|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead.
#14200397 - 03/28/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
As long as you take actions in the world, and have to deal with the consequences, they have a very real, concrete meaning to you, in the most basic sense. Searching for a magical purpose above and beyond that may be futile, but that doesn't mean that there is no purpose- it simply means the purpose is proportionate to the situation. If I got up to get a sandwich from the fridge, you wouldn't say I got up to save the Universe, but you also wouldn't say I got up for no reason. I got up to get a sandwich, no more, no less.
So, the only way that your life holds no meaning or value is if you never have to deal with the consequences of any action you take, which is only true if you're dead.
Edited by NetDiver (03/28/11 09:27 PM)
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14200723 - 03/28/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
So, the only way that your life holds no meaning or value is if you never have to deal with the consequences of any action you take
so because i feel angry at the pain of a nail protruding through my foot (dealing with consequence) after i shot myself in the foot with a nail gun (taking action) then my life must have some sort of meaning or value because of such?

nothing has meaning or value, as all applications of such, to anything, is doing so from a subjective point of view. that's why morals and ethics are based on belief.
-------------------- EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Salomon]
#14200771 - 03/28/11 10:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
my dogs are both nihilists.
from what i have observed they seem to believe in nothing. they dont aspire for anything or a higher purpose. they dont concern themselves with 'the consequences of their actions' they just sorta do whatever they are feeling like...
they seem to have fun tho
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver] 1
#14201015 - 03/28/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
existentialism > nihilism
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Salomon]
#14201179 - 03/28/11 11:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said: so because i feel angry at the pain of a nail protruding through my foot (dealing with consequence) after i shot myself in the foot with a nail gun (taking action) then my life must have some sort of meaning or value because of such?
Well, yeah. It has the meaning of you being in pain. Deep or profound? No. But also more than nothing. Nothing can't feel pain, or decide to be more careful with nail guns in the future.
Quote:
nothing has meaning or value, as all applications of such, to anything, is doing so from a subjective point of view. that's why morals and ethics are based on belief.
Why does subjective = worthless?
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: deCypher]
#14201271 - 03/28/11 11:30 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said: existentialism > nihilism
how so?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14201416 - 03/28/11 11:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said: Well, yeah. It has the meaning of you being in pain. Deep or profound? No. But also more than nothing.
Nothing can't feel pain, or decide to be more careful with nail guns in the future.
why does pain need to be felt by some thing?
cant feeling pain just be feeling pain?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14201458 - 03/29/11 12:03 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
Salomon said: so because i feel angry at the pain of a nail protruding through my foot (dealing with consequence) after i shot myself in the foot with a nail gun (taking action) then my life must have some sort of meaning or value because of such?
Well, yeah. It has the meaning of you being in pain. Deep or profound? No. But also more than nothing. Nothing can't feel pain, or decide to be more careful with nail guns in the future.
feeling the pain means that you have functioning nerves that react to being shot with a nail and a functioning brain that interprets the messages from those nerves.
i should have changed my wording and brought this up in my first reply, but i think you confuse meaning and purpose.
meaning is the "reason why something has happened"
purpose is the "intention for something that has happened"
from an evolutionary stand point, pain has a reason but not a purpose. evolution did not intend for the sensation to come about, it came about just as any other organic function, through natural selection.
granted, something like the selective breeding of corn that yielded a larger sized crop is an example of purpose.
-------------------- EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: quinn] 1
#14201535 - 03/29/11 12:25 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
quinn said:
Quote:
deCypher said: existentialism > nihilism
how so? 
Well, instead of wallowing in angsty misery about how nothing has meaning, you get the opportunity to create your own meaning and, consequently, happiness/fulfillment.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: deCypher]
#14201632 - 03/29/11 12:49 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
 true that...
but accepting meaninglessness would not necessarily lead to misery or wallowing...
in fact i would think the emo wallowers would have not fully accepted their own meaninglessness... if they had what would they be wallowing about?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: quinn] 1
#14201698 - 03/29/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I look at it this way, eventually I'll become a nihilist
it's not like that is unique, just have a look at the many senile bastards out there (icelander, et al)
the facts of life/biology/etc are such that emergence as a cognitive agent is an extremely preloaded phenomenon and freedom is ultimately a farce and the nihilistic death impulse really speaks via the ironic potency of the human emotion which can be ensnared conceptually... it almost seems like we are both gullible to biological factors and victim to beliefs structured by other homosapiens all which dress up and foster in at least some way the continuance of some vague primal yearning towards visceral power made apparent through the myriad of life forms who have emerged from the sludge, but this one can be tripped up, cued by thought or perhaps oppression......
butttttt... nihilism is a catch phrase really, and that is what the op is sort of trying to capture.
but it can be a reality... those that enter into the all powerful shit tornado churning full of other shit flinging monkeys knowing all too well that even when the shit stops flying there is going to be shit all to pay for it, slip up - you know, those with shit for brains, who only see that the last shit show results in becoming a big steaming shit pile yourself, tend to pickin up the DRINK a bit...
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
Edited by andrewss (03/29/11 03:48 PM)
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Salomon]
#14201704 - 03/29/11 01:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said: feeling the pain means that you have functioning nerves that react to being shot with a nail and a functioning brain that interprets the messages from those nerves.
Right, not to mention our ability to describe it as "pain" and place it into the context of our life and actions. "This is pain, and I want to avoid it." That desire for avoidance influences your future actions. It had an impact in the way you perceive and live your life- it grants a purpose to certain actions (such as avoiding nail guns).
Nihilism seems to make the claim that the lack of a transcendent purpose means that there is no purpose, which I think is just a categorical error. There is no meaning beyond human perception, but there couldn't ever possibly be, because the very idea of "meaning" was invented by humans! Thus, whatever we judge to be meaningful is, in the most absolute sense.
Quote:
i should have changed my wording and brought this up in my first reply, but i think you confuse meaning and purpose.
meaning is the "reason why something has happened"
purpose is the "intention for something that has happened"
from an evolutionary stand point, pain has a reason but not a purpose. evolution did not intend for the sensation to come about, it came about just as any other organic function, through natural selection.
granted, something like the selective breeding of corn that yielded a larger sized crop is an example of purpose.
Okay, but I think that distinction between "meaning" and "purpose" is fairly arbitrary. If you're going to make such a distinction, you might as well state that because we are entirely physical entities, whose actions have been determined by genetics and society (which was also genetic in origin), that not only do all of our actions lack purpose, our actions are not even really actions- they're nothing.
But that picture is wildly different from what our perception tells us- that we take specific actions with a purpose, to achieve a desired end. That's the every-day world in which we live, where actions have real, concrete consequences that affect us.
And if you're going to reply with "our perception gives us a false/illusory sense of meaning," then I would respond with "if the meaning is illusory, then what is the real picture? Wouldn't that be the exact objective purpose/meaning that you're claiming doesn't exist?"
The argument can be summed up as follows:
1. The subjective meaning with which we imbue life is only false if there is another truth that is objectively correct instead.
2. If no such truth exists, we are able to give our own lives meaning in the fullest sense of the word. Existentialism is correct and nihilism is false.
If such a truth does exist, then there is an objective, intrinsic truth to the Universe, and nihilism is false.
3. Therefore, nihilism is false.
Edited by NetDiver (03/29/11 01:22 AM)
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14204190 - 03/29/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
i wonder if youre confounding nihilism
it is perhaps best indicated by a biological entity's intention to be absolved from the chains of life
it isn't so much as laziness as it is real degenerative apathy towards health
it is on a continuum, obviously
what is a real nihilist? im not sure...
i wonder if the suicidal are the best examples, but it seems that many of the suicidal are driven to their state by social influences and vanity, perhaps total apathy wouldnt give into those traps
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14204199 - 03/29/11 03:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If I got up to get a sandwich from the fridge,
I got up to get a sammich, but was so stoned, I forgot why I got up and then sat back down.
--------------------
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
|
|
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: andrewss]
#14204256 - 03/29/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Ok, Ok! So I wasn't stoned and just had a senior moment.
--------------------
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: andrewss]
#14204268 - 03/29/11 03:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
andrewss said: i wonder if youre confounding nihilism
it is perhaps best indicated by a biological entity's intention to be absolved from the chains of life
it isn't so much as laziness as it is real degenerative apathy towards health
it is on a continuum, obviously
what is a real nihilist? im not sure...
i wonder if the suicidal are the best examples, but it seems that many of the suicidal are driven to their state by social influences and vanity, perhaps total apathy wouldnt give into those traps

From what I understand, nihilism = lack of any objective truth/value, and the denial of any human-imbued meaning as valid (which is what differentiates it from existentialism).
The first part I can agree with, the second part is just nonsense. The two premises cancel each other out- if there is no objective truth there is no criteria by which to judge it as "valid" or "invalid."
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14204288 - 03/29/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The only decent philosophy is the philosophy of "My god! All these years I've just been eating and fucking and I still don't have a fucking clue what's going on!"
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204327 - 03/29/11 03:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, but my point is that it's silly to deny that eating and fucking occur for a reason.
They occur because you're hungry/horny. Is that a deep magical reason? No, but it's the reason that fits the situation.
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14204406 - 03/29/11 03:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
True. There is no point to be made really, things just are. Imply it's meaningless and you are already saying you know something about it.
Here's a couple of zen/nilhism quotes I like.
"Everything is nothing including nothing"
"The paradox is that there is no paradox"
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
andrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#14204442 - 03/29/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Lahey: Feel that? Randy: Feel what Mister Lahey? Lahey: The way the shit clings to the air Randy? Randy: Shit clings to the air? Lahey: It’s already started my dear good friend. Randy: What’s started? Lahey: The Shit Blizzard.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204471 - 03/29/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grapefruit said: True. There is no point to be made really, things just are. Imply it's meaningless and you are already saying you know something about it.
Here's a couple of zen/nilhism quotes I like.
"Everything is nothing including nothing"
"The paradox is that there is no paradox"
Those bits o' 'wisdom' just show that Zen is the ultimate mental jerk-off. Ever read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'? The whole book attempts to point to something significant, and in the end all you realize that the author is just mentally ill.
--------------------
Edited by OrgoneConclusion (03/29/11 04:09 PM)
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
Those bits o' 'wisdom' just show that Zen is the ultimate mental jerk-off.
How so? It's saying nothing other than the assumption that there is such a thing as ultimate reality and chasing after our dreams of it is what creates the misery. I personally agree. It's the heart of religious thinking, consumerism, groupism, you name it.
Edit: No I haven't read that book but there is a lot of shit zen out there.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (03/29/11 03:59 PM)
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204599 - 03/29/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I still wanna hear why you disagree with those two quotes. All they are saying is that there is no way to know the nature of reality and any philosophical quest of understanding is futile seeing as the brain is bound to error. Sure science can describe laws that it fits but there's still nothing very certain. Are you claiming you can know reality for sure?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204610 - 03/29/11 04:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
there is no way to know the nature of reality
Why is that not sufficient and clear enough? Why must it be cutesy?
--------------------
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
|
Veiling no-brainers within poetry is the intellectually lazy way to sound philosophical and wise.
In this case though, those zen statements are simply meaningless.
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
|
People write books on it because we are programmed to believe we do know all sorts of things and it takes a long time to undo that assumption.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204635 - 03/29/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
...we are programmed to believe we do know all sorts of things...
Speak for yourself. In my youth I was taught that we as the human race didnt know shit. Only after challenging that programming did I realize that we do in fact know all sorts of things.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204638 - 03/29/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, a whole book is so much clearer than a single concise statement. If only it had pictures and stuff...
--------------------
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14204651 - 03/29/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Speak for yourself. In my youth I was taught that we as the human race didnt know shit.
Perhaps but it's not so for the vast majority of people. Look at nazi germany for evidence of how fervent belief plays out.
Quote:
that we do in fact know all sorts of things.
Other than basic laws and facts such as "my toe hurts" or "fire burns", what? The point is we know nothing of the nature of reality.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Yeah, a whole book is so much clearer than a single concise statement. If only it had pictures and stuff... 
The point is that if you just read the statement then one can just go "oh, that's true" and then move on with all the certainty they previously had about their beliefs in tact.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204671 - 03/29/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The point is we know nothing of the nature of reality.
Nothing? Not true. We can know part of the nature of reality, and though we will never know it in its bare totality that does not in any way negate that which we do know.
(Also, wtf does nazi germany have to do with this? Nice non-sequitur Mr. Godwin...)
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14204682 - 03/29/11 04:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
(Also, wtf does nazi germany have to do with this? Nice non-sequitur Mr. Godwin...)
They fervently believed their socio-political reality tunnel, just one example of it but perhaps the clearest.
Quote:
Nothing? Not true. We can know part of the nature of reality, and though we will never know it in its bare totality that does not in any way negate that which we do know.
Example?
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14204987 - 03/29/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Example?
All of the typical pieces of knowledge that we use on a daily basis. The knowledge that I will feel hungry in a few hours, for example. This is not necessarily the 'true' reality, but it is a window and a glimpse into that which exists in reality. The fact that the bare truth of reality remains hidden from me does not negate this piece of knowledge I have.
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14205134 - 03/29/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Those kind of things are basic facts or basic laws, there's nothing there that can go into making a belief system / reality tunnel, it's just the stuff you need to know. Many people base their whole self around a certain belief system (I am so and so a person who is this and has all these friends).
The argument of the kind of zen I know is that the body doesn't care about any of this kind of stuff, it only cares about what is useful for it's survival. The zen system is a method of trying to throw off the influence of that kind of thing, the more you "practice" it the more all your relationships, hopes and dreams burn away, until you are pretty much nothing more than a survival tool. That's the true meaning of detachment IMO.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: Grapefruit]
#14206175 - 03/29/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grapefruit said: True. There is no point to be made really, things just are. Imply it's meaningless and you are already saying you know something about it.
Here's a couple of zen/nilhism quotes I like.
"Everything is nothing including nothing"
"The paradox is that there is no paradox"

"The Buddha is dry shit on a stick." - Zen Master Ummon
The point of Zen is not that you can't know the ultimate nature of reality, it's that you don't need to.
|
4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14213914 - 03/31/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
andrewss said: i wonder if youre confounding nihilism
it is perhaps best indicated by a biological entity's intention to be absolved from the chains of life
it isn't so much as laziness as it is real degenerative apathy towards health
it is on a continuum, obviously
what is a real nihilist? im not sure...
i wonder if the suicidal are the best examples, but it seems that many of the suicidal are driven to their state by social influences and vanity, perhaps total apathy wouldnt give into those traps

From what I understand, nihilism = lack of any objective truth/value, and the denial of any human-imbued meaning as valid (which is what differentiates it from existentialism).
The first part I can agree with, the second part is just nonsense. The two premises cancel each other out- if there is no objective truth there is no criteria by which to judge it as "valid" or "invalid."
The problem is that nihilism does not have one accepted universal definition.
I call myself a nihilist in the sense that I don't believe in objective morality or intrinsic meaning to anything. I disagree with the often held nihilistic belief that there is no objective truth because I believe science is a competent explanation of the world.
-------------------- Live your Life!
|
Society
Mmmm... pizza



Registered: 07/03/04
Posts: 14,299
Loc:
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: deCypher]
#14214059 - 03/31/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
quinn said:
Quote:
deCypher said: existentialism > nihilism
how so? 
Well, instead of wallowing in angsty misery about how nothing has meaning, you get the opportunity to create your own meaning and, consequently, happiness/fulfillment. 
What about existential nihilism?
-------------------- Delicious Pizza
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: 4896744]
#14214104 - 03/31/11 10:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
iThink said: The problem is that nihilism does not have one accepted universal definition.
I call myself a nihilist in the sense that I don't believe in objective morality or intrinsic meaning to anything. I disagree with the often held nihilistic belief that there is no objective truth because I believe science is a competent explanation of the world.
As far as I'm aware, the distinction between nihilism and existentialism is that nihilism does not accept human meaning as valid.
That doesn't make any sense- if there is no objective meaning, then whatever meaning humans apply becomes valid by default. You can't claim that there's no right answer but then claim everybody else is wrong. 
Also, science is not objective, as much as it tries to be so. It is impossible for observers to entirely remove themselves from the experiment; the very act of measurement changes the experiment.
|
4896744
Small Town Girl


Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: NetDiver]
#14214647 - 03/31/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Quote:
iThink said: The problem is that nihilism does not have one accepted universal definition.
I call myself a nihilist in the sense that I don't believe in objective morality or intrinsic meaning to anything. I disagree with the often held nihilistic belief that there is no objective truth because I believe science is a competent explanation of the world.
As far as I'm aware, the distinction between nihilism and existentialism is that nihilism does not accept human meaning as valid.
That doesn't make any sense- if there is no objective meaning, then whatever meaning humans apply becomes valid by default. You can't claim that there's no right answer but then claim everybody else is wrong. 
Also, science is not objective, as much as it tries to be so. It is impossible for observers to entirely remove themselves from the experiment; the very act of measurement changes the experiment.
Science has subjective elements due to the nature of observing. However, the scientific laws we have always hold solid and have allowed for a great many inventions. This observable application of the knowledge shows an objective system at the base of things.
Also, when saying human meaning is not valid, the point is not that there is no objectivity, but that personal meanings applied to things are not valid/objective beyond those concerning the impersonal flow of matter.
-------------------- Live your Life!
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: 4896744]
#14214653 - 03/31/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Also, science is not objective, as much as it tries to be so. It is impossible for observers to entirely remove themselves from the experiment; the very act of measurement changes the experiment.
How does the second sentence here substantiate the first? I dont think it does.
The act of measuring doesn't change the experiment, the act of measuring is the experiment. "Unperformed experiments have no results."
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest



Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14214662 - 03/31/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The experiment itself is 100% objective but the interpretation can't be. So the laws are true but what you theoretically make of them isn't necessarily.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck


Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: Nihilism is bullshit, unless you're dead. [Re: DieCommie]
#14219964 - 04/01/11 10:34 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
DieCommie said: How does the second sentence here substantiate the first? I dont think it does.
The act of measuring doesn't change the experiment, the act of measuring is the experiment. "Unperformed experiments have no results."
It depends on what we mean when we say "objective." If you mean that the results of experiments are consistent, repeatable, and applicable to our experience, I would agree. But when I say "objective" I mean it in its literal form, of "independent from the subject." Science can't be objective in this sense, because it is impossible for science to be conducted independently of perceiving subjects who apply their own intuitions and belief systems.
|
|