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OfflinexFrockx
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Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity?
    #14202643 - 03/29/11 08:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"If you judge a fish by how well it can climb a tree, it will spend its entire life as an idiot"

We use our bodies to do things, like digging holes, eating, talking, and reading. We don't need to do things like these, and when we do them we don't need to do them a certain way, because we never had to do them in the first place.

Now, lets say I am reading aloud, very slowly. Someone else is there witnessing this happen, and they take from this more than the simple fact that I am doing what I am doing, and that what is happening exists, they take from it that I am a stupid person, and must be, for reading so slowly.

But what is stupid? What is possessed by a person that makes them stupid? What is the mark? In my experience I have never found one. What I have found, however, are people either proposing or concluding that there is one. That stupidity does exist in the world.

I disagree, or at least, cannot find what these people are talking about, even when I am the one claiming it exists.

Let's say that stupidity means poor intellect. By what standard do we say that something is poor? Who decides the boundaries with which we frame this perception? We all can, but what are the boundaries here, actually? Are they there, actually? Can we find them along with swings at a playground? Can we put them in our pockets, to save for later use? Or are they but divisions we make, like the white light after its gone through a prism?

I don't know.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14203509 - 03/29/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The guy that cut off a tree limb with himself on it causing serious injury was very stoopid because I am fairly certain he had a basic grasp of gravity and the idea of support and he totally disregarded them.

Stupidity to me, is having knowledge of something and disregarding it.

I had a friend who rode his motorcycle at 70 mph in the breakdown lane during a dead stop traffic jam. Need I tell you the result or can you guess the probable outcome?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14203724 - 03/29/11 01:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wheelchair?


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14203778 - 03/29/11 01:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, he got majorly fucked up when a car pulled in front of him. This is a perfect example of 'stoopid' because it was fairly predictable as a possibility.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14203975 - 03/29/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

There's a reason I never rode more than a couple times.  I had a neighbor a few years back who apparently didn't fully stow the kick stand in the upright position properly.  It dropped down and he got catapulted into a guardrail.  'Chair.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14204381 - 03/29/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Stupidity to me, is having knowledge of something and disregarding it."

So when do we have knowledge of something? Did you friend on the motorcycle know what would happen? Did the person in the tree know what would happen?

They probably didn't, or perhaps they "knew" something else that lead them to believe that the most probable outcome would not be the case.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14204767 - 03/29/11 05:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i think orgone was talking more about ignoring the obvious because of ego.

like thinking 'i am invincible' because you dont like the fact that you obviously arent. and then driving 70 in the breakdown lane.

is pretty stupid.

ego leads to 'disregarding what you know' i think.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14208454 - 03/30/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:

But what is stupid?




a relative lack of intelligence

intelligence being the ability to reason, comprehend things, understand relationships between things


Quote:

What is possessed by a person that makes them stupid?




intelligence that is sufficiently subnormal


Quote:

In my experience I have never found one.




people seem to understand the word in my experience.  It seems strange that you've not found intelligence less than a given level to be stupid: it seems to be the general understanding.




Quote:

Let's say that stupidity means poor intellect. By what standard do we say that something is poor?




What does it matter?  That the metric is undefined or arbitrary doesn't mean the cocnept doesn't exist.  Temperature exists regardless of your knowledge of a particular metric for such, or even regardless of the existance of a metric of such. 

Quote:

Who decides the boundaries with which we frame this perception?




we

Quote:

We all can, but what are the boundaries here, actually? Are they there, actually? Can we find them along with swings at a playground? Can we put them in our pockets, to save for later use? Or are they but divisions we make, like the white light after its gone through a prism?




?

The divisions are intengible, so no you can not put them in your pocket. 

The boundries vary- I don't see what it matters, particularly, and I don't beleive you've shown how this matters.


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14210061 - 03/30/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Stupidity is relative but a pretty clear thing, we are social animals
with very little threat to our existence, so if you can function well
in society, you're smart, if not you aren't. If people can take advantage
of you time and time again, you're not the brightest bulb in the tree...

Also it's strange you say you don't know what stupidity is, remember it's
hard to see a hole while you're standing in it, if you got that you're in
the clear :lol:


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: quinn]
    #14211357 - 03/30/11 07:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What makes that action stupid? It is what it is.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14211369 - 03/30/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How do you determine what it means to function "well" in society? Does this mean personal happiness, positive opinions from others, spermcount, what?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14211396 - 03/30/11 07:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"a relative lack of intelligence

intelligence being the ability to reason, comprehend things, understand relationships between things"

So lets say someone is pointing a gun at me and I understand the relationship between the bullet and my face, I comprehend what that relationship means to me, and I reason that I have no reason not to willingly submit to that fate, am I, according to your definition, still intelligent when I allow myself to pull the trigger?

"What does it matter?  That the metric is undefined or arbitrary doesn't mean the cocnept doesn't exist.  Temperature exists regardless of your knowledge of a particular metric for such, or even regardless of the existance of a metric of such."

Intelligence is not temperature, intelligence is a subjective determination based on a comparison made by people in many different ways that are not all the same. If a hundred people met the same person, they could all disagree on how intelligent someone was, and there would never be any way to determine who was right, or even who was closer to the truth. At least with temperature, there is the temperature to be measured. Temperature is a property of things. Intelligence is something we make judgments about based on behavior. Behavior, which is is a property of things, is the equivalent to temperature in terms of being something that actually exists to be observed.

TLDR: Intelligence is not like temperature, if anything intelligence is like how hot/cold you feel it is, not something that is objective. How we decide who is intelligent is as much about what they do as it is about what we already believe when we determine what to think about it.


Edited by xFrockx (03/30/11 07:21 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14211456 - 03/30/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I wouldn't think it evidence of a lack of intelligence. 

While it could be confused as such, this confusion doesn't mean the concept of intelligence is stupid, just that it can be difficult to measure due to the usual problems, in this case projection of one's beliefs and desires onto others.

I would think the fact that you correctly understood the situation is evidence of compotent evaluation, which could not support a finding of the response not being intelligent.  Some may think it strange, but making an unusual or disagreeable decision seems a seperate issue to me- all intelligence is is the ability to understand the situation and draw the appropriate conclusion: what you do with that information is inconsequential.

(for example, someone taking self-defeating actions in anger or sadness might be casually called stupid, but I would think its not: just an example of someone succumbing to emotion over reason.  Evidence of poor intelligence would have to come from situations where the person didn't understand the situation, not where they disregarded it for emotional reasons or simply came to a different conclusion about the best outcome).  The result may be the same, but then the concept of intelligence doesn't seem to have anything to say about it providing the intelligent with better outcomes.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14211519 - 03/30/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"While it could be confused as such, this confusion doesn't mean the concept of intelligence is stupid"

I don't know if the concept of intelligence is stupid, if it were stupid, how could it be stupid? I think this sentence here is kindof a wash. I'm not calling anything stupid. Questioning things, sure, but calling the idea of intelligence stupid? Nope, that would seem to be doing exactly what I claim to not fully understand.

"just that it can be difficult to measure due to the usual problems, in this case projection of one's beliefs and desires onto others."

Just difficult to measure? Where is the objectivity in determining what it means to be intelligent? How can any concept of intelligence be free of the definer's own beliefs and desires?

"all intelligence is is the ability to understand the situation and draw the appropriate conclusion: what you do with that information is inconsequential."

Why is it? Many people would disagree here, like Orgone. He said the cyclist was stupid for ignoring what he knew. Who is right, you or him? Or am I right to be wondering if anyone is right here?

"someone taking self-defeating actions in anger or sadness might be casually called stupid"

What is the difference between the casual uses of "stupid" and "smart" and the formal uses of the words? Which one is the one that really means "stupid"? How do we know this, aside from it being something that we know to be held among many other people? Is this mass gathering of  opinion all that sustains these views? If so, does this make them true? What about if you are in a room with only people who don't believe in making these subjective determinations based on social constructs? Are these determinations still true then?


Edited by xFrockx (03/30/11 07:34 PM)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14212568 - 03/30/11 11:04 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

mass opinion doesn't make truth in my opinion, either

I don't know what stupid is either. I would think getting yourself killed by accident when the person could have prevented their death (by thinking and then not doing something, or doing something different) would be stupid. If the person decides to commit suicide and has a reason that's not as stupid because of intention/thought influencing he decision to die.

You could easily argue with this and I expect you to. But I think that dying is stupid. It's natural, and we are "dying" right now, but actually getting yourself killed from lack of reasoning would be the only thing I can think of that can be universally called stupid when dealing with living beings.

You say then that the person who died from their own action didn't KNOW they were going to die from it. This is true. But we do know that eventually we will die, at least in this form. We know that, and we know we are alive. So with that knowledge, it's "stupid" to kill yourself (without intention) when it could have been prevented

Edit: Actually I don't know if we really KNOW we will die. Freud seemed to think we don't. We don't have experience in the knowledge of our own death, but still we must realize we will die, since we are alive, and it's observable and objectively true that all living things have to die.


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Edited by mikeisapro (03/30/11 11:15 PM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: mikeisapro]
    #14212697 - 03/30/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"While it could be confused as such, this confusion doesn't mean the concept of intelligence is stupid"

I don't know if the concept of intelligence is stupid, if it were stupid, how could it be stupid? I think this sentence here is kindof a wash. I'm not calling anything stupid. Questioning things, sure, but calling the idea of intelligence stupid? Nope, that would seem to be doing exactly what I claim to not fully understand.





I should have used a different word than stupid to describe the concept: meaningless or not useful would perhaps be better terms.

I wasn't supposing you did call anything stupid: I'm saying only what I've said.  It can be difficult to determine if an actor made an intelligent, informed, rational decision, but this doesn't denigrate the concept of intelligence thereby- that was my point.


Quote:

"just that it can be difficult to measure due to the usual problems, in this case projection of one's beliefs and desires onto others."

Just difficult to measure? Where is the objectivity in determining what it means to be intelligent? How can any concept of intelligence be free of the definer's own beliefs and desires?




Objectivity can be derived from objective measures: tests such as IQ tests (that apparently  your a racist if you put any stock in, according to some on this forum) and so forth.

I don't think you can obtain useful values of intelligence that are independent of people's view of such.  While you could define intelligence independent of anyone else's subjective views and with objective criteria, such as performance in some situation, it would be difficult to see how you could obtain values that are independent of some methodology which requires subjective judgment calls at least in defining the thing to be measured, the methodology.

This inherent basal level of subjectivity doesn't seem to be too problematic though.  It is sufficient to obtain relative values correlated to intelligence qualities, such as IQ tests do, ideally. Without being perfect or objectively defined, they are still useful and reliable.

That a comprehensive or exclusive definition of intelligence seems impossible to arrive at doesn't mean that ad hoc definitions can't be useful (again, this seems contrary to some people's views as expressed in another thread)


Quote:


"all intelligence is is the ability to understand the situation and draw the appropriate conclusion: what you do with that information is inconsequential."

Why is it? Many people would disagree here, like Orgone. He said the cyclist was stupid for ignoring what he knew. Who is right, you or him? Or am I right to be wondering if anyone is right here?




The term has many different meanings in common parlance.  My definition was of the quality you seemed to be asking of.  The word also means other things and is often used to describe poor judgment, silly decisions, et cet. This seems to reinforce the value of defining terms at the outset and of adopting terms of art with definite meanings in a field, perhaps without meanings in the casual language.

I imagine Orgone and I are both correct, though I think my definition is appropriate for the context in which you asked for such (i.e. I think it was this definition of intelligence that was relevant to your question).




Quote:

"someone taking self-defeating actions in anger or sadness might be casually called stupid"

What is the difference between the casual uses of "stupid" and "smart" and the formal uses of the words? Which one is the one that really means "stupid"? How do we know this, aside from it being something that we know to be held among many other people? Is this mass gathering of  opinion all that sustains these views? If so, does this make them true? What about if you are in a room with only people who don't believe in making these subjective determinations based on social constructs? Are these determinations still true then?





As described above, stupid can be a quality of a person or a word used to describe the quality of an act/actor which is similar to qualities expressed by a stupid person.  The later definition is lableing stupid those things having qualities similar to those stereotypical of someone who is stupid: they exhibit similarities to acts expected of someone with subnormal intelligence.  (a similar example is calling an act retarded whiich only means it was an act metaphorically compared to something a retarded person might do) Both definitions are valid, though, again, I believe my definition is correct for the context in which you asked.  Stupid as a personal charecteristic is descriptive of subnormal intelligence.

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
mass opinion doesn't make truth in my opinion, either





not necessarily, but it may: words are defined by their usage and mass opinion, usage, can define words.  Again, this is a good reason for specialized terminology or defined terms: so the meaning is clear and the language does not become a burden to the expression of an idea.


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14213511 - 03/31/11 06:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do you determine what it means to function "well" in society? Does this mean personal happiness, positive opinions from others, spermcount, what?




Now that's an easy one, if you can fulfill all the needs your
external world allows to than you are smart. The less you
can the dumber you are. And since our external world is pretty
much made of other people, it's functioning in society that
would be a good indicator of that.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14213929 - 03/31/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What are needs? Is there really such a thing as needs? Or do we just have wants that we will kill to fulfill?

Also, if I can provide for all my needs but I can't read or understand a bus schedule, am I still smart by your definition?


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14213945 - 03/31/11 09:28 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"I wasn't supposing you did call anything stupid: I'm saying only what I've said.  It can be difficult to determine if an actor made an intelligent, informed, rational decision, but this doesn't denigrate the concept of intelligence thereby- that was my point."

Denigrate? We haven't even decided what the concept of intelligence means yet. Many people have thrown their hats in only to create more confusion on the matter. Do we/Can we ever truly define intelligence in such a way that all the other definitions will agree with the one, true definition? I would think not, since many definitions of it contradict, or wholly talk about different things.

See, John, I think your posts indicate that you want words to actually have a real meaning that has some authority, but in language the only authority comes from the masses. Arguing like that is fallacious, so arguing that words have meaning based on mass use is also fallacious. Words are like flags, they can mean anything absent of context. We have the ability to make these signals to communicate, but they aren't tied down. Even dictionaries are merely jello in the water of language. They only serve to bind the chaos to some small extent, but in truth they have no authority.

We can't legitimately bootstrap our way out of this problem. The best we can do to uphold the conventions is to treat them as the truth ourselves, if we can even decide which convention is the one were holding. Its just a big confidence cluster-fuck.


Edited by xFrockx (03/31/11 09:32 AM)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14214159 - 03/31/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
mass opinion doesn't make truth in my opinion, either





not necessarily, but it may: words are defined by their usage and mass opinion, usage, can define words.  Again, this is a good reason for specialized terminology or defined terms: so the meaning is clear and the language does not become a burden to the expression of an idea.



Like frock said language is just sophisticated symbols used to express meaning, not meaning in itself. The language can be clear an articulated well but the words still don't have real, intrinsic meaning. It illuminates truth and meaning but it also confines it.

Personally treating conventions as "truths" allows us to get along with society. Truths are interpretations. So how can there be an objective measure of stupidity and intelligence if truth is subjective and interpretative. But, in objective reality all living things die.  So for a sentient being that's living to die by their own action or inaction when they could have prevented it would be stupid.


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14214576 - 03/31/11 12:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What are needs? Is there really such a thing as needs? Or do we just have wants that we will kill to fulfill?

Also, if I can provide for all my needs but I can't read or understand a bus schedule, am I still smart by your definition?




What the hell are wants? And what do we kill to fulfill? Do we kill the wants? Do they look something
like little ewoks? 'cause that's what they sound like...:rofl2:
And to answer you're question, no, we probably don't have needs, humans have been living an illusion
for thousands of years with all the water and food business, nevermind such luxuries as love, shelter,
entertainment and all the other crap...:facepalm:

And let me answer you with a question: do you think you can provide for your most basic needs wants
without being able to do the equivalent in mental effort of reading and understanding a bus schedule?


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14214685 - 03/31/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Good question, I don't know what wants are.

"And to answer you're question, no, we probably don't have needs, humans have been living an illusion
for thousands of years with all the water and food business, nevermind such luxuries as love, shelter,"

Yeah basically.

"And let me answer you with a question: do you think you can provide for your most basic needs wants
without being able to do the equivalent in mental effort of reading and understanding a bus schedule?"

Yeah definitely. If not I could adjust what I want out of life to suit what I could do. What is your point? You think that your definition holds water? Its not a cup dude.


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14214707 - 03/31/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I drink water with a glass...:confused2:

Dude I said basic needs...you can't adjust not to want food/water (in a cup, definition or a glass, irrelevant)

Think of a plausible scenario where you could fulfill those basic needs without being capable
of the mental effort necessary to read/understand a bus schedule...you probably would
have a hard time understanding what a job is...


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14214794 - 03/31/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If I am a dog I can met my basic needs without those abilities. Does that make a dog smarter than a human who can read and write but not pay the bills?


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14214858 - 03/31/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Does not paying your bills mean you can't satisfy your basic needs?

And you didn't think of a plausible scenario yet...


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14216816 - 03/31/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do you determine what it means to function "well" in society? Does this mean personal happiness, positive opinions from others, spermcount, what?




Now that's an easy one, if you can fulfill all the needs your
external world allows to than you are smart. The less you
can the dumber you are. And since our external world is pretty
much made of other people, it's functioning in society that
would be a good indicator of that.




Of course, not everyone needs to be in the world that is constructed by society and would rather live on the fringes...:rasta:


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14217615 - 03/31/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Does not paying your bills mean you can't satisfy your basic needs?"

In some cases it definitely does. How about if you are a scientist living in the woods without any wilderness experience, and you starve? Smart or dumb?


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14218683 - 04/01/11 02:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Dumb as fuck...:lol:...why would you go into the wilderness
if you knew you couldn't survive there...wait...

it depends really...if you know what you want to do and are ok
in paying the price for it, then that would be ok, a noble sacrifice
as it where...


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14218953 - 04/01/11 04:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The degree you can fulfill your will : measured against your luck/karma.

If you can fulfill your will with high resistence, then you're more intelligent or strong.
If you can not get as much done to the same resistence, then you're less intelligent or strong.

Intelligence and strength would differ by the nature of our will and the nature of the resistence. Whether we need to manifest logic or brute strength/endurance to fulfill the will, and to what degree - etc. vs resistence.



My will is fulfilled by competing in an extremely complicated creative environment, brute strength never comes into play - ever, physical and emotion endurance do. At the same time, in order to fulfil my will I also have to survive in a society which is very socially complicated.
The degree by which I fulfill both wants/needs, is the degree by which I am intelligent. Also as it is part of my will, how clearly I can communicate abstract ideas.
In the end logic is such a big part of my life, if one had the same will you could measure how intelligent we are vs eachother - based on our success vs resistence.

Pretty simple


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: ahchela]
    #14218968 - 04/01/11 04:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

With different desires, it would be harder to measure intelligence, but by extension you get the hang of it. We're socially - extremely complicated entities, and if you really want to, you can by extension outline someone's stupidity.
Ofcourse you would need to outline a lot of points about them and others, their will, success and resistence. The contrast of how successful they are in their will vs the resistence they find, would be comparable.

One can tell by factotum, people do many things which require logic. Ones abilities in general can also reflect on their intelligence. If one person can perform within many logical systems well vs high resistence, and someone else cannot perform as well vs the same resistence in a similar amount of logical systems - who is more intelligent?
The man who can do the same things better, everything they do in life.


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Edited by ahchela (04/01/11 04:15 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14219371 - 04/01/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
mass opinion doesn't make truth in my opinion, either





not necessarily, but it may: words are defined by their usage and mass opinion, usage, can define words.  Again, this is a good reason for specialized terminology or defined terms: so the meaning is clear and the language does not become a burden to the expression of an idea.



Like frock said language is just sophisticated symbols used to express meaning, not meaning in itself.




What grounds do you have to believe that?  This means, amongst other things, positive: 

That is "meaning in itself" as revealed by people understanding the meaning of the symbol where it is encountered.  They understand the symbol means positive.

Your premise that language is just sophisticated symbols used to express meaning" doesn't support your conclusion that language is not "meaning in itself".  In fact, you seem to explicitly contradict yourself by your quizzicle statement that the symbols express meaning despite not meaning anything.

If something does not mean anything how can it be understood to be soemthing?  For something to provide information it must be identified and attributed meaning which is then understood.  How can this be otherwise?

Quote:


The language can be clear an articulated well but the words still don't have real, intrinsic meaning. It illuminates truth and meaning but it also confines it.





How does language confine truth?  You just say this but don't explain how this is possible.
Quote:



Personally treating conventions as "truths" allows us to get along with society. Truths are interpretations. So how can there be an objective measure of stupidity and intelligence if truth is subjective and interpretative.




Why not?  You just declare various things then ask how you can have an objective measure of stupidity if it is subjective and interpretative (whatever that is supposed to mean, which isn't clear).  What argument for this claim do you have?

Say stupidity is defined as having aptitude less than the mean population in particular tasks objectively scored (say a written test with multiple choice answers).  The user's answers on all five of the tests reveal him to have aptitude in completing the test of less than the mean, p<.05.   

This is an objective determination, clearly, as the answers require no interpretation nor does the determination that he is below the mean aptitude.

What is your counterargument to this?



Quote:

But, in objective reality all living things die.  So for a sentient being that's living to die by their own action or inaction when they could have prevented it would be stupid.




Quote:

13.step said:
Dumb as fuck...:lol:...why would you go into the wilderness
if you knew you couldn't survive there...wait...

it depends really...if you know what you want to do and are ok
in paying the price for it, then that would be ok, a noble sacrifice
as it where...




What justification do you have for your conclusion?  You just declare apparently ad hoc criteria, it seems, but don't even show how that leads to whatever you define the operative terms to be, let alone the justification for your criteria.

Simply decarling things to be so is not an argument and not philosophically helpful.


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14219443 - 04/01/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"you seem to explicitly contradict yourself by your quizzicle statement that the symbols express meaning despite not meaning anything."

The meaning symbols have is dependent on the situation they are used and the ability of those involved to understand them. If words do have meaning, it could not be simply a function of the words, there is a lot more involved.

Hep farlcalt genir darbrat kolificae burto nunz!


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219499 - 04/01/11 08:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"you seem to explicitly contradict yourself by your quizzicle statement that the symbols express meaning despite not meaning anything."

The meaning symbols have is dependent on the situation they are used and the ability of those involved to understand them. If words do have meaning, it could not be simply a function of the words, there is a lot more involved.




Yes, but that does not support the notion that absent such context that they are meaningless.


That context is required for particular meanings to be unambiguously derived from certain symbols, words, does not stand for the proposition that those symbols, words, have no meaning without such context.  It is this latter that was asserted by the poster, and the argument made does not support it.

As my counterargument demonstrates, it is also incorrect, as the counterargument's veracity is inconsistent with the idea being correct.




Quote:

Hep farlcalt genir darbrat kolificae burto nunz!




I don't know what this means.

(that symbols, words, are not understood by someone does not mean they have no meaning.  For them to have no meaning they would have to have no meaning to everyone: a particular person not understanding the meaning or aware that their is one is not inconsistant with a meaning nevertheless existing)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14219606 - 04/01/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

HAP FAL GAEGUTAS!

"For them to have no meaning they would have to have no meaning to everyone: a particular person not understanding the meaning or aware that their is one is not inconsistant with a meaning nevertheless existing) "

Where is meaning located in any of the above statements?


Edited by xFrockx (04/01/11 08:53 AM)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219660 - 04/01/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

meaning does not have a location, hence I can not state where meaning is located at in the above statement, or anywhere else

the question is not answerable on its terms


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219661 - 04/01/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

fvffffffffffffff


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219667 - 04/01/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What justification do you have for your conclusion?  You just declare apparently ad hoc criteria, it seems, but don't even show how that leads to whatever you define the operative terms to be, let alone the justification for your criteria.





That was just a particular situation I've stated my opinion on, in a particular
discussion with another member I've explained I think pretty well what
my criteria are and why I believe them to be so, you'll have to read them and come
back after that.

Ad hoc criteria...lol...please do elaborate on that...I'm really curios as to why you say that...:lol:
What are operative terms? That notion is new to me.


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14220149 - 04/01/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"If you judge a fish by how well it can climb a tree, it will spend its entire life as an idiot"

We use our bodies to do things, like digging holes, eating, talking, and reading. We don't need to do things like these, and when we do them we don't need to do them a certain way, because we never had to do them in the first place.

Now, lets say I am reading aloud, very slowly. Someone else is there witnessing this happen, and they take from this more than the simple fact that I am doing what I am doing, and that what is happening exists, they take from it that I am a stupid person, and must be, for reading so slowly.

But what is stupid? What is possessed by a person that makes them stupid? What is the mark? In my experience I have never found one. What I have found, however, are people either proposing or concluding that there is one. That stupidity does exist in the world.

I disagree, or at least, cannot find what these people are talking about, even when I am the one claiming it exists.

Let's say that stupidity means poor intellect. By what standard do we say that something is poor? Who decides the boundaries with which we frame this perception? We all can, but what are the boundaries here, actually? Are they there, actually? Can we find them along with swings at a playground? Can we put them in our pockets, to save for later use? Or are they but divisions we make, like the white light after its gone through a prism?

I don't know.




There is such thing as stupid and intelligent as long as you define each.


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 4896744]
    #14222514 - 04/01/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:

There is such thing as stupid and intelligent as long as you define each.





:thumbup: getting to the point here


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14222627 - 04/01/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How can meaning exist if you cannot locate it?


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14222733 - 04/01/11 07:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I have conclusive evidence that bull shit exists.

"Do I exists?"
"What is does exists?"
"I am." "Am I?"
"Where is here? Is here?"
"Does meaning have a static location?"

Do not fret, I have conclusive evidence that bull shit exists.


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Psychedelics will not give you a lobotomy, but tv will.


Edited by ahchela (04/01/11 07:11 PM)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: ahchela]
    #14223098 - 04/01/11 08:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It seems like you don't understand something, so you are acting like it doesn't make sense.

What can I help you understand about what I wrote? Do you have any questions about it?


Edited by xFrockx (04/01/11 08:19 PM)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14223141 - 04/01/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry if I came off as a dick, I could have easily just said what I meant to say without poking fun at you.

Theres no need to question the existence of meaning.
On the other hand the meaning of one word can change with circumstances. In the context of the last few comments, stupidity and intelligence would have the meaning given in the contexts in which they are given in different locals or within different social environments.

In a general Western society, someone's general critical thinking abilities tend to be the measure. Their ability to adapt.

So maybe questioning the existence of meaning isn't a bad precursor to a question on the subjectivity of meaning. I would concede that point


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Edited by ahchela (04/01/11 08:27 PM)


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: ahchela]
    #14223158 - 04/01/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Theres no need to question the existence of meaning."

There's no need to assume the existence of meaning. There we're even.


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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14223259 - 04/01/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:hehehe:


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