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OfflineNetDiver
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Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead.
    #14200397 - 03/28/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

As long as you take actions in the world, and have to deal with the consequences, they have a very real, concrete meaning to you, in the most basic sense. Searching for a magical purpose above and beyond that may be futile, but that doesn't mean that there is no purpose- it simply means the purpose is proportionate to the situation. If I got up to get a sandwich from the fridge, you wouldn't say I got up to save the Universe, but you also wouldn't say I got up for no reason. I got up to get a sandwich, no more, no less.

So, the only way that your life holds no meaning or value is if you never have to deal with the consequences of any action you take, which is only true if you're dead.


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Edited by NetDiver (03/28/11 09:27 PM)

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InvisibleSalomon
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14200723 - 03/28/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

So, the only way that your life holds no meaning or value is if you never have to deal with the consequences of any action you take





so because i feel angry at the pain of a nail protruding through my foot (dealing with consequence) after i shot myself in the foot with a nail gun (taking action) then my life must have some sort of meaning or value because of such?


:hmm:



nothing has meaning or value, as all applications of such, to anything, is doing so from a subjective point of view. that's why morals and ethics are based on belief.


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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Salomon]
    #14200771 - 03/28/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

my dogs are both nihilists.

from what i have observed they seem to believe in nothing. they dont aspire for anything or a higher purpose. they dont concern themselves with 'the consequences of their actions' they just sorta do whatever they are feeling like...

they seem to have fun tho  :birthday:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver] * 1
    #14201015 - 03/28/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

existentialism > nihilism


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Salomon]
    #14201179 - 03/28/11 11:17 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Salomon said:
so because i feel angry at the pain of a nail protruding through my foot (dealing with consequence) after i shot myself in the foot with a nail gun (taking action) then my life must have some sort of meaning or value because of such?



Well, yeah. It has the meaning of you being in pain. Deep or profound? No. But also more than nothing. Nothing can't feel pain, or decide to be more careful with nail guns in the future.

Quote:

nothing has meaning or value, as all applications of such, to anything, is doing so from a subjective point of view. that's why morals and ethics are based on belief.



Why does subjective = worthless?


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #14201271 - 03/28/11 11:30 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
existentialism > nihilism




how so? :strokebeard:


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14201416 - 03/28/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Well, yeah. It has the meaning of you being in pain. Deep or profound? No. But also more than nothing.

Nothing can't feel pain, or decide to be more careful with nail guns in the future.





why does pain need to be felt by some thing?

cant feeling pain just be feeling pain?


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InvisibleSalomon
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14201458 - 03/29/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:

Salomon said:
so because i feel angry at the pain of a nail protruding through my foot (dealing with consequence) after i shot myself in the foot with a nail gun (taking action) then my life must have some sort of meaning or value because of such?



Well, yeah. It has the meaning of you being in pain. Deep or profound? No. But also more than nothing. Nothing can't feel pain, or decide to be more careful with nail guns in the future.







feeling the pain means that you have functioning nerves that react to being shot with a nail and a functioning brain that interprets the messages from those nerves.



i should have changed my wording and brought this up in my first reply, but i think you confuse meaning and purpose.


meaning is the "reason why something has happened"

purpose is the "intention for something that has happened"



from an evolutionary stand point, pain has a reason but not a purpose. evolution did not intend for the sensation to come about, it came about just as any other organic function, through natural selection.

granted, something like the selective breeding of corn that yielded a larger sized crop is an example of purpose.


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EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: quinn] * 1
    #14201535 - 03/29/11 12:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
existentialism > nihilism




how so? :strokebeard:




Well, instead of wallowing in angsty misery about how nothing has meaning, you get the opportunity to create your own meaning and, consequently, happiness/fulfillment.  :smile2:


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: deCypher]
    #14201632 - 03/29/11 12:49 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:emocry:
true that...


but accepting meaninglessness would not necessarily lead to misery or wallowing...

in fact i would think the emo wallowers would have not fully accepted their own meaninglessness...  if they had what would they be wallowing about?

:smoking:


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: quinn] * 1
    #14201698 - 03/29/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I look at it this way, eventually I'll become a nihilist



it's not like that is unique, just have a look at the many senile bastards out there (icelander, et al)










the facts of life/biology/etc are such that emergence as a cognitive agent is an extremely preloaded phenomenon and freedom is ultimately a farce and the nihilistic death impulse really speaks via the ironic potency of the human emotion which can be ensnared conceptually... it almost seems like we are both gullible to biological factors and victim to beliefs structured by other homosapiens all which dress up and foster in at least some way the continuance of some vague primal yearning towards visceral power made apparent through the myriad of life forms who have emerged from the sludge, but this one can be tripped up, cued by thought or perhaps oppression......






butttttt... nihilism is a catch phrase really, and that is what the op is sort of trying to capture.







but it can be a reality... those that enter into the all powerful shit tornado churning full of other shit flinging monkeys knowing all too well that even when the shit stops flying there is going to be shit all to pay for it, slip up - you know, those with shit for brains, who only see that the last shit show results in becoming a big steaming shit pile yourself, tend to pickin up the DRINK a bit...

:lahey:


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Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (03/29/11 03:48 PM)

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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Salomon]
    #14201704 - 03/29/11 01:10 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Salomon said:
feeling the pain means that you have functioning nerves that react to being shot with a nail and a functioning brain that interprets the messages from those nerves.



Right, not to mention our ability to describe it as "pain" and place it into the context of our life and actions. "This is pain, and I want to avoid it." That desire for avoidance influences your future actions. It had an impact in the way you perceive and live your life- it grants a purpose to certain actions (such as avoiding nail guns).

Nihilism seems to make the claim that the lack of a transcendent purpose means that there is no purpose, which I think is just a categorical error. There is no meaning beyond human perception, but there couldn't ever possibly be, because the very idea of "meaning" was invented by humans! Thus, whatever we judge to be meaningful is, in the most absolute sense.

Quote:


i should have changed my wording and brought this up in my first reply, but i think you confuse meaning and purpose.


meaning is the "reason why something has happened"

purpose is the "intention for something that has happened"



from an evolutionary stand point, pain has a reason but not a purpose. evolution did not intend for the sensation to come about, it came about just as any other organic function, through natural selection.

granted, something like the selective breeding of corn that yielded a larger sized crop is an example of purpose.



Okay, but I think that distinction between "meaning" and "purpose" is fairly arbitrary. If you're going to make such a distinction, you might as well state that because we are entirely physical entities, whose actions have been determined by genetics and society (which was also genetic in origin), that not only do all of our actions lack purpose, our actions are not even really actions- they're nothing.

But that picture is wildly different from what our perception tells us- that we take specific actions with a purpose, to achieve a desired end. That's the every-day world in which we live, where actions have real, concrete consequences that affect us.

And if you're going to reply with "our perception gives us a false/illusory sense of meaning," then I would respond with "if the meaning is illusory, then what is the real picture? Wouldn't that be the exact objective purpose/meaning that you're claiming doesn't exist?"

The argument can be summed up as follows:

1. The subjective meaning with which we imbue life is only false if there is another truth that is objectively correct instead.

2. If no such truth exists, we are able to give our own lives meaning in the fullest sense of the word. Existentialism is correct and nihilism is false.

If such a truth does exist, then there is an objective, intrinsic truth to the Universe, and nihilism is false.

3. Therefore, nihilism is false.

Edited by NetDiver (03/29/11 01:22 AM)

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14204190 - 03/29/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i wonder if youre confounding nihilism

it is perhaps best indicated by a biological entity's intention to be absolved from the chains of life

it isn't so much as laziness as it is real degenerative apathy towards health

it is on a continuum, obviously

what is a real nihilist? im not sure...

i wonder if the suicidal are the best examples, but it seems that many of the suicidal are driven to their state by social influences and vanity, perhaps total apathy wouldnt give into those traps

:shrug:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14204199 - 03/29/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If I got up to get a sandwich from the fridge,




I got up to get a sammich, but was so stoned, I forgot why I got up and then sat back down.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14204213 - 03/29/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:wtfsonic:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: andrewss]
    #14204256 - 03/29/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, Ok! So I wasn't stoned and just had a senior moment. :mad:


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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: andrewss]
    #14204268 - 03/29/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
i wonder if youre confounding nihilism

it is perhaps best indicated by a biological entity's intention to be absolved from the chains of life

it isn't so much as laziness as it is real degenerative apathy towards health

it is on a continuum, obviously

what is a real nihilist? im not sure...

i wonder if the suicidal are the best examples, but it seems that many of the suicidal are driven to their state by social influences and vanity, perhaps total apathy wouldnt give into those traps

:shrug:



From what I understand, nihilism = lack of any objective truth/value, and the denial of any human-imbued meaning as valid (which is what differentiates it from existentialism).

The first part I can agree with, the second part is just nonsense. The two premises cancel each other out- if there is no objective truth there is no criteria by which to judge it as "valid" or "invalid."


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14204288 - 03/29/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The only decent philosophy is the philosophy of "My god! All these years I've just been eating and fucking and I still don't have a fucking clue what's going on!"


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
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OfflineNetDiver
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #14204327 - 03/29/11 03:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, but my point is that it's silly to deny that eating and fucking occur for a reason.

They occur because you're hungry/horny. Is that a deep magical reason? No, but it's the reason that fits the situation.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
    #14204406 - 03/29/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

True. There is no point to be made really, things just are. Imply it's meaningless and you are already saying you know something about it.

Here's a couple of zen/nilhism quotes I like.

"Everything is nothing including nothing"

"The paradox is that there is no paradox"


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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