? Not true. We can know part of the nature of reality, and though we will never know it in its bare totality that does not in any way negate that which we do know.
(Also, wtf does nazi germany have to do with this? Nice non-sequitur Mr. Godwin...)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14204682 - 03/29/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
(Also, wtf does nazi germany have to do with this? Nice non-sequitur Mr. Godwin...)
They fervently believed their socio-political reality tunnel, just one example of it but perhaps the clearest.
Quote:
Nothing? Not true. We can know part of the nature of reality, and though we will never know it in its bare totality that does not in any way negate that which we do know.
Example?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204987 - 03/29/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Example?
All of the typical pieces of knowledge that we use on a daily basis. The knowledge that I will feel hungry in a few hours, for example. This is not necessarily the 'true' reality, but it is a window and a glimpse into that which exists in reality. The fact that the bare truth of reality remains hidden from me does not negate this piece of knowledge I have.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14205134 - 03/29/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Those kind of things are basic facts or basic laws, there's nothing there that can go into making a belief system / reality tunnel, it's just the stuff you need to know. Many people base their whole self around a certain belief system (I am so and so a person who is this and has all these friends).
The argument of the kind of zen I know is that the body doesn't care about any of this kind of stuff, it only cares about what is useful for it's survival. The zen system is a method of trying to throw off the influence of that kind of thing, the more you "practice" it the more all your relationships, hopes and dreams burn away, until you are pretty much nothing more than a survival tool. That's the true meaning of detachment IMO.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14206175 - 03/29/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: True. There is no point to be made really, things just are. Imply it's meaningless and you are already saying you know something about it.
Here's a couple of zen/nilhism quotes I like.
"Everything is nothing including nothing"
"The paradox is that there is no paradox"

"The Buddha is dry shit on a stick." - Zen Master Ummon
The point of Zen is not that you can't know the ultimate nature of reality, it's that you don't need to.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14213914 - 03/31/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
andrewss said: i wonder if youre confounding nihilism
it is perhaps best indicated by a biological entity's intention to be absolved from the chains of life
it isn't so much as laziness as it is real degenerative apathy towards health
it is on a continuum, obviously
what is a real nihilist? im not sure...
i wonder if the suicidal are the best examples, but it seems that many of the suicidal are driven to their state by social influences and vanity, perhaps total apathy wouldnt give into those traps

From what I understand, nihilism = lack of any objective truth/value, and the denial of any human-imbued meaning as valid (which is what differentiates it from existentialism).
The first part I can agree with, the second part is just nonsense. The two premises cancel each other out- if there is no objective truth there is no criteria by which to judge it as "valid" or "invalid."
The problem is that nihilism does not have one accepted universal definition.
I call myself a nihilist in the sense that I don't believe in objective morality or intrinsic meaning to anything. I disagree with the often held nihilistic belief that there is no objective truth because I believe science is a competent explanation of the world.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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Society
Mmmm... pizza



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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: deCypher]
#14214059 - 03/31/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
quinn said:
Quote:
deCypher said: existentialism > nihilism
how so? 
Well, instead of wallowing in angsty misery about how nothing has meaning, you get the opportunity to create your own meaning and, consequently, happiness/fulfillment. 
What about existential nihilism?
-------------------- Delicious Pizza
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: 4896744]
#14214104 - 03/31/11 10:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
iThink said: The problem is that nihilism does not have one accepted universal definition.
I call myself a nihilist in the sense that I don't believe in objective morality or intrinsic meaning to anything. I disagree with the often held nihilistic belief that there is no objective truth because I believe science is a competent explanation of the world.
As far as I'm aware, the distinction between nihilism and existentialism is that nihilism does not accept human meaning as valid.
That doesn't make any sense- if there is no objective meaning, then whatever meaning humans apply becomes valid by default. You can't claim that there's no right answer but then claim everybody else is wrong. 
Also, science is not objective, as much as it tries to be so. It is impossible for observers to entirely remove themselves from the experiment; the very act of measurement changes the experiment.
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4896744
Small Town Girl


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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14214647 - 03/31/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
iThink said: The problem is that nihilism does not have one accepted universal definition.
I call myself a nihilist in the sense that I don't believe in objective morality or intrinsic meaning to anything. I disagree with the often held nihilistic belief that there is no objective truth because I believe science is a competent explanation of the world.
As far as I'm aware, the distinction between nihilism and existentialism is that nihilism does not accept human meaning as valid.
That doesn't make any sense- if there is no objective meaning, then whatever meaning humans apply becomes valid by default. You can't claim that there's no right answer but then claim everybody else is wrong. 
Also, science is not objective, as much as it tries to be so. It is impossible for observers to entirely remove themselves from the experiment; the very act of measurement changes the experiment.
Science has subjective elements due to the nature of observing. However, the scientific laws we have always hold solid and have allowed for a great many inventions. This observable application of the knowledge shows an objective system at the base of things.
Also, when saying human meaning is not valid, the point is not that there is no objectivity, but that personal meanings applied to things are not valid/objective beyond those concerning the impersonal flow of matter.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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