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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14214576 - 03/31/11 12:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What are needs? Is there really such a thing as needs? Or do we just have wants that we will kill to fulfill?

Also, if I can provide for all my needs but I can't read or understand a bus schedule, am I still smart by your definition?




What the hell are wants? And what do we kill to fulfill? Do we kill the wants? Do they look something
like little ewoks? 'cause that's what they sound like...:rofl2:
And to answer you're question, no, we probably don't have needs, humans have been living an illusion
for thousands of years with all the water and food business, nevermind such luxuries as love, shelter,
entertainment and all the other crap...:facepalm:

And let me answer you with a question: do you think you can provide for your most basic needs wants
without being able to do the equivalent in mental effort of reading and understanding a bus schedule?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14214685 - 03/31/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Good question, I don't know what wants are.

"And to answer you're question, no, we probably don't have needs, humans have been living an illusion
for thousands of years with all the water and food business, nevermind such luxuries as love, shelter,"

Yeah basically.

"And let me answer you with a question: do you think you can provide for your most basic needs wants
without being able to do the equivalent in mental effort of reading and understanding a bus schedule?"

Yeah definitely. If not I could adjust what I want out of life to suit what I could do. What is your point? You think that your definition holds water? Its not a cup dude.


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14214707 - 03/31/11 12:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I drink water with a glass...:confused2:

Dude I said basic needs...you can't adjust not to want food/water (in a cup, definition or a glass, irrelevant)

Think of a plausible scenario where you could fulfill those basic needs without being capable
of the mental effort necessary to read/understand a bus schedule...you probably would
have a hard time understanding what a job is...


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14214794 - 03/31/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If I am a dog I can met my basic needs without those abilities. Does that make a dog smarter than a human who can read and write but not pay the bills?


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14214858 - 03/31/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Does not paying your bills mean you can't satisfy your basic needs?

And you didn't think of a plausible scenario yet...


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OfflineHippieChick8
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14216816 - 03/31/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

13.step said:
Quote:

xFrockx said:
How do you determine what it means to function "well" in society? Does this mean personal happiness, positive opinions from others, spermcount, what?




Now that's an easy one, if you can fulfill all the needs your
external world allows to than you are smart. The less you
can the dumber you are. And since our external world is pretty
much made of other people, it's functioning in society that
would be a good indicator of that.




Of course, not everyone needs to be in the world that is constructed by society and would rather live on the fringes...:rasta:


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14217615 - 03/31/11 09:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Does not paying your bills mean you can't satisfy your basic needs?"

In some cases it definitely does. How about if you are a scientist living in the woods without any wilderness experience, and you starve? Smart or dumb?


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14218683 - 04/01/11 02:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Dumb as fuck...:lol:...why would you go into the wilderness
if you knew you couldn't survive there...wait...

it depends really...if you know what you want to do and are ok
in paying the price for it, then that would be ok, a noble sacrifice
as it where...


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14218953 - 04/01/11 04:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The degree you can fulfill your will : measured against your luck/karma.

If you can fulfill your will with high resistence, then you're more intelligent or strong.
If you can not get as much done to the same resistence, then you're less intelligent or strong.

Intelligence and strength would differ by the nature of our will and the nature of the resistence. Whether we need to manifest logic or brute strength/endurance to fulfill the will, and to what degree - etc. vs resistence.



My will is fulfilled by competing in an extremely complicated creative environment, brute strength never comes into play - ever, physical and emotion endurance do. At the same time, in order to fulfil my will I also have to survive in a society which is very socially complicated.
The degree by which I fulfill both wants/needs, is the degree by which I am intelligent. Also as it is part of my will, how clearly I can communicate abstract ideas.
In the end logic is such a big part of my life, if one had the same will you could measure how intelligent we are vs eachother - based on our success vs resistence.

Pretty simple


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: ahchela]
    #14218968 - 04/01/11 04:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

With different desires, it would be harder to measure intelligence, but by extension you get the hang of it. We're socially - extremely complicated entities, and if you really want to, you can by extension outline someone's stupidity.
Ofcourse you would need to outline a lot of points about them and others, their will, success and resistence. The contrast of how successful they are in their will vs the resistence they find, would be comparable.

One can tell by factotum, people do many things which require logic. Ones abilities in general can also reflect on their intelligence. If one person can perform within many logical systems well vs high resistence, and someone else cannot perform as well vs the same resistence in a similar amount of logical systems - who is more intelligent?
The man who can do the same things better, everything they do in life.


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Edited by ahchela (04/01/11 04:15 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 13.step]
    #14219371 - 04/01/11 07:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

Quote:

mikeisapro said:
mass opinion doesn't make truth in my opinion, either





not necessarily, but it may: words are defined by their usage and mass opinion, usage, can define words.  Again, this is a good reason for specialized terminology or defined terms: so the meaning is clear and the language does not become a burden to the expression of an idea.



Like frock said language is just sophisticated symbols used to express meaning, not meaning in itself.




What grounds do you have to believe that?  This means, amongst other things, positive: 

That is "meaning in itself" as revealed by people understanding the meaning of the symbol where it is encountered.  They understand the symbol means positive.

Your premise that language is just sophisticated symbols used to express meaning" doesn't support your conclusion that language is not "meaning in itself".  In fact, you seem to explicitly contradict yourself by your quizzicle statement that the symbols express meaning despite not meaning anything.

If something does not mean anything how can it be understood to be soemthing?  For something to provide information it must be identified and attributed meaning which is then understood.  How can this be otherwise?

Quote:


The language can be clear an articulated well but the words still don't have real, intrinsic meaning. It illuminates truth and meaning but it also confines it.





How does language confine truth?  You just say this but don't explain how this is possible.
Quote:



Personally treating conventions as "truths" allows us to get along with society. Truths are interpretations. So how can there be an objective measure of stupidity and intelligence if truth is subjective and interpretative.




Why not?  You just declare various things then ask how you can have an objective measure of stupidity if it is subjective and interpretative (whatever that is supposed to mean, which isn't clear).  What argument for this claim do you have?

Say stupidity is defined as having aptitude less than the mean population in particular tasks objectively scored (say a written test with multiple choice answers).  The user's answers on all five of the tests reveal him to have aptitude in completing the test of less than the mean, p<.05.   

This is an objective determination, clearly, as the answers require no interpretation nor does the determination that he is below the mean aptitude.

What is your counterargument to this?



Quote:

But, in objective reality all living things die.  So for a sentient being that's living to die by their own action or inaction when they could have prevented it would be stupid.




Quote:

13.step said:
Dumb as fuck...:lol:...why would you go into the wilderness
if you knew you couldn't survive there...wait...

it depends really...if you know what you want to do and are ok
in paying the price for it, then that would be ok, a noble sacrifice
as it where...




What justification do you have for your conclusion?  You just declare apparently ad hoc criteria, it seems, but don't even show how that leads to whatever you define the operative terms to be, let alone the justification for your criteria.

Simply decarling things to be so is not an argument and not philosophically helpful.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14219443 - 04/01/11 07:57 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"you seem to explicitly contradict yourself by your quizzicle statement that the symbols express meaning despite not meaning anything."

The meaning symbols have is dependent on the situation they are used and the ability of those involved to understand them. If words do have meaning, it could not be simply a function of the words, there is a lot more involved.

Hep farlcalt genir darbrat kolificae burto nunz!


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219499 - 04/01/11 08:16 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"you seem to explicitly contradict yourself by your quizzicle statement that the symbols express meaning despite not meaning anything."

The meaning symbols have is dependent on the situation they are used and the ability of those involved to understand them. If words do have meaning, it could not be simply a function of the words, there is a lot more involved.




Yes, but that does not support the notion that absent such context that they are meaningless.


That context is required for particular meanings to be unambiguously derived from certain symbols, words, does not stand for the proposition that those symbols, words, have no meaning without such context.  It is this latter that was asserted by the poster, and the argument made does not support it.

As my counterargument demonstrates, it is also incorrect, as the counterargument's veracity is inconsistent with the idea being correct.




Quote:

Hep farlcalt genir darbrat kolificae burto nunz!




I don't know what this means.

(that symbols, words, are not understood by someone does not mean they have no meaning.  For them to have no meaning they would have to have no meaning to everyone: a particular person not understanding the meaning or aware that their is one is not inconsistant with a meaning nevertheless existing)


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14219606 - 04/01/11 08:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

HAP FAL GAEGUTAS!

"For them to have no meaning they would have to have no meaning to everyone: a particular person not understanding the meaning or aware that their is one is not inconsistant with a meaning nevertheless existing) "

Where is meaning located in any of the above statements?


Edited by xFrockx (04/01/11 08:53 AM)


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219660 - 04/01/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

meaning does not have a location, hence I can not state where meaning is located at in the above statement, or anywhere else

the question is not answerable on its terms


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OfflineFisherman
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219661 - 04/01/11 09:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

fvffffffffffffff


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Offline13.step
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14219667 - 04/01/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What justification do you have for your conclusion?  You just declare apparently ad hoc criteria, it seems, but don't even show how that leads to whatever you define the operative terms to be, let alone the justification for your criteria.





That was just a particular situation I've stated my opinion on, in a particular
discussion with another member I've explained I think pretty well what
my criteria are and why I believe them to be so, you'll have to read them and come
back after that.

Ad hoc criteria...lol...please do elaborate on that...I'm really curios as to why you say that...:lol:
What are operative terms? That notion is new to me.


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Offline4896744
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: xFrockx]
    #14220149 - 04/01/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"If you judge a fish by how well it can climb a tree, it will spend its entire life as an idiot"

We use our bodies to do things, like digging holes, eating, talking, and reading. We don't need to do things like these, and when we do them we don't need to do them a certain way, because we never had to do them in the first place.

Now, lets say I am reading aloud, very slowly. Someone else is there witnessing this happen, and they take from this more than the simple fact that I am doing what I am doing, and that what is happening exists, they take from it that I am a stupid person, and must be, for reading so slowly.

But what is stupid? What is possessed by a person that makes them stupid? What is the mark? In my experience I have never found one. What I have found, however, are people either proposing or concluding that there is one. That stupidity does exist in the world.

I disagree, or at least, cannot find what these people are talking about, even when I am the one claiming it exists.

Let's say that stupidity means poor intellect. By what standard do we say that something is poor? Who decides the boundaries with which we frame this perception? We all can, but what are the boundaries here, actually? Are they there, actually? Can we find them along with swings at a playground? Can we put them in our pockets, to save for later use? Or are they but divisions we make, like the white light after its gone through a prism?

I don't know.




There is such thing as stupid and intelligent as long as you define each.


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Invisibleahchela
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: 4896744]
    #14222514 - 04/01/11 06:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:

There is such thing as stupid and intelligent as long as you define each.





:thumbup: getting to the point here


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is there such a thing as intelligence or stupidity? [Re: johnm214]
    #14222627 - 04/01/11 06:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

How can meaning exist if you cannot locate it?


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